An Attempt at a Tier List backed by Consensus

[lethediver]

Looking for some community input here, I would like everyone to post their tier list of DCSS gods from most to least powerful. At the end I will average out all the votes. Preferred to leave out any gods you dont have enough information/experience to make a judgement about.

For me:

Early Game
T1: Trog, Fedhas
T2: Okawaru, Dithmenos, Jivya
T3: Vehumet, Ashenzari
T4: Makhleb, Sif Muna, Zin, Kiku, Ru
T5: Chei, Qazlal
T6: Xom, No God

3-5 Rune Game:
T1: Trog, Fedhas
T2: Jivya, Chei, Vehumet, Makhleb, Ashenzari
T3: Okawaru, Zin, Sif Muna, Dithmenos, Ru
T4: Kiku, Qazlal
T5:
T6: Xom, No God

Extended:
T1: Makhleb, TSO, Zin, Kiku
T2: Chei, Jivya, Ashenzari
T3: Vehumet, Ru, Dithmenos
T4: Okawaru, Fedhas,
T5: Sif Muna
T6: Qazlal, Xom, No God

[prozacelf]

Did you intentionally leave out Ely or was that just an oversight?

[Sar]

What is the point of this list? To judge the tastes of Tavern as a community? To make a yet another pointless chart? To prove that democracy doesn't work?

[zxc23]

I think DrKe's tiers are close to perfect and that it's better to argue for specific incremental changes to that instead.

[lethediver]

Did you intentionally leave out Ely or was that just an oversight?

Intentionally, i do not think ppl (including me) should put a god in tier list if not much experience with that god.

[lethediver]

What is the point of this list? To judge the tastes of Tavern as a community? To make a yet another pointless chart? To prove that democracy doesn't work?

I think, to create a cultural exchange, the Korean dcss community put some effort into collectively making a chart and it would nice of us to do the same.

Most countries on earth right now are democracies. We can split off and make a separate thread to argue the merits of democracy if you like.

If you think it is pointless, exercise your right to not participate. I think it is hypocritical to make pointless complaint about something being pointless.

[lethediver]

I think DrKe's tiers are close to perfect and that it's better to argue for specific incremental changes to that instead.

If you think this, then my other thread (using that chart as a basis) is best place for you to participate.

[Sar]

Cultural exchange? There are people of all cultures posting on Tavern. Maybe we should split voting by nationality?

Edit: also I'm genuinely curious, what is the point? Should I vote for gods I like or the ones I consider strong? If I were voting, I mean.

[Sprucery]

My list, based on my subjective experience:
Bad: Qaz, Chei, Xom, no god
Good: everything else

(Qaz may be better than the other bads, as I'm currently playing a character of Ru with screaming and sac stealth and seem to do fine despite everything noticing me.)

[duvessa]

Normal games: Fedhas > Trog >>>>>>>>> Kiku > Yred, Jiyva > Elyvilon, Makhleb, Ru > Sif Muna > Okawaru > Lugonu > Dithmenos, Nemelex >>> Ashenzari, Vehumet, Beogh, Zin, TSO, Gozag > Xom, Cheibriados, No God >>> Qazlal
Extended: Lugonu, Zin > Elyvilon, Ash > Kiku, Makhleb, TSO > Nemelex, Jiyva, Dithmenos, Ru, Sif Muna, Okawaru > Vehumet, Yred, Fedhas > Beogh > Gozag, Trog, No God > Xom >>> Qazlal >>>>>>>> Cheibriados

Q: why is jiyva so high
A: slimify

Q: why is qazlal worse than no god
A: noise

Q: why is okawaru---
A: shitty piety gain mechanic randomly makes it take forever to get heroism sometimes

Q: why don't you distinguish between early game and midgame and lategame and
A: pointless, you have to do all of them to win and the only reasonable 3-rune god switches are fedhas -> jiyva and abandoning xom as a chaos knight

Q: why are Lugonu/Zin/Elyvilon so good in extended
A: they all have "turn invincible" invocations

Q: why aren't you including pakellas
A: i'm still hoping he gets removed

[lethediver]

Cultural exchange? There are people of all cultures posting on Tavern. Maybe we should split voting by nationality?

