Replace mottled dr

[namelastname112]

I think mottled should be replaced or removed entirely. I played a lot of draconians and i can say that mottled is very bad - breath becomes useless pre-lair, resistance is abysmal, and we already have a +fire apt draconian. I had a few ideas,hit by drai like a shadow/pearl draconian. Shadow can have drain breath, rn+ and necr or stealth apt +2 or something like that. It would also make zot dracs more dangerous - getting hit by drain for living chars and holy breath for undead. Sticky flame really isn't that much of a threat by zot, i don't think people ever died to that. Sorry for my possible grammatical mistakes.

[kuniqs]

Fire magic is cool. They do *not* get negative apts. Sticky flame is one of the best early game spells and you get it for free. It does not scale well, but green draconian breath does not and no one complains.

Mottled is pretty much a melee colour.

[namelastname112]

green dr breath is actually way better, so there is no complains about that. you can even kill undead with it (bug?). mottled dr breath doesn't act like a spell, it misses too much and burn for 3-4 turns or so, it's not much damage to be useful. green dr is also better because of free rpois and stinger. and no negative apts too, so green is way better.

[kuniqs]

Green draconian breath dealing damage is I believe a remnant of times when Mephitic Cloud used to deal minor physical damage on impact. Someone forgot to update it for green draconians.

Or maybe MC still does damage on impact and I'm talking out of my ass?

Mottled draconian breath is made for kiting, so missing is not that big problem.

[namelastname112]

missing is really dissapointing, and kiting with mottled breath isn't really effective - you cant even kill a hydra with it because of giant breath timer. i don't know why we need mottled if there is already much better red colour. +1 fire apt exists on pale too, with no downsides, and while pale resistance isn't good, he get much better breath with a lower timer, and even steam does more damage then mottled dr breath.

[Sar]

I thought mottled sticky can't miss and splashes in melee?

[namelastname112]

it splashes, yes, but it misses. a lot.

[kuniqs]

I was thinking about it today and realized races in Crawl are not supposed to be balanced. Rolling a mottled draconian is like rolling weak demonspawn mutations. I mean, the whole shtick of the race is randomness and if you always get something useful, where's fun in that?

[pumpyscump]

> the whole shtick of the race is randomness

I don't think people are playing it because it might be awful, they're playing it to see which interesting direction their character will be taken.

Put something like this in imo
https://github.com/jeremygurr/dcssca/co ... 711fc3a5e5

[crate]

if mottled really needs a buff just make the breath accuracy higher or something. it would still be less good than red breath, so...

alternate fr: all draconians are brown

[dynast]

Im disgraced, once again.

[Xion350]

The only buff they really need is Sticky flame resistance, and maybe making sticky flame breath being ranged like the monster version which would be unique.

[namelastname112]

They do have sticky flame resistance tho, and it sucks.

[Tiktacy]

So, what your saying is that instead of improving and fixing the current issues, we should scrap it and replace it with something else?

DCSS devs don't just scrap things like that, even things that are consistently problematic and poorly designed that cause immense frustration among the player base with almost no support will go through a mending process in which the developers will try to fix it to make it work. This isn't one of those things, this is not even close to one of those things. So yeah, they aren't going to remove or replace mottled draconians, especially considering how many people actually LIKE mottled draconians, like me and dynast.

Mottled dragons have also been around for a very long time, and I've never seen anyone complain about them. I've seen complaints about acid draconians, I've MADE complaints about acid draconians, and they have received the improvements that they deserve.

I do however think mottled dragons might deserve a slight improvement, but I would suggest making it scale with XL better. That would most likely improve upon some of the complaints people have, but this is pretty low on the list of priority's in my opinion, its basically bikeshedding.

I see you are new to the tavern, so its understandable that you might not be aware of some of these things. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

[namelastname112]

i am new, yes, but i played a lot of drs and just got frustrated enough getting mottled 3 times in a row so i finally decided to share my frustration here. every time i get mottled i'm just tempted to quit, really.

[archaeo]

For what it's worth, namelastname112, I think the Tavern tends to read frustration that takes the form of design proposals as the latter instead of the former. I doubt there's anybody here who hasn't gotten salty over getting the "wrong" Dr color or a bad DS mut or whatever.

If you hate mottled dr, give into that temptation and just quit it! Don't play a game you don't like! There's nothing quite as liberating as hitting ^qyes on a character that you're just frustrated with.

That said, I think you'll understand why people tend to think mottled is at least decent after you get more experience; it's a very functional Dr, not the best, and not the worst, but quite capable.

[crate]

this is why cyc should not be gdd-lite!

[namelastname112]

i woudn't be so sad about mottled if it had shorter breath timer, or had some 14 xl thingy like black/yellow/green. or if breath wasn't missing so much. right now mottled just feels as the worst colour, and i really want it to be changed. altho there is a frustration that speaks in me, yes.

[adozu]

...DCSS devs don't just scrap things like that...

actually they kind of do? not that it is necessarily a bad thing, some stuff just needs to go, but to claim otherwise is incorrect...

i mean, i could say "singularity" for example, or you could name a certain removed race and hear the moans of the tavern, the list is long.

