Why do throw flame and throw frost exist?

[crate]

Since spray is (more reliably) multi-target and also has a strong hex attached it should do very little damage (alternatively, make the hex very weak and make it do sort-of-ok damage, like maybe throw flame damage to each target). The fact that it's even close to IMB (which costs more MP per cast) is ridiculous. Spray with its current hex attached should probably do like at most like 1/4 to 1/3 the damage of IMB, instead of nearly 100% even in the worst reasonable comparison for Spray (half spellpower of IMB).

[Siegurt]

DS's damage formula is 2d(8+P/4) max 50. IMB's is 2d(6+P/6) max 100. )

That's actually wrong:
Dazzling spray:

  Code:

ZAP_DAZZLING_SPRAY,
    "spray of energy",
    50,
    new calcdice_calculator<2, 8, 1, 4>,


  Code:

    ZAP_ISKENDERUNS_MYSTIC_BLAST,
    "orb of energy",
    100,
    new calcdice_calculator<2, 12, 1, 3>,


Both use the "figure out the dice from the max damage" method, for DS it's P/4 for max damage, and for IMB it's P/3 for max damage, both use 2 dice, DS adds 8 to the min max damage, IMB adds 12.

That results in:
DS: 2d(4+P/8)
and
IMB: 2d(6+P/6)

IMB is just flat out better at all power levels.

[Siegurt]

Since spray is (more reliably) multi-target and also has a strong hex attached it should do very little damage (alternatively, make the hex very weak and make it do sort-of-ok damage, like maybe throw flame damage to each target). The fact that it's even close to IMB (which costs more MP per cast) is ridiculous. Spray with its current hex attached should probably do like at most like 1/4 to 1/3 the damage of IMB, instead of nearly 100% even in the worst reasonable comparison for Spray (half spellpower of IMB).

Presently DS does roughly 2/3 the damage of IMB at the same power level and takes two skills instead of one, so on average around half the damage for the same XP and 3/4 the MP.

[crate]

Yeah I still think spray is probably too strong, since realistically it's still pretty useful even if it deals no damage at all with the strength of its current hex. Really cj should probably still just have meph :p

[MainiacJoe]

DS's damage formula is 2d(8+P/4) max 50. IMB's is 2d(6+P/6) max 100. )

That's actually wrong:
Dazzling spray:

  Code:

ZAP_DAZZLING_SPRAY,
    "spray of energy",
    50,
    new calcdice_calculator<2, 8, 1, 4>,


  Code:

    ZAP_ISKENDERUNS_MYSTIC_BLAST,
    "orb of energy",
    100,
    new calcdice_calculator<2, 12, 1, 3>,


Both use the "figure out the dice from the max damage" method, for DS it's P/4 for max damage, and for IMB it's P/3 for max damage, both use 2 dice, DS adds 8 to the min, IMB adds 12.

That results in:
DS: 2d(4+P/8)
and
IMB: 2d(6+P/6)

IMB is just flat out better at all power levels.

Badwiki typo, it says 8 + P/4. Thank you! LearnDB doesn't have damage formulas, just accuracy ones.

[duvessa]

Really cj should probably still just have meph :p

um no, obviously it should have inner flame

[petercordia]

Making Inner Flame level 2 and removing throw flame would make FE's weaker and much more interesting. I might actually start playing them

[svendre]

No one has yet mentioned one of the main benefits of throw flame/frost instead of oh I can conjure flame if I need:

Throw flame's range plays well with a more stealthy build. When you first encounter a target, if it's at maximum range and sleeping, you can potentially fire at it before it wakes up, and take the large accuracy bonus. Secondly, beginning the engagement at longer range means you have more time to launch damage until the creature is at close range, and you have more time to decide to run away if too many other enemies show up on the scene. You can use it as a puller to extract a smaller number of enemies from a safer position. Conjure flame will only actually kill the monster if you stick around for it to get in close range or else it's difficult to maintain it in LOS to prevent it from dissipating. This mean you may have to wait longer and deal with other monster nearby that wakes up or hears noise generated by the attacker. Just casting conjure flame to escape leaves the problem monster alive for a future encounter which may just be worse, coupled with more enemies. Also, you still need some sort of corridor to effectively use the conjured flame. Throw flame's range also is quite useful in water areas such as shoals for creating steam to do damage and/or block LOS.

This is not in any way to say that conjure flame isn't a great spell, because it absolutely is. It's just not an equal substitute for tactics where throw flame shines.

[Siegurt]

No one has yet mentioned one of the main benefits of throw flame/frost instead of oh I can conjure flame if I need:

Throw flame's range plays well with a more stealthy build. When you first encounter a target, if it's at maximum range and sleeping, you can potentially fire at it before it wakes up, and take the large accuracy bonus. Secondly, beginning the engagement at longer range means you have more time to launch damage until the creature is at close range, and you have more time to decide to run away if too many other enemies show up on the scene. You can use it as a puller to extract a smaller number of enemies from a safer position. Conjure flame will only actually kill the monster if you stick around for it to get in close range or else it's difficult to maintain it in LOS to prevent it from dissipating. This mean you may have to wait longer and deal with other monster nearby that wakes up or hears noise generated by the attacker. Just casting conjure flame to escape leaves the problem monster alive for a future encounter which may just be worse, coupled with more enemies. Also, you still need some sort of corridor to effectively use the conjured flame. Throw flame's range also is quite useful in water areas such as shoals for creating steam to do damage and/or block LOS.

This is not in any way to say that conjure flame isn't a great spell, because it absolutely is. It's just not an equal substitute for tactics where throw flame shines.

Note that while I agree with a lot of what you have to say here (throw flame is a good and useful spell) but conjure flame can actually be used without a corridor, you just need to use more than one at a time, knowing how monsters move and how you can manipulate them with conjure flame is a large part of it's power.

[svendre]

No one has yet mentioned one of the main benefits of throw flame/frost instead of oh I can conjure flame if I need:

Throw flame's range plays well with a more stealthy build. When you first encounter a target, if it's at maximum range and sleeping, you can potentially fire at it before it wakes up, and take the large accuracy bonus. Secondly, beginning the engagement at longer range means you have more time to launch damage until the creature is at close range, and you have more time to decide to run away if too many other enemies show up on the scene. You can use it as a puller to extract a smaller number of enemies from a safer position. Conjure flame will only actually kill the monster if you stick around for it to get in close range or else it's difficult to maintain it in LOS to prevent it from dissipating. This mean you may have to wait longer and deal with other monster nearby that wakes up or hears noise generated by the attacker. Just casting conjure flame to escape leaves the problem monster alive for a future encounter which may just be worse, coupled with more enemies. Also, you still need some sort of corridor to effectively use the conjured flame. Throw flame's range also is quite useful in water areas such as shoals for creating steam to do damage and/or block LOS.

This is not in any way to say that conjure flame isn't a great spell, because it absolutely is. It's just not an equal substitute for tactics where throw flame shines.

Note that while I agree with a lot of what you have to say here (throw flame is a good and useful spell) but conjure flame can actually be used without a corridor, you just need to use more than one at a time, knowing how monsters move and how you can manipulate them with conjure flame is a large part of it's power.

That's a fair enough point, I agree.