LAZARUS, COME FORTH

[njvack]

Yay, Beogh can now resurrect orcs!

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c ... eb0a908a7b

<3

[minmay]

ugh why this is awful

[chequers]

minmay, that's an example of a post that trades on nothing but your reputation.

I like this change, although I wish it went further. Dead orcs don't always leave corpses, so you only have a chance at reviving your favourite ally. Hopefully it will make keeping allies around in late/extended marginally less painful.

[Tiktacy]

YES! Finally we see another huge step in the right direction towards making Beogh consistent with the quality of the rest of the game. I might actually consider playing Beogh again after seeing this, well done dev team, well done.

Dpeg is going to be pissed though.

[Croases]

Speaking of pissing off dpeg and making the game better, when is Beogh's silly "you have to play this not-too-remarkable race to access this god" limit being removed?

[Tiktacy]

Speaking of pissing off dpeg and making the game better, when is Beogh's silly "you have to play this not-too-remarkable race to access this god" limit being removed?

Amen

[HardboiledGargoyle]

minmay, that's an example of a post that trades on nothing but your reputation.

to be fair, it also performs the simple function of inviting people, who may react positively to resurrection and orcs that don't really die, to consider an alternative perspective. It's not like minmay posted into an ongoing debate about resurrection.

[ydeve]

Why are people so concerned about making Beogh match up to the standards of other gods? It's already clear that Beogh is designed for flavor only and that "good design" doesn't fit into his concept. So lets stop criticizing him for being horrible to play; he's more a micromanagement minigame than a god.

[Jeremiah]

Speaking of pissing off dpeg and making the game better, when is Beogh's silly "you have to play this not-too-remarkable race to access this god" limit being removed?

If any species could worship Beogh, we could remove HO and bring back MD!

[Sar]

the cure would be worse than the illness then

[Croases]

new race: hilltain dworc
aptitudes: talk like mountain dwarf, taste like hill orc ("this raw flesh tastes great!")

[Tiktacy]

Njvack you sneaky bastard, you removed non-OP thanks immediately before posting this didn't you?

Now how am I suppose to sarcastically thank Sar and Minmay!?

[Sar]

well, you can thank me in my official thanks thread

[dynast]

Thanks, Sar.

[MainiacJoe]

minmay, that's an example of a post that trades on nothing but your reputation.

to be fair, it also performs the simple function of inviting people, who may react positively to resurrection and orcs that don't really die, to consider an alternative perspective. It's not like minmay posted into an ongoing debate about resurrection.

From my perspective as an middle-of-the-road player his reply was simply uninformative. Presumably the intended audience already knows why he thinks this is a bad change. I value his opinion and have learned a lot from him, but can't learn anything from this post.

[Sar]

well, you can learn that he really dislikes this change, and I don't think there's some deeper meaning behind that post, too

[dynast]

Man i sure do hate mayonnaise on hotdogs, not that i eat them.

[ydeve]

+1 Dynast. Some people play Beogh. Others play real Crawl. I'm not sure why you'd try to do both simultaneously.

[MainiacJoe]

well, you can learn that he really dislikes this change, and I don't think there's some deeper meaning behind that post, too

In general he's one of the people I've learned how to play crawl from better, so many times the "why" behind the brief remarks have been good to learn. But maybe here the content is just emotional and there's nothing to learn from it that might help play the game better.

[dpeg]

Folks, you should try to learn to distinguish between duvessa, the player and duvessa, the game design commentator. He has a very good grasp of the game, so you get good advice. He also has a pretty strict point of view regarding design -- it is very reductionist. This is neither bad nor good, but it's something you should be aware of. The typical player has maximalist tendencies (they want more of everything, and get sad if something disappears), so it is certainly useful to have dissenting opinions.

All that said, Beogh will stay, exclusively for orcs. Don't falter, my orcish brethren!

[Croases]

All that said, Beogh will stay, exclusively for orcs.

This is, I reckon, the third time I'm asking, and I don't think I'll get an answer at this point, but do let me try again: Why?

It can't be gameplay because exclusive Beogh is almost unarguably worse design than non-exclusive Beogh, it can't be flavor because non-exclusive Beogh is just as consistent as exclusive Beogh (if cave orcs can accept a hill orc savior and this counts as a foreign messiah motif, they sure can accept a human/centaur/felid/whatever savior and that will count as a foreign messiah motif too, and remember, orcs canonically tried to convert the human Mennas), and it isn't all that bothersome to code.