Edit: also I'm genuinely curious, what is the point? Should I vote for gods I like or the ones I consider strong? If I were voting, I mean.

It is rare for a whole dcss community (korean) to attempt to make contact with this largely english speaking forum. I know this forum is diverse in its own way, but it mostly represent the opinions of english speaking people, with others cordoned off to a separate sub forum.

If you want to vote, you should vote for god you think is powerful like it says in the OP, or like it says in the tier lists being discussed.

[Blade]

3-rune:
Trog > Jiyva > Ru > Vehumet, Makhleb, Okawaru, Sif, Beogh >>> Kiku, Nemelex, Dith, Ash, Xom (MuCK, scummy) > Gozag > Lucy >>>>>> TSO > Chei > Zin > No god > Xom (everything else)

Extended:
what's an extended

Regarding Fedhas, Yred, Pakellas, Qazlal, Ely: I actively dislike playing these gods enough to have come to no conclusion about their actual power in newcrawl, other than that Pakellas is a poor man's MuCK.
Regarding the large gap: I will never choose gods below this line in serious play unless I'm trying to prove something. I love every god above the line but Beogh and Kiku, who I grudgingly accept.
The medium gap separates "powerful and straightforward" from "powerful but fiddly."
Beogh would be lower if he wasn't attached to Hill Orcs. Vehumet is higher for FE and Conjurer, slightly lower for others.
I agree with minmay re: early/late game.

[kuniqs]

...give me a race/class/god combo and I'll tell you if it's good or not, with explanations. Jeez.

[lethediver]

...give me a race/class/god combo and I'll tell you if it's good or not, with explanations. Jeez.

Ok, can you tell which ones are better than which others? If so, you are capable of making a tier list.

Tier lists exist in most games with online competitive community and different character choices to pick from. It's not revolutionary concept here.

[archaeo]

Crawl doesn't have an online competitive community, it just has some players who very much wish Crawl had an online competitive community.

e: also, for what it's worth, I think "god tier lists" make a lot less sense than "species tier lists"; when you pick a god, you're generally just picking a playstyle, and while some are more optimal than others, they're all perfectly reasonable give the right starting conditions. Plus, there's the RNG factor; D:2 Ashenzari >>>>> D:9 Ashenzari, after all. OTOH, you pick species at the beginning of the game, a choice that probably has the greatest impact on the most difficult part of the game.

Not that y'all can't make a tier list or whatever, it's just about as relevant as arguing over whether Batman or Superman would win in a fight.

[ydeve]

Most countries on earth right now are democracies.

This is actually not true. There are practically no democracies on earth right now. America is not a democracy, but a republic. A democracy is where decisions are made by popular vote, but in America decisions are made by the people in office or voted on by the people in office, not by popular vote.

[lethediver]

Most countries on earth right now are democracies.

This is actually not true. There are practically no democracies on earth right now. America is not a democracy, but a republic. A democracy is where decisions are made by popular vote, but in America decisions are made by the people in office or voted on by the people in office, not by popular vote.

Few points:

1. How would you relate the distinction between democratically elected officials making decisions, and democratically made decisions, to the argument against my attempt at making a tier list? If you cannot, how is it relevant?

2. If you insist that the distinction between democracy and republics IS relevant to me making a tier list, why should I listen to your argument? Arguing against my attempt to do something, by employing the logic that "democracy does not work", seems self defeating because it also denies YOUR agency. For instance: Why should i listen to you if you are not elected official?

[lethediver]

Crawl doesn't have an online competitive community, it just has some players who very much wish Crawl had an online competitive community.

Competitive players are a minority in any game, there are many thousands of people who play, for instance, Smash Bros, or Street Fighter, with only a minor fraction constituting the "competitive scene."

So, your argument that only "some players" want for there to be a competitive scene, seems to actually be a grudging admission that crawl DOES have a competitive scene, and that therefore, attempt to make tier list is valid.

e: also, for what it's worth, I think "god tier lists" make a lot less sense than "species tier lists"; when you pick a god, you're generally just picking a playstyle, and while some are more optimal than others, they're all perfectly reasonable give the right starting conditions. Plus, there's the RNG factor; D:2 Ashenzari >>>>> D:9 Ashenzari, after all. OTOH, you pick species at the beginning of the game, a choice that probably has the greatest impact on the most difficult part of the game.