[Lasty]

  Code:

<Lasty_> !lg lasty dr / won s=species o=%
<Sequell> 15/41 games for lasty (dr): 3/3x Purple Draconian [100.00%], 4/6x Mottled Draconian [66.67%], 3/6x White Draconian [50.00%], 1/2x Pale Draconian [50.00%], 3/7x Green Draconian [42.86%], 1/3x Yellow Draconian [33.33%], 0/1x Red Draconian [0.00%], 0/2x Grey Draconian [0.00%], 0/1x Black Draconian [0.00%], 0/10x Draconian [0.00%]

<Lasty_> !lg * dr / won s=species o=% !boring
<Sequell> 1584/250287 games for * (dr): 259/6829x Grey Draconian [3.79%], 203/6748x Red Draconian [3.01%], 193/6818x Green Draconian [2.83%], 183/6792x Purple Draconian [2.69%], 170/6814x White Draconian [2.49%], 158/6772x Mottled Draconian [2.33%], 145/6752x Black Draconian [2.15%], 140/6903x Yellow Draconian [2.03%], 133/6578x Pale Draconian [2.02%], 0/189281x Draconian [0.00%]


Nothin' wrong w/ mottled that I can tell. It's net apts are slightly better than colorless and it gets a strong breath weapon that gets you through the hard part of the game.

[BTA]

its basically bikeshedding.
Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

What is bikeshedding?

Do breathe weapon accuracy improve with throwing skill?

[duvessa]

  Code:

<Lasty_> !lg lasty dr / won s=species o=%
<Sequell> 15/41 games for lasty (dr): 3/3x Purple Draconian [100.00%], 4/6x Mottled Draconian [66.67%], 3/6x White Draconian [50.00%], 1/2x Pale Draconian [50.00%], 3/7x Green Draconian [42.86%], 1/3x Yellow Draconian [33.33%], 0/1x Red Draconian [0.00%], 0/2x Grey Draconian [0.00%], 0/1x Black Draconian [0.00%], 0/10x Draconian [0.00%]

<Lasty_> !lg * dr / won s=species o=% !boring
<Sequell> 1584/250287 games for * (dr): 259/6829x Grey Draconian [3.79%], 203/6748x Red Draconian [3.01%], 193/6818x Green Draconian [2.83%], 183/6792x Purple Draconian [2.69%], 170/6814x White Draconian [2.49%], 158/6772x Mottled Draconian [2.33%], 145/6752x Black Draconian [2.15%], 140/6903x Yellow Draconian [2.03%], 133/6578x Pale Draconian [2.02%], 0/189281x Draconian [0.00%]


Nothin' wrong w/ mottled that I can tell. It's net apts are slightly better than colorless and it gets a strong breath weapon that gets you through the hard part of the game.

Thank you for your contribution, Berder. Since we've resolved this thread, can I point out that halflings really need a nerf? They're way better than spriggans or trolls.

  Code:

-> *sequell* !lg * !boring / won s=species o=%
*Sequell* 40653/4647352 games for * (!boring): 259/6510x Grey Draconian [3.98%], 203/6485x Red Draconian [3.13%], 193/6475x Green Draconian [2.98%], 183/6557x Purple Draconian [2.79%], 170/6494x White Draconian [2.62%], 158/6372x Mottled Draconian [2.48%], 1772/79894x Deep Dwarf [2.22%], 145/6559x Black Draconian [2.21%], 140/6490x Yellow Draconian [2.16%], 133/6199x Pale Draconian [2.15%], 1137/66851x
*Sequell* Centaur [1.70%], 996/60800x Halfling [1.64%], 2726/182184x Gargoyle [1.50%], 6/446x Imp [1.35%], 4317/322905x Minotaur [1.34%], 817/62130x Ghoul [1.31%], 1301/107853x Vine Stalker [1.21%], 18/1531x Hill Dwarf [1.18%], 2176/188144x Hill Orc [1.16%], 899/81729x Demigod [1.10%], 1405/128830x Ogre [1.09%], 1681/166139x Merfolk [1.01%], 1346/135906x Naga [0.99%], 814/83709x Felid [0.97%], 1509/159561x
*Sequell* Troll [0.95%], 223/24939x Lava Orc [0.89%], 944/111911x Formicid [0.84%], 4/481x Salamander [0.83%], 1119/140095x Kobold [0.80%], 798/104173x Tengu [0.77%], 7/929x Lacertilian [0.75%], 1084/146417x Human [0.74%], 1612/226326x Spriggan [0.71%], 22/3151x Gnome [0.70%], 542/77718x Mountain Dwarf [0.70%], 1309/215977x High Elf [0.61%], 3011/498823x Demonspawn [0.60%], 378/63868x Sludge Elf [0.59%],
*Sequell* 1120/189310x Mummy [0.59%], 861/145832x Vampire [0.59%], 1753/324568x Deep Elf [0.54%], 5/990x Elf [0.51%], 167/35364x Kenku [0.47%], 1035/246289x Octopode [0.42%], 21/5430x Grey Elf [0.39%], 14/3720x Ogre-Mage [0.38%], 114/36263x Djinni [0.31%], 2/638x Cherufe [0.31%], 1/345x Grotesk [0.29%], 2/753x Bearkin [0.27%], 1/480x Plutonian [0.21%], 0/155808x Draconian [0.00%], 0/1x Yak [0.00%]

[BTA]

its basically bikeshedding.
Feel free to PM me if you have any "answers".

miss quote

What is bikeshedding?

