Korean Tier List Broken Down to Easily Analyzed Format

[lethediver]

WESTERN TIER LIST:

Early Game

T1: Fedhas, Trog
T2: Kiku, Okawaru, Jivya, Gozag
T3+: Yredelemnul, Makhleb, Evylion
T3: Nemelex, Lugonu, Sif Muna, Ru, Pakellas
T4: Qazlal, Vehumet, Dithmenos, Zin
T5: Ashenzari, TSO, Beogh
T6: Cheibrados, Xom, No God+

3-5 Rune

T1+: Makhleb, Azhenzari
T1: Kiku, Trog, Evylion, Pakellas
T2+: Ru, Zin, Lugonu
T2: Dithmenos, Jivya, Nemelex, Yredelemnul, Vehumet, Gozag
T3: Beogh, Okawaru
T4+: Fedhas, TSO, Sif Muna
T4: Cheibrados, Qazlal
T5: Xom
T6: No god

Extended

T1: TSO, Makhleb, Zin, Evylion
T2+: Dithmenos
T2: Vehumet, Ashenzari, Lugonu
T3: Ru, Kiku, Jivya, Gozag, Sif Muna, Nemelex, Pakellas
T4: Okawaru, Trog, Cheibrados
T5: Fedhas, Yredelemnul, Beogh
T6: Qazlal, Xom, No God

KOREAN TIER LIST:

Early Game

T1: Fedhas, Trog
T2+: Yredelmnul
T2: Kiku, Okawaru, Gozag, Dithmenos
T3+: Makhleb
T3: Lugonu, Qazlal, Sif Muna, Evylion, Ru, Pakellas, Vehumet
T4+: Beogh
T4: Nemelex, TSO, Zin, Jivya
T5: Ashenzari, Cheibrados
T6: Xom, No God+

3-5 Rune

T1++++: Yredelemnul
T1+: Ru, Azhenzari
T1: Kiku, Makhleb, Pakellas
T2+: Zin, Gozag
T2: Dithmenos, Trog, Jivya, Cheibrados, Qazlal, Vehumet
T3+: Beogh, Lugonu, Sif Muna
T3: Fedhas, Evylion, Okawaru
T4+: TSO
T4: Nemelex
T5: Xom
T6: No god

Extended

T1: TSO, Makhleb, Zin, Kiku
T2: Vehumet, Ashenzari, Dithmenos, Lugonu, Ru, Pakellas, Gozag, Cheibrados
T3: Jivya, Sif Muna, Qazlal
T4: Okawaru, Trog, Nemelex, Evylion
T5: Fedhas, Yredelemnul, Beogh, Xom
T6: No God

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CHANGES VS WESTERN:

Early Game

Dithmenos: +2, From T4 to T2
Beogh: +1.5, from T5 to T4+
TSO: +1, from T5 to T4
Yredelemnul: +1, From T3+ to T2+
Vehumet: +1, from T4 to T3
Qazlal: +1, from T4 to T3
Cheibrados: +1, from T6 to T5

Evylion: -0.5, from T3+ to T3
Nemelex: -1, from T3 to T4
Jivya: -2, from T2 to T4

3-5 Rune

Yredelemnul: +3, from T2 to T1++++
Cheibrados: +2, from T4 to T2
Qazlal: +2, from T4 to T2
Ru: +1, from T2+ to T1+
Sif Muna: +1, from T4+ to T3+
Fedhas: +.5, from T4+ to T3
Beogh: +.5, from T3 to T3+
Gozag: +.5, from T2 to T2+

Makhleb: -0.5, from T1+ to T1
Trog: -1, from T1 to T2
Lugonu: -1, from T2+ to T3+
Evylion: -2, from T1 to T3
Nemelex: -2, from T2 to T4

Extended

Qazlal: +3, T6 to T3
Kiku: +2, T3 to T1
Cheibrados: +2, T4 to T2
Ru: +1, T3 to T2
Pakellas: +1, T3 to T2
Gozag: +1, T3 to T2

Dithmenos: -0.5, T2+ to T2
Nemelex: -1, T3 to T4
Evylion: -3, T1 to T4
Xom: +1, T6 to T5

Combined

Qazlal: +6
Cheibrados: +5
Yredelemnul: +4
Beogh: +2
Ru: +2
Kiku: +2
Dithmenos: +1.5
Gozag: +1.5
TSO: +1
Xom: +1
Vehumet: +1
Pakellas: +1

Makhleb: -0.5
Lugonu: -1
Jivya: -2
Nemelex: -4
Evylion: -5.5

Rating Inflation: 28 positive change - 13 negative change = +15 total change / 3 tier lists = 5 higher ranks per tier list / 22 gods = 0.227 higher rank avg.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SUMMARY:

Koreans rank gods very slightly higher on average (each god being ~0.23 rank higher on average across all tier lists).