Not that y'all can't make a tier list or whatever, it's just about as relevant as arguing over whether Batman or Superman would win in a fight.

Ok, thanks. Race tier list coming up.

[Sar]

Race tier list coming up.

After the heated argument about real world politics above I expected to see a human races tier list poll, and only then did I realize what were you talking about.

[radinms]

how did you make this tierlist(too many people play dcss)

[lethediver]

Race tier list coming up.

After the heated argument about real world politics above I expected to see a human races tier list poll, and only then did I realize what were you talking about.

Would be interesting lol, but I will leave that one for another brave forum member to start.

[lethediver]

how did you make this tierlist(too many people play dcss)

By consensus, a lot of ppl will put their vote in (hopefully knowledgeable ppl) and at the end we have a subjective, flawed tier list. Like many other game communities have.

[dynast]

Competitive players are a minority in any game, there are many thousands of people who play, for instance, Smash Bros, or Street Fighter, with only a minor fraction constituting the "competitive scene."

Its not like there is people who play doto or csgo, or that we have a dart board, or that this game has highscores that people speedrun for, or that we have tournaments.

[lethediver]

Competitive players are a minority in any game, there are many thousands of people who play, for instance, Smash Bros, or Street Fighter, with only a minor fraction constituting the "competitive scene."

Its not like there is people who play doto or csgo, or that we have a dart board, or that this game has highscores that people speedrun for, or that we have tournaments.

Yes. This is the point im making. The poster saying that "there is no competitive scene" and saying "there is some players who want a competitive scene" have made contradictory statements because it doesnt take all that many players to make a competitive scene. And those players clearly exist.

[dynast]

Sry, your opening statement throwed me off.

[Sprucery]

Not that y'all can't make a tier list or whatever, it's just about as relevant as arguing over whether Batman or Superman would win in a fight.

Superman, no contest (well, unless Batman had a supply of cryptonite).

[nago]

God list

Your list is quite changed from last time you rated crawl's gods. Could you elaborate a bit more why? (not I'm arguing, actually it's closer to mine now that yred is higher in the list and so on)

[Lasty]

For what it's worth, democracy does not guarantee (or even encourage) consensus. This forum contains people with widely varying opinions about most things in crawl, and the possibility of them reaching consensus in this thread is quite low.

America is not a democracy, but a republic.

You misspelled oligarchy. Happens to the best of us.

[wheals]

America is not a democracy, but a republic.

You misspelled oligarchy. Happens to the best of us.

woke af

[duvessa]

Race tier list coming up.

After the heated argument about real world politics above I expected to see a human races tier list

you were probably joking, but this is actually something that internet neo-nazis do unironically. here's an example (don't click on that unless you enjoy the sensation of your brain trying to escape through your ear canal)

Your list is quite changed from last time you rated crawl's gods. Could you elaborate a bit more why? (not I'm arguing, actually it's closer to mine now that yred is higher in the list and so on)

Well, first of all, disclaimer: someone asks for the list like every month so I do it from memory and don't think about it very long. That said, the last one I made was really misleading because it ranked the never-optimal gods differently from the possibly-optimal ones by giving more weight to their mid/late game abilities. So Yred was way below Kiku instead of just a little below, etc.
The one I gave here places all the gods based on how much they help you win, with no consideration given to the other gods available, so even though there is practically no reason at all to pick Yred over Kiku, Yred is only ranked a little bit lower.
Fedhas is above Trog now in my opinion because Trog piety gain was nerfed.

[nago]

Well, first of all, disclaimer: someone asks for the list like every month so I do it from memory and don't think about it very long. That said, the last one I made was really misleading because it ranked the never-optimal gods differently from the possibly-optimal ones by giving more weight to their mid/late game abilities. So Yred was way below Kiku instead of just a little below, etc.
The one I gave here places all the gods based on how much they help you win, with no consideration given to the other gods available, so even though there is practically no reason at all to pick Yred over Kiku, Yred is only ranked a little bit lower.
Fedhas is above Trog now in my opinion because Trog piety gain was nerfed.

I see, thanks for the explanation.