The Tavern

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3 ... 8452590932

Code:: Monster spell: Awaken Earth. Turns some rock walls adjacent to the target cell into earth elementals. Smite-targeted; can be used out of LOS like Dig. Nothing currently uses it, but that will change momentarily.

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1 ... d55cd202f6

Code:: Convert the deep elf elementalist into a normal foe with Awaken Earth. Appearing in the Elf:3 vaults and other places where the high tier elves occasionally spawn. Their spell set features Awaken Earth, which is set to a fairly high weight to serve its intended purpose of preventing killholing on Elf:3.

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f ... 4d7d55446e

Code:: Remove deep elf fighters; add deep elf archers. Fighters were rarely interesting or memorable apart from possibly the lair entry that placed one. I doubt they'll be missed. Elementals can now pose the low level threat in Elf, if one turns out to be necessary. Archers are to master archers as knights are to blademasters - a mid-tier threat with some support spellcasting on the side. In this case, it's more of an AM theme. Tweaks to the spell set would be welcome. The now-free LIGHTRED e glyph goes to elementalists so they don't have an ETC_ colour.

Deep elf fighters were important in trying to find good ego bucklers...

...so why was awaken earth added instead of just giving deep elves Dig?

Why are you punishing players for using tactics? I don't see what's particularly bad about digging in Elf:3. If you don't want people to dig, make all the walls stone. Also, what about digging in the rest of the game? Is it only because E:3 is an end vault that digging should be forbidden?

tabstorm wrote:Why are you punishing players for using tactics?

If there's one tactic that's obviously better than the others, and requires little to no danger or investment, you nerf that one (or buff the others); that's how balance works. You want killholing to stay because it's powerful and easy to do and makes E:3 a breeze. For exactly those same reasons, it should go. How it should be nerfed is a different question, but it's ridiculous to say we should never nerf powerful tactics just because they're tactics. Projected Noise was a tactic, should that have stayed?

E: v Try walking backwards.

Every time you nerf kill-holing, you also nerf Passwall; which nerfs Formacids completely by taking away their only escape option. Now Formacids can't do Elf:3 until they can beat all the enemies in a row, period. Since those enemies with dig will just cause everything to follow you if you try to passwall away.

ontoclasm wrote:
tabstorm wrote:Why are you punishing players for using tactics?

If there's one tactic that's obviously better than the others, and requires little to no danger or investment, you nerf that one (or buff the others); that's how balance works. You want killholing to stay because it's powerful and easy to do and makes E:3 a breeze. For exactly those same reasons, it should go. How it should be nerfed is a different question, but it's ridiculous to say we should never nerf powerful tactics just because they're tactics. Projected Noise was a tactic, should that have stayed?

So do you think Dig should be removed entirely from player use? It's just as important in Zot and Depths as it is in Elf:3, and is useful all game but people often don't bother to do it.

Besides, if you don't want people to dig, just make Elf:3 have stone walls instead of adding more monsters and mechanics.

tabstorm wrote:So do you think Dig should be removed entirely from player use?

Yes.

technically, TS, it sounds like there's a net loss of a couple elves an elf (I think?):

Code:: Merge deep elf summoners and conjurers into mages. Mages are bumped up to HD 9 to reflect their new skills. Spells are six fixed sets loosely based on the old spell sets as well as a couple of additional spells to try to keep the sets interesting. More tinkering with the sets would be welcome. Summoners and conjurers are replaced 1:1 in vaults and bands.

Code:: Remove deep elf priests. They were very rare, insignificant in places where they appeared, and in those places where they were not they overlapped with / were overshadowed by deep elf high priests (who remain).

I don't really have a problem with awaken earth, since terrain alteration by monsters is something I kind of like, and this does more than dig. If it turns out to be a spammy, annoying problem, then just making elf all stone is def. another option.

I also don't know if I disagree with ontoclasm re: removing dig/disint entirely, but lord knows it'd be work and cause a great deal of consternation. eta: fwiw, I'd let Fo continue to have it.

ontoclasm wrote:
tabstorm wrote:So do you think Dig should be removed entirely from player use?

Yes.

Remove Fo too?

Well, the real problem I have with this is that with kill holes, elf used to be 'moderate risk good rewards' for a certain level range, moving up to 'low risk, for possibly maybe some ok reward' at later levels.

Without kill holes, the risk for doing elf 3 always exceeds the rewards by a large margin for all characters (by the time you can do the combat safely, the treasure is worthless, and the xp has always been terrible proportional to the risk, maybe for a late game vampire or deep dwarf that desperately needs healing? )

So you might as well remove the whole branch, Elves are on tier with zot 5 for danger without kill holes, so if you can do elf 3 without them, then your better off just winning instead, it provides nothing worthwhile.

Maybe if you stuck a rune in there it would be worth it, probably should be moved to the vaults or depths too.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. I can't even remember the last time I bothered kill-holing E3, even though I loot that branch far more often than I should. You just use the same tactics as every other part of the game up until this point; get the attention of the first elf in line and then book it back down the entry hallway towards the stairs. Usually there's at least one stairwell conveniently close. Sometimes you do end up pulling more than you wanted regardless of your best efforts, but that only means you have to deal with 2 or 3 top-end elves at once, not the whole vault.

It's worse for formicids because they can't just use one of their dozens of unused escape consumables to bail on any pull that goes hilariously wrong, but that's a bit of a corner case anyway.