They think Dithmenos is much more powerful, and Beogh considerably more powerful early game than we give credit for. They think Jivya is much weaker early game than we do.

They think Yred is BROKEN in a 3-5 rune game (approx 2 tiers higher than any other god). And that Chei and Qaz are much more powerful in a 3-5 rune game than we give credit for. They think Evylion and Nemelex are much weaker in a 3-5 rune game than we do.

They think Qazlal is much, MUCH less useless than we give credit for in Extended (3 tier increase! Though still only raised to mid tier.) They think Kiku and Chei are much more powerful than we give credit for in extended. They think Evylion is not NEARLY as powerful as we think, in extended (from top tier to lower mid tier).

Overall, they think Jivya is much worse than we give credit for (2 tier decrease across all tier lists), and that Nemelex and Evlyion are much, much, much worse than we think (-4 and -5.5 tier decrease respectively). And the opposite is true for Qazlal, Chei, and Yredelemnul, who Koreans rate as 6, 5, and 4 tiers higher across all tier lists.

[ydeve]

Aren't there a lot of Korean players who love Beogh?
It seems like they value permanent allies a lot more than we do. Tavern likes to see permanent allies as tedious and not very useful, but the Koreans like them, so they rank Beogh and Yred higher than we do.

I think it's funny that they rank both Qaz and Dith higher. In a sense, the two gods are opposites. One has the strong drawback of alerting all monsters to your presence, while the other makes picking your fights much easier.

[duvessa]

Ok so at this point I have to ask, you guys do all realize that the "Western" tier list is just one guy's personal opinion right? Not really a top player, either. It's not a consensus. That is why kiku is placed bizarrely low for extended.

[Hirsch I]

new western tier list:
Tier 1
Trog - Jyiva - Ash - Dith

crap Tier
everything else.

now this is the tavern's opinion, please update accordingly.

[lethediver]

Ok so at this point I have to ask, you guys do all realize that the "Western" tier list is just one guy's personal opinion right? Not really a top player, either. It's not a consensus. That is why kiku is placed bizarrely low for extended.

Perhaps the Asian tendency towards cultural collectivism enabled them to come to a consensus on their tier list more easily than we.

As part of this ongoing cultural exchange, we might put more effort into forming a tier list backed by a legit consensus. Although, in my few months of using this forum, I have yet to see an actual consensus anywhere. Even opinions that ought to be relatively non controversial like "spells are good" are subject to long standing, acrimonious disputes.

So, perhaps one persons opinion is the best we can hope for.

[Sar]

Lold at Trog's place in "3-5 runes". Really funny - now, where is the real list?

[gammafunk]

Yes, that list was made by DrKe as his personal assessment, and he would be the first to say that it's no 'definitive' listing of any kind, just his personal opinion. Also, the Korean listing is the result of one person putting such a list forward, we don't know how many people were involved in such a consensus.

Another thing to keep in mind is that cwz players might be playing crawl in a way that's much less focused on winning:

  Code:

<gammafunk> !lg * !@bot recent !boring s=src / won o=%
<Sequell> 12667/1043224 games for * (!@bot recent !boring): 408/14745x cdo [2.77%], 1687/91410x cxc [1.85%], 253/14106x lld [1.79%], 347/21569x cpo [1.61%], 4140/279568x cszo [1.48%], 1315/115106x cbro [1.14%], 3001/276471x cao [1.09%], 860/87106x cue [0.99%], 656/143143x cwz [0.46%]


The games played on CWZ have a significantly lower winrate compared to most other servers, and that holds even if you look at games that made it to XL17

  Code:

<gammafunk> !lg * !@bot recent !boring s=src xl>=17 / won o=%
<Sequell> 12664/42789 games for * (!@bot recent !boring xl>=17): 408/984x cdo [41.46%], 251/689x lld [36.43%], 1687/4854x cxc [34.75%], 4140/12185x cszo [33.98%], 1315/3887x cbro [33.83%], 347/1081x cpo [32.10%], 3000/11120x cao [26.98%], 860/3444x cue [24.97%], 656/4545x cwz [14.43%]


It looks like CWZ games are much more skewed to 15-rune wins:

  Code:

<gammafunk> !lg * !@bot recent !boring s=src won / urune=15 o=%
<Sequell> 3214/12667 games for * (!@bot recent !boring won): 484/656x cwz [73.78%], 109/253x lld [43.08%], 484/1687x cxc [28.69%], 222/860x cue [25.81%], 699/3001x cao [23.29%], 73/347x cpo [21.04%], 864/4140x cszo [20.87%], 225/1315x cbro [17.11%], 54/408x cdo [13.24%]


So comparing "one guy's god listing" to "some group of South Korean players'" listing in order determine the differences in thinking between between two much larger groups that probably aren't playing for the same reasons even on-average is likely to lead you to make a lot of nonsensical observations. Never mind how badly it would go if you try to use those results to determine which gods are the strongest!