This thread shows that at least some players believe Beogh doesn't fit into Crawl to begin with, so it's clear there are major problems with the design of this god. I think him being available to only one species for virtually no reason is a part of that (the whole shebang about permanent allies is a bigger part, true, but that's neither here nor there).

[duvessa]

Guys the minmay post is a joke about minmay violently hating beogh, that's why it's not on my account
it was a really stupid joke though i admit that

i still don't like this change because it makes permanent allies a bigger part of the game, though

[Clownie]

Guys the minmay post is a joke about minmay violently hating beogh, that's why it's not on my account
it was a really stupid joke though i admit that

i still don't like this change because it makes permanent allies a bigger part of the game, though

only very technically, considering it literally only affects the "permanent allies god"

[toastedzergling]

Ah damn, I wish I was playing my Beogh character on trunk instead of .17 so I could test this out, sounds like a nice little treat. It seems like this will be a very nice way to more reliably get the special orcs, St. Rokka, Nergalle, etc.

Some questions:
* Do the fallen orc automatically pick up their old equipment?
* Does it only work on orc corpses, or will it work on orc skeletons? (aka, is there only a small window to rez someone)
* Will this work on shapeshifter corpses that died while in an orc form?

I was actually steered here by piginabag after making a proposal for a 6* beogh skill of my own today, here's the reddit post if anyone's interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/ ... c_zealous/

[Lacuenta]

Ah damn, I wish I was playing my Beogh character on trunk instead of .17 so I could test this out, sounds like a nice little treat. It seems like this will be a very nice way to more reliably get the special orcs, St. Rokka, Nergalle, etc.

Some questions:
* Do the fallen orc automatically pick up their old equipment?
* Does it only work on orc corpses, or will it work on orc skeletons? (aka, is there only a small window to rez someone)
* Will this work on shapeshifter corpses that died while in an orc form?

I was actually steered here by piginabag after making a proposal for a 6* beogh skill of my own today, here's the reddit post if anyone's interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/ ... c_zealous/

Try 0.16 Beogh was a lot better back then

[wheals]

Some questions:
* Do the fallen orc automatically pick up their old equipment?

Yep!

* Does it only work on orc corpses, or will it work on orc skeletons? (aka, is there only a small window to rez someone)

It works on the corpse or the skeleton.

* Will this work on shapeshifter corpses that died while in an orc form?

I didn't test this, but I suspect so.

[toastedzergling]

Try 0.16 Beogh was a lot better back then

I'm gonna assume this was trolling (but if it's not, I'm genuinely curious why); I choose .17 because I ran into follower bugs last time I was playing my orc on trunk and didn't feel like them snubbing my gifts (again). I also wanted to play an invocations/smite oriented orc, and I knew Beogh's smite got buffed in 0.17.

[Sar]

Folks, you should try to learn to distinguish between duvessa, the player and duvessa, the game design commentator. He has a very good grasp of the game, so you get good advice. He also has a pretty strict point of view regarding design -- it is very reductionist. This is neither bad nor good, but it's something you should be aware of. The typical player has maximalist tendencies (they want more of everything, and get sad if something disappears), so it is certainly useful to have dissenting opinions.

All that said, Beogh will stay, exclusively for orcs. Don't falter, my orcish brethren!

dpeg gets it

[Lacuenta]

Try 0.16 Beogh was a lot better back then

I'm gonna assume this was trolling (but if it's not, I'm genuinely curious why); I choose .17 because I ran into follower bugs last time I was playing my orc on trunk and didn't feel like them snubbing my gifts (again). I also wanted to play an invocations/smite oriented orc, and I knew Beogh's smite got buffed in 0.17.

No trolling, Beogh gives a lot more upgrades/gifts to your followers in 0.16.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

* Will this work on shapeshifter corpses that died while in an orc form?

I didn't test this, but I suspect so.

it shouldn't happen though, since shape shifters leave a shape shifter corpse, not an orc corpse. But if an orc dies while polymorphed into a non-orc form, it should still leave an orc corpse. Resurrecting that corpse should probably result in a living orc.