Dual Wielding

[bcadren]

I mean this as a standalone question. Though adding it to the game as a whole would be too big of a change; would Dual-Wielding as a race (or god) gimmick be too wild" (NOT proposing what the rest of the race should look like right now, just dual wielding).

From a code perspective there is some difficulty (mostly that wielding two things is outside of the currently allowed (only a single weapon slot, etc.), it would break weapon swapping (a, b), etc.)

From a balance perspective; it'd be stronger than a 2H weapon and allow two brands, but need more Enchant Weapons to get to maximum Armour penetration (also 2x15 [two double swords] might not pierce armour as well as 1x19 [Triple Sword]). In general, even with skills balanced to make it harder to reach mindelay (or a higher mindelay than single wield); it'd probably GENERALLY be more powerful, but still less so than Blade Hands and Dragon Form (which can break 30 base easily (15/15 stats, blade hands and 9 UC is 30 base, but slow); 27 UC 15/15 stats and blades is 48 base.

[crate]

you can't compare uc base damage to weapon base damage, because uc base damage is not multiplied by uc skill whereas weapon base damage is multiplied by weapon skill

for example uc at skill 16 (19 "base damage") gets outdamaged per-hit by quite a bit by a triple sword at skill 16 (19 base damage). Make sure to wear a shield so you don't get confused by offhand punch.

(uc will be faster so it will have higher aveffdam than a +0 unbranded triple sword, but this is to illustrate the skills do not work the same way)

[bcadren]

Suppose that's true but Dragon Form and Blade Hands with High UC are still MUCH more powerful than any weapon, ever.

[dynast]

Most hack'n slash games that have dual wielding options have skills to go with it, making the dual wielding a playstyle choice. Let it be clear i dont see DCSS as a hack'n slash.

[kuniqs]

VS' bite and offhand punch are as close to dual-wielding as it gets.
What's the point anyway? Just use a stupid 2h if you need more damage.

[bcadren]

VS' bite and offhand punch are as close to dual-wielding as it gets.
What's the point anyway? Just use a stupid 2h if you need more damage.

Two brands (or stacking same brand)? Flaming and Flaming would be hilarious against hydras; otherwise Holy Wrath and Antimagic? two pained short blades? Distortion and Chaos? Probably even more dam than 2H (if you had two high tier 1H the total dam between both hits would likely be more; but you'd need twice as many Enchant Weaps to get to max...so likely not get two +9's without Zigging)? IDK. I was mostly saying as a single race's gimmick rather than allowing it to everyone; so yea mostly brand-stacking...though YES stacking an AM weap and a HW one (about the strongest possible combo in extended) is about the same as starting a VS.

[Sprucery]

Suppose that's true but Dragon Form and Blade Hands with High UC are still MUCH more powerful than any weapon, ever.

Try stabbing sometime.

[Hurricos]

Here's how to balance it:

When dual-wielding, the base delay increases by 7 auts, requiring 14 higher weapons skill to reach mindelay. Also give significantly reduced to-hit.

[Lasty]

The game already has a way to offer a trade-off between damage and defense, and it's called two-handed weaponry. All dual-wielding offers that two-handed weapons doesn't is 1) more message spam, 2) a significant complication of code and UI, 3) stat/resist inflation, 4) a feeling that you're doing something cooler somehow, and 5) depending on who proposes it, damage inflation.

Only one of those is not actively bad, and that one really isn't a significant consideration. We really aren't going to ever do dual-wielding, and we're not going to do it because, for crawl, it is almost infinitely more harmful than helpful.

[duvessa]

Can Gyre and Gimble please not be in the game? It has the same issues.

[Lasty]

Agreed. Edit: Well, mostly issues 1 and 2, but yeah.

[bcadren]

So there are no issues. Cool.

To be more specific:

1. Not an issue. It's two messages a turn instead of one. Try summoning a hydra.

2. This is an actual issue, but it's more for programming it in than it is for players.

3. There really isn't much if any stat/resist inflation. Weapon (artifacts) with good resists are vanishingly rare. You'd be more likely to get the shield of resistance or another shield artifact with a 1 hander for that purpose.

4. *shrug* This is flavour.

5. Yes, it's higher damage than a 2H...if it's a race's gimmick (and they give up something else for balance) that's not an issue (similar to ogres with Giant Spiked Clubs).

[dynast]

I fail to see the objective here. Lets say you have dual wielding impremented and balanced into the game, now what?

[bcadren]

I fail to see the objective here. Lets say you have dual wielding impremented and balanced into the game, now what?

*shrug* I don't think every race should get it because it would be a universal boost to extended damage; as a racial gimmick though? ...a more unique "glass-cannon" race than DE or Og, I suppose.

[ydeve]

Other than flavor, how is this an interesting gimmick? What meaningful decisions does it introduce that are actually different from the choice to use a 2h weapon instead of a shield?

[nago]

Why not?

[bcadren]

Other than flavor, how is this an interesting gimmick? What meaningful decisions does it introduce that are actually different from the choice to use a 2h weapon instead of a shield?

Two weapon types with different skill penalty or one...(the two giving better resist combo {artifacts} or more total damage; while the one type requires less skill)...IDK