What's with the needles?


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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Saturday, 18th June 2011, 13:10

What's with the needles?

Why does autopickup for {many characters - can't say I've surveyed which ones) pick up curare-tipped needles? For example, I'm currently playing a Kobold of Trog who's never used a blowpipe but autopickedup some needles.

I've noticed this before, and often enough to make me suppose it's a feature rather than a bug - is it? Am I missing something strategic? (Or should I just be self-administering them and chilling out for a while?)

Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 18th June 2011, 13:19

Re: What's with the needles?

I think of it as a hint. Curare is useful even if you don't use any other needles. I think this is Crawl's way of saying "these might just save your life".
If you find a blowpipe and a big enemy at suitable range, give it a try...
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Saturday, 18th June 2011, 13:39

Re: What's with the needles?

It's also because leaving curare lying on the floor where something else can find them can be hazardous to your health.

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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Saturday, 18th June 2011, 17:58

Re: What's with the needles?

mageykun wrote:It's also because leaving curare lying on the floor where something else can find them can be hazardous to your health.

Wouldn't you say the same for poison needles (which are treated differently). Or, for that matter, for a whole bunch of other stuff that's lying round the dungeon but that I don't pick up (i.e. all of the other weapons that I don't want to pick up)?
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Saturday, 18th June 2011, 18:25

Re: What's with the needles?

Certain things are more dangerous than others.

Poison needles I tend to pick up in the first few levels, so if I find a blowgun, I can use them. After that though, there's too many to reasonably pick up them all, and one more possible source of poison is a small, easily managed threat (potions of healing, rPois, having enough hp to be able to just wait it out...) at that point, especially considering the low odds of monsters finding a blowgun to go with it. If I clear say, a nest of kobolds, I will sometimes take the blowguns and dump them somewhere else, so intelligent monsters don't have a free ammo pile to use against me. I'll also sometime do the same with centaur bows- leaving useless piles of arrows.

Curare is a bit more dangerous though, since if you get hit, it can turn fatal much easier and much quicker than a light poisoning (if you haven't experienced this, start an assassin and try some for yourself on an Ogre or two. Or try the sprint map with Sonja and see how many times she kills you with it). Honestly, I kind of think of it as the closest crawl comes to having cockatrice type deaths. But really, it's the same reason you don't leave wands lying around either- it's just too useful in some unsuspecting creature's paws.

Other things I tend to loot and move, just so they can't be used against me again include any weapon brand I'm currently weak against, and draining weapons, because if there's one thing more annoying that getting level drained, it's coming back later and getting level drained by the same dang thing in new hands.

But yes, feel free to leave most the floor trash where it is. Unless you're playing with Nemelex of Jiyva, there's no use for it, and it would take far to long to safely stash every tiny potential threat for very little return. It all comes down to cost benefit analysis- you remove the threats you feel it's worth your time to remove.
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Saturday, 18th June 2011, 20:45

Re: What's with the needles?

mageykun wrote:But yes, feel free to leave most the floor trash where it is. Unless you're playing with Nemelex of Jiyva, there's no use for it, and it would take far to long to safely stash every tiny potential threat for very little return. It all comes down to cost benefit analysis- you remove the threats you feel it's worth your time to remove.

I acknowledge the strategic/tactical significance of doing as you describe and moving dangerous things - I'd never have thought of doing that in any systematic way.

That doesn't directly answer my question, though - why are the curare needles automatically picked up? Do they just represent an arbitrary cutpoint on the continuum of dangerousness in relation to stuff that might get left lying around?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 18th June 2011, 20:58

Re: What's with the needles?

You used to be able to throw needles without a blowgun, but that capability has since been nerfed. At that point, curare was something that every character carried around at all times if it was available since throwing it was extremely effective against many dangerous uniques and monsters up to and including Zot 5. Since then curare has been reigned in to more sensible levels of power, but the autopickup behavior hasn't been changed. There is no particular incentive to change it, either, because it's still bad news in the hands of hostile monsters.

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MyOtheHedgeFox

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Post Saturday, 18th June 2011, 22:28

Re: What's with the needles?