Parkinson's law of triviality is C. Northcote Parkinson's 1957 argument that members of an organisation give disproportionate weight to trivial issues.[1] He observed that a committee whose job was to approve the plans for a nuclear power plant spent the majority of its time on discussions about relatively minor but easy-to-grasp issues, such as what materials to use for the staff bike-shed, while neglecting the proposed design of the plant itself, which is far more important but also a far more difficult and complex task.

The law has been applied to software development and other activities.[2] The term BIKE_SHEDDING or the bike-shed effect was coined as a metaphor to illuminate the law of triviality; it was popularised in the Berkeley Software Distribution community by the Danish computer developer Poul-Henning Kamp in the mid-1990s[3] and has spread from there to the whole software industry.

[Siegurt]

What is bikeshedding?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality

[dynast]

  Code:

<Lasty_> !lg lasty dr / won s=species o=%
<Sequell> 15/41 games for lasty (dr): 3/3x Purple Draconian [100.00%], 4/6x Mottled Draconian [66.67%], 3/6x White Draconian [50.00%], 1/2x Pale Draconian [50.00%], 3/7x Green Draconian [42.86%], 1/3x Yellow Draconian [33.33%], 0/1x Red Draconian [0.00%], 0/2x Grey Draconian [0.00%], 0/1x Black Draconian [0.00%], 0/10x Draconian [0.00%]

<Lasty_> !lg * dr / won s=species o=% !boring
<Sequell> 1584/250287 games for * (dr): 259/6829x Grey Draconian [3.79%], 203/6748x Red Draconian [3.01%], 193/6818x Green Draconian [2.83%], 183/6792x Purple Draconian [2.69%], 170/6814x White Draconian [2.49%], 158/6772x Mottled Draconian [2.33%], 145/6752x Black Draconian [2.15%], 140/6903x Yellow Draconian [2.03%], 133/6578x Pale Draconian [2.02%], 0/189281x Draconian [0.00%]


Nothin' wrong w/ mottled that I can tell. It's net apts are slightly better than colorless and it gets a strong breath weapon that gets you through the hard part of the game.

Since when do you get to choose your color? Your statistics are random bullshit and you know that. But lets assume they arent:
Black is below because players dont know how to use the breath, yellow is below because players dont know how to use the breath, pale is below because players dont know how to use the breath, colorless is below because players dont know how to use the breath.

[Lasty]

You and duvessa both seem to think I'm claiming something a lot stronger than I actually am by pulling sequell data. I think I've made it clear many times previously that there are many reasons why sequell isn't a strong source of data for statistical analysis. The two queries I threw up don't even tell a coherent story about mottled draconians. My point in that post was that the data, for all its weaknesses, doesn't show mottled being orders of magnitude better or worse than other colors, and that my subjective experience is that they're pretty good.

[dynast]

You didnt make it clear this time, did you? Also, why bring up sequell then? Also, i was just making a joke anyways.

[crate]

you're not going to see mottled draconians being much weaker because they are still draconians, and the defining feature of draconians is they are draconians

anyway mottled breath is very frustrating, i would support an accuracy increase (even if it always hit it would still be worse than red drac breath)

[Tressol]

Mottled coloration in nature is usually a camouflage thing, right?

FR: give mottled draconian camo mutation (or a better Stealth apt, like +1 over regular draconians, but I think camo is a better choice).

Or/also, mottled dragons live in lair/swamp, mostly. Make mottled draconians amphibious!

Or/also sticky flame drops EV, similar to corona (possibly MORE than corona if they lack rFire, since the victim is spazing out on fire). Naturally, this also applies to players who catch fire. Actually, sticky flame already reveals invis, right? So can't we just apply corona anytime anything is on fire?

Edit: according to the wiki, sticky flame status already does as I suggest... Meaning that Mottled Breath is a combat debuff on top of a decent early source of damage. I guess I'm not too experienced with Sticky Flame. :p

Also, fun fact; corona apparently adds to to-hit rolls against the target rather than penalizing EV.

[kuniqs]

It would be cool if mottled breath was a short range, cone-shaped spray to simulate the napalm nature of the attack. It would make it useful against groups as well, and kinda unique.

[duvessa]

Please not even more "cones". Cones don't work in Crawl's geometry.

[Rast]

Since we've resolved this thread, can I point out that halflings really need a nerf? They're way better than spriggans or trolls.

You don't need listgame stats for that. Halflings are really strong. +1 apts in AC/EV/SH, +4 apt in slings, +3 throwing apt in the good versions of crawl... what's not to like?

[archaeo]

+3 throwing apt in the good versions of crawl...

There are good versions of Crawl?

But seriously remove Ha.