Siegurt wrote: Elves are on tier with zot 5 for danger without kill holes

I wouldn't go that far, maybe on par with V:5.

Also, I don't think I understand the limits of this mechanic, since it says it can be used out of LoS. What exactly does this mean?

Can you have something like this:

Code:: ############### ######@#.###### #######.####### ######.######## #####.######### e............. to #####EEE####### #####E@E.###### #####EE.####### ######.######## #####.######### e.............

happen?

I agree with KoboldLord -- I virtually never killhole on Elf:3 (or even retreat to the stairs) and I do it reasonably often. Like most other, it's not that hard to deal with one enemy at a time, and since the elves are mostly glass cannons, it's generally easy to take one out before it does much.

tabstorm wrote:Also, I don't think I understand the limits of this mechanic, since it says it can be used out of LoS. What exactly does this mean?

No, it would look something more like this:

Code:: ############### ######@#.###### #######.####### ######.######## #E###.######### e.............

(not adding the surrounding squares for clarity's sake)

Doing elf 3 without kill hole/kiting is easy, doing early elf 3 with kill hole/kiting is easier than doing the other branches.

Its all fun until a elf with dispersal arrows shows up.

Most Elf:3 vaults can still be killholed with laughable ease if you're an EE and have at least ######.... LRD / enough AC to tank a couple of your own blasts :lol:

RE: discussion about removing player sources of digging and killholing .... No. Don't take it away from Fo and EEs through LRD: these creatures depend upon it for survival.

TBQH, a much more reasonable fix would have been to make Elf:3 much more stony - stonify the entire vault placement, so that you actually need to use tactics relevant to every other endbranch vault (luring small groups of enemies out at once in a controlled fashion). Elf:3 killholing was only so relevant because it was so frequently /diggable and /disintable.

Think about how it is with Swamp, Spider, Snake or Shoals; what solutions do those vaults have that make digging not work? Swamp has watery mangroves, so most chars have to take a movespeed and attack penalty against fast swimming creatures; Spider almost always has a fully-stone vault, Snake is also fully-stone with some neat Guardian Serpent interaction, and Shoals is almost always open. ... Whereas Elf is composed mostly of enemies only dangerous at a distance and could always be killholed very close to the vault. This should have been fixed, not killholing anything in Elf ever.

I think that kill holes are more to the benefit of melee than casters. Anytime I have gone to Elf with a caster, I usually have Freezing/Venom Cloud or Fireball/Bolt of Draining which really just kills everything in there. You can throw poison on them and run away, the DE Elementalist wasnt really a problem because I don't need a hole in the wall and I can run from demonologists. Meanwhile for a melee your chances of getting more banishes cast on you "esp if you only have MR++" will be greatly increased and now you probably have to fight the Tier 1/2 demons they summon, while you are surrounded all these weak summons. Since you are melee you likely do not have Abjure and there is no more Warding.

Now I have not done the trunk Elf with a melee yet but these changes don't seem to impact a caster much.

Deep elf fighters weren't chumps when you didn't have SInv.

Yes they were.

The only inv monsters that I find difficult to kill without SInv are unseen horrors, and they're not that hard to run away from. For the rest, with proper positioning you can find out where they are without much difficulty.

MainiacJoe wrote:Deep elf fighters weren't chumps when you didn't have SInv.

I assume that this might have been the case if you went to Elf when you first found the entrance. If, however, you went to Elf much much later like you're supposed to, deep elf fighters were complete pushovers, invis or not.

Sprucery wrote:
MainiacJoe wrote:Deep elf fighters weren't chumps when you didn't have SInv.

I assume that this might have been the case if you went to Elf when you first found the entrance. If, however, you went to Elf much much later like you're supposed to, deep elf fighters were complete pushovers, invis or not.

I was thinking more about when I encountered them in the mid-lower dungeon. I typically do Elf 1:2 around the same time I do the upper floors of the lair branches, sometimes before and sometimes after Orc 4.

I also do Elf early and try to tackle the end vault if I have the necessary tools (MR, clouds and/or good melee, plus extra consumables for master archers and possibly blademasters/crystal golems) on hand, and I'd like to say I dislike these changes. Elves being both squishy and threatening made the halls an interesting branch, since doing it early was dangerous but possible and rewarding.

But now several strategic countermeasures against elves have been eliminated from the game (I'm alright with killhole prevention, but you can no longer rely on elemental damage/bolt of draining/poison clouds because of elementals/dancing weapons and Alistair's is unusable because of clarity removal), and your battle plan is pretty much reduced to "be big and strong, crush puny elf with big weapon and big spell". There was previously a massive difference between how I approached Elf and how I approached, say, a Depths level, but now there is no such difference and Elf is yet another exercise in being strong enough to plow through it.

I'd much rather see early elf being encouraged than late elf being made the standard and everything being buffed accordingly. In being a high risk, high reward midgame optional area, Elf kind of resembles a portal, so maybe it should in fact be made a portal to prevent people from coming back when it no longer poses a challenge.

You can still mostly poison your way through Elf. Elementals are a pushover for a caster, especially since you already have something to deal with resistant enemies anyway. The biggest danger to the character type you mentioned would be dancing weapons, and if you take them on one on one with a decent nonelemental spell they should be doable.

The Tavern

PSA: New monster spell and more changes to Elf monsters

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