Needles weigh practically nothing, and it all pretty much stacks, unlike wands. It's easy enough to dump them somewhere no one will find it.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 19th June 2011, 03:15

Re: What's with the needles?

I always leave curare needles (& anything else dangerous I've picked up) in the Temple. Good place for stashes, and that keeps it out of dangerous hands. :)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 19th June 2011, 03:57

Re: What's with the needles?

curare, draining, distortion - the terrible three that belong at the bottom of lava lakes

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Post Sunday, 19th June 2011, 11:53

Re: What's with the needles?

Grimm wrote:curare, draining, distortion - the terrible three that belong at the bottom of lava lakes


Also wands of polymorph other!

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 19th June 2011, 16:54

Re: What's with the needles?

Those can be useful: on jellies, invisible horrors, electric eels, and other low HD monsters that have some irritating feature you do not have a proper counter for yet.

Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 19th June 2011, 17:13

Re: What's with the needles?

Grimm wrote:curare, draining, distortion - the terrible three that belong at the bottom of lava lakes

Keep the curare and a blowgun, it's useful. Use it on nasty things that you want to slow, even works on things like titans and orb guardians. And if you have spare enchant weapon scrolls, enchant the curare so you can use it even more often.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 19th June 2011, 22:46

Re: What's with the needles?

What is the chance of hitting with it if you have no throwing skill?
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 20th June 2011, 08:30

Re: What's with the needles?

It's not hard coded, it's just the default autopickup option. You can change it if you want, it's in autopickup_exceptions.txt:

  Code:
# curare is always dangerous on the floor
ae = <curare-tipped


Jeremiah wrote:What is the chance of hitting with it if you have no throwing skill?

It depends on your dex.

  Code:
// Blowguns take a _very_ steady hand; a lot of the bonus
// comes from dexterity.  (Dex bonus here as well as below.)
HitBonus += throwing * 3 / 2 + dex / 2


Skill is an important factor in whether the monster is affected by the needle brand and the duration of the effect. See Henzell's explanation for details.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 20th June 2011, 13:47

Re: What's with the needles?

Grimm wrote:Those can be useful: on jellies, invisible horrors, electric eels, and other low HD monsters that have some irritating feature you do not have a proper counter for yet.

Boggarts.
You fall off the wall. You have a feeling of ineptitude.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 04:55

Re: What's with the needles?

Boggarts, yeah, good idea. I call the little horrors "buggerts".
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 19:24

Re: What's with the needles?

Bears repeating: there's that one time I tested a wand of transmutation on a rat and it turned into a boggart, full with summoning power. On D:3.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 09:35

Re: What's with the needles?

hahahahaha
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 23rd June 2011, 12:05

Re: What's with the needles?

Grimm wrote:Those can be useful: ... invisible horrors ... that have some irritating feature you do not have a proper counter for yet.


I'm ashamed to say it had never occurred to me to polymorph invisible horrors when I have no see invisible. D'Oh!

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 23rd June 2011, 17:02

Re: What's with the needles?

I only found out by blasting wands in desperation at an invis horror that was chewing me to pieces.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 4th July 2011, 15:47

Re: What's with the needles?

Grimm wrote:I only found out by blasting wands in desperation at an invis horror that was chewing me to pieces.


Desperation is the mother of discovery (or YASD)
A troll caster is a hybrid

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 04:16

Re: What's with the needles?

Thanks Mom!
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Sewers Scotsman

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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 09:52

Re: What's with the needles?

RFHolloway wrote:
Grimm wrote:I only found out by blasting wands in desperation at an invis horror that was chewing me to pieces.


Desperation is the mother of discovery (or YASD)

Erolcha is the mother of Sigmund. True fact. You read it here first.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 16:19

Re: What's with the needles?

Confidence Interval wrote:
RFHolloway wrote:
Grimm wrote:I only found out by blasting wands in desperation at an invis horror that was chewing me to pieces.


Desperation is the mother of discovery (or YASD)

Erolcha is the mother of Sigmund. True fact. You read it here first.


Who is Edmund's mother then?
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
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