[sdynet]

Yes, that list was made by DrKe as his personal assessment, and he would be the first to say that it's no 'definitive' listing of any kind, just his personal opinion. Also, the Korean listing is the result of one person putting such a list forward, we don't know how many people were involved in such a consensus.

Another thing to keep in mind is that cwz players might be playing crawl in a way that's much less focused on winning:

  Code:

<gammafunk> !lg * !@bot recent !boring s=src / won o=%
<Sequell> 12667/1043224 games for * (!@bot recent !boring): 408/14745x cdo [2.77%], 1687/91410x cxc [1.85%], 253/14106x lld [1.79%], 347/21569x cpo [1.61%], 4140/279568x cszo [1.48%], 1315/115106x cbro [1.14%], 3001/276471x cao [1.09%], 860/87106x cue [0.99%], 656/143143x cwz [0.46%]


The games played on CWZ have a significantly lower winrate compared to most other servers, and that holds even if you look at games that made it to XL17

  Code:

<gammafunk> !lg * !@bot recent !boring s=src xl>=17 / won o=%
<Sequell> 12664/42789 games for * (!@bot recent !boring xl>=17): 408/984x cdo [41.46%], 251/689x lld [36.43%], 1687/4854x cxc [34.75%], 4140/12185x cszo [33.98%], 1315/3887x cbro [33.83%], 347/1081x cpo [32.10%], 3000/11120x cao [26.98%], 860/3444x cue [24.97%], 656/4545x cwz [14.43%]


It looks like CWZ games are much more skewed to 15-rune wins:

  Code:

<gammafunk> !lg * !@bot recent !boring s=src won / urune=15 o=%
<Sequell> 3214/12667 games for * (!@bot recent !boring won): 484/656x cwz [73.78%], 109/253x lld [43.08%], 484/1687x cxc [28.69%], 222/860x cue [25.81%], 699/3001x cao [23.29%], 73/347x cpo [21.04%], 864/4140x cszo [20.87%], 225/1315x cbro [17.11%], 54/408x cdo [13.24%]


So comparing "one guy's god listing" to "some group of South Korean players'" listing in order determine the differences in thinking between between two much larger groups that probably aren't playing for the same reasons even on-average is likely to lead you to make a lot of nonsensical observations. Never mind how badly it would go if you try to use those results to determine which gods are the strongest!

yes, we think authentic clear is all rune. 3-5rune is half clear.

[lethediver]

Sdynet, thank you for posting. I am fascinated by the idea that the Korean dcss playstyle might be unique in some way. In GunZ for instance, there is a "k style" which differs markedly from western style of play.

Some users here are hypothesizing that Korean players use permanent allies more and that is why they find Beogh and Yredelemnul strong. Why does Yred get S++++ rank ? That is very strong tier...

[zxc23]

The Japanese playstyle is also unique:

dgwn[1/2]: when I first started playing I met some Japanese players who were remarkably better than anyone I've seen play, to this day, and they said that Demigod Wanderers were so easy to ascend with that they classified runs as DgWn runs and Non-DgWn runs

[lethediver]

The Japanese playstyle is also unique:

dgwn[1/2]: when I first started playing I met some Japanese players who were remarkably better than anyone I've seen play, to this day, and they said that Demigod Wanderers were so easy to ascend with that they classified runs as DgWn runs and Non-DgWn runs

Thank you, Is this legit or joke trying to fool me into rolling many DgWn and splatting? I have trouble with the forum 'humor' here sometimes.

[zxc23]

The Japanese playstyle is also unique:

dgwn[1/2]: when I first started playing I met some Japanese players who were remarkably better than anyone I've seen play, to this day, and they said that Demigod Wanderers were so easy to ascend with that they classified runs as DgWn runs and Non-DgWn runs

Thank you, Is this legit or joke trying to fool me into rolling many DgWn and splatting? I have trouble with the forum 'humor' here sometimes.

It's up to interpretation. I would not recommend DgWn, but for all I know this was legit at some point in time.

I think in DCSS an objectively 'correct' method of play can be found far more easily than other games, especially PVP and real-time games. I would be interested to know and to challenge the reasoning behind the Korean ranking of Yred, Chei, and Qazlal in particular.

[Sar]

Really? I'd say in PvP games it would be much easier to find out a "correct build".

[sdynet]

Sdynet, thank you for posting. I am fascinated by the idea that the Korean dcss playstyle might be unique in some way. In GunZ for instance, there is a "k style" which differs markedly from western style of play.

Some users here are hypothesizing that Korean players use permanent allies more and that is why they find Beogh and Yredelemnul strong. Why does Yred get S++++ rank ? That is very strong tier...

Thank you for posting.
Q1 : Do you like permanent allies?
A : We are just a lot more than you.

Q2 : Do you like Beogh?
A : We are with you. Less people playing Beogh.
Beogh is difficult to manage. Orc dies or go to abyss , there is no way to recover lost.

Q3 : Why does Yred get S++++ rank?
A : 1 - Animate Dead is a very cheap cost . But, strong.
2 - The Drain life is upgrade you have the limit of viability. very cheap cost. But, STROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO POWER!
You can not die!
3 - Gift Undead servants. Yred is inferior to me very soon , a senior servant . The commanding your legions of the fallen angels, bone dragons and dedicate a third rune to you.
You simply just wield the baton .

however, 1and2 is pan and hell, the tomb is not it useless.

[lethediver]

Thanks hyung. Show me how to play sometime. I will buy soju and kimbap. Ok??

Hwaiting!

[ZipZipskins]

Although, in my few months of using this forum, I have yet to see an actual consensus anywhere.

"Hi," the internet says to you.

Even opinions that ought to be relatively non controversial like "spells are good" are subject to long standing, acrimonious disputes.

Are people saying spells are bad? Because basically every person giving advice I have ever seen advocates for some measure of spellcasting on the majority of characters.

So, perhaps one persons opinion is the best we can hope for.

Maybe but maybe also we should stop referring to it as "a tier list from THE WEST!"

[zxc23]

Really? I'd say in PvP games it would be much easier to find out a "correct build".

It's harder because in PVP your opponent reacts to what you do. Metas shift and evolve. It is harder to pin down a single correct way to play. DCSS AI doesn't adapt to what you do, and being turn-based allows for a lot of deep optimisation.

Even opinions that ought to be relatively non controversial like "spells are good" are subject to long standing, acrimonious disputes.

Are people saying spells are bad? Because basically every person giving advice I have ever seen advocates for some measure of spellcasting on the majority of characters.

Spells are definitely overrated. So is ranged in general. Trog is also the strongest god and disallows spellcasting so there's that.

[Lasty]

Maybe but maybe also we should stop referring to it as "a tier list from THE WEST!"

"a tier list from THE WEST!" is accurate. It's just not "THE tier list from the West."

[TTsY]

They actually love PARTY-playing.

It's common that treating warlords as badass friends, calling a bone dragon cute doggy in KR. They really think friendly followers are their partners and good friends.

In 2013 I even saw a man sacrificed himself to save Roka.

Check this : http://m.dcinside.com/view.php?id=rlike&no=1711 All the responses of this were DISGUSTING for his betraying friends.

[ydeve]

They actually love PARTY-playing.

It's common that treating warlords as badass friends, calling a bone dragon cute doggy in KR. They really think friendly followers are their partners and good friends.

In 2013 I even saw a man sacrificed himself to save Roka.

Check this : http://m.dcinside.com/view.php?id=rlike&no=1711 All the responses of this were DISGUSTING for his betraying friends.

So basically, they aren't playing the same game as us. Instead, they're playing a game where it only counts as a win if most of their party is intact?

[ZipZipskins]

Maybe but maybe also we should stop referring to it as "a tier list from THE WEST!"

"a tier list from THE WEST!" is accurate. It's just not "THE tier list from the West."

I guess I meant "THE COLLECTIVE WEST!"

[Sar]

the collectivist West

[ZipZipskins]

we are west

we are legion

[DrKe]

The extended list is moreso "ease of doing extended" rather than outright survivability, since I think most any build has enough options not to die in extended. Gods like Kiku/Beogh can be better than where I put them if you use a lot more effort.

I took a lot of feedback when making the list, but yeah in the end it's something that only speaks to the opinion of this top player.

[stoneychips]

Aren't there a lot of Korean players who love Beogh?
It seems like they value permanent allies a lot more than we do. Tavern likes to see permanent allies as tedious and not very useful, but the Koreans like them, so they rank Beogh and Yred higher than we do.

I think it's funny that they rank both Qaz and Dith higher. In a sense, the two gods are opposites. One has the strong drawback of alerting all monsters to your presence, while the other makes picking your fights much easier.

In a sense yes, but it depends what you're trying to get out of them.

Both Qaz and Dith pile on extra damage dealing for you (clouds or shadow attacks). So in that sense, they can be very similar as boosts.