Dungeon monsters should spawn in Lair

[phloomp]

Trying to give every branch a completely unique monster set seems to me like a mistake. Adding more monster types increases cognitive load on a player, and at a certain point they all seem like minor variations on one another. Does it really matter which hp-sack melee dude a branch has? Which glass canon? A better design goal is for a branch to have a good mixture of threats with a few monsters or layout features that make it unique.

Lair has some cool things that the dungeon mostly lacks (hydras, beefy melee enemies that are faster than you, less cover). But for the most part it's monster set is like that of dungeon only less interesting and rebranded as animals.

I think that as many lair monsters as possible should be replaced with similar monsters from the dungeon. For example all the speed-10, gimmic-less monsters can be replaced by ogre packs, ettins, etc. Fire drakes can be replaced by centaurs with flaming ammo. The distinctive Lair monsters that shouldn't be replaced include the fast melee guys (wolves, snakes, frogs) and the monsters with fun gimmics (hydras, catoblepi, brain worms).

Besides better gameplay, this would be good for flavour. If you were a hill giant, wouldn't you want to hang out in the gently rolling hills and rocky defiles of the Lair? Of course you would.

[amaril]

I believe brain worms have been cut.

[tedric]

share if you remember when stashing was the #1 reason to keep Lair free of intelligent monsters

[all before]

Here's the wiki's current list of monsters in Lair:

  Code:

Bugs: Giant cockroach, giant mite, giant ant, scorpion, yellow wasp, trapdoor spider, redback, fire crab, goliath beetle, boring beetle, boulder beetle, worm, brain worm, torpor snail;
By the Swamp entrance: Swamp worm, vampire mosquito, giant leech;
By the Spider's Nest entrance: Wolf spider, tarantella, jumping spider, demonic crawler, orb spider;
Vault Only: Killer bee, queen bee, worker ant, soldier ant, queen ant;
Jellies: None
By the Slime Pits: Slime creature, ooze, jelly, giant eyeball, eye of draining, eye of devastation; Only behind runed doors: acid blob, azure jelly;
Vault Only: ooze, jelly, death ooze, azure jelly, acid blob;
Fish: electric eel;
Rodents: Rat, bat, quokka, river rat, orange rat;
special vault: lemuel_ratsnest with lots of xp-draining orange rats;
Canines: Jackal, hound, Warg, wolf;
Vault Only: Hell hound;
Beasts: Raven, sheep, yak, death yak, black bear, polar bear, elephant, dire elephant, porcupine;
Mythical: Griffon, hippogriff, hydra, manticore, catoblepas;
Snakes: Ball python, adder, water moccasin, black mamba;
Frogs: Giant frog, spiny frog, blink frog;
Lizards: Giant newt, giant gecko, iguana, komodo dragon, basilisk, wyvern;
Dragons: fire drake, lindwurm, steam dragon;
Vault Only: ice dragon, fire dragon;
Demons: None normally
By ice cave: White imp;
By the Evil Forest hell portal: Sun demon, smoke demon, hellwing, orange demon;
Humanoids: None normally (except uniques);
By the Shoals entrance: Centaur, siren;
By the Snake Pit entrance: Naga, naga warrior;
By the Evil Forest hell portal: Crazed wizard (identical to a standard wizard);
Vault Only: Necromancer;
In the Lair:8 Forest: Spriggan, spriggan druid, spriggan rider (on wasp);
Plants: Oklob plant, ballistomycete, giant spore, wandering mushroom;
Statues: Elephant-shaped statue.


Whether or not any other changes get made, that list should get seriously trimmed. Not only is there a huge variety, but there's a huge variety of enemies that are basically the same. If elephants, bears, porcupines, geckos, newts, and iguanas stopped showing up today, would anyone notice or care?

I think OP does a good job outlining what makes Lair distinctive: fast packs, lack of corridors, and hydras. I dunno, maybe basilisks and catoblepas too, though I find paralysis dust a really annoying mechanic.

I'd love to try out an experimental branch where D monsters were in Lair, though I think which monsters would need to be carefully chosen with balance in mind. Ettins and Ogre Packs are pretty frightening when they show up in O, I dunno about swapping them for the easier L enemies. I definitely think adding more ranged/smiting/hex threats to L would make the branch more interesting, but also more difficult, so testing would be need to figure out the right level of challenge.

[daggaz]

All monsters should either be grues (melee) or gazebos (magic). And you shouldn't have the dungeon. You just fight one after the other. This is good for flavor because wouldn't grues and gazebos like a completely flat and linear game? Of course they would.

Not saying that monsters lists shouldnt be either trimmed or given more strategically interesting choices...

[KoboldLord]

I think it might be worthwhile adding more dragons to the Lair list. Dragons and ice dragons are both vault spawns already, so they clearly must be manageable for Lair-capable characters, so it wouldn't be unfair if they could randomly pop up anywhere starting around halfway through Lair. Swamp dragons too, for sure. The higher-tier dragons can go on the list, too, but at a depth where they don't show up until the player starts getting out-of-depth spawns. Camp out too long, and you can get the chance to butcher a shadow dragon hide or a gold dragon hide, which would be totally fair. Totally. At present, though, there's nothing that can legally spawn in the Lair that might actually alarm a farming player.

More interesting non-melee threats in general is probably good, but dragons are already implemented but not in the animal-themed branch for some reason. The implementation requirement for adding to the spawn list would be really low and there would be no change in theme or flavor to the branch, but the tactical situation would be at least one step more varied compared to the all-melee-always situation at present.

[Sprucery]

If elephants, bears, porcupines, geckos, newts, and iguanas stopped showing up today, would anyone notice or care?

Imho elephants and bears are distinctive enough (bears could be buffed a bit though), but with the rest I agree. Porcupines could be ok too if their spikes would do more than 2d4 damage.

[Siegurt]

If elephants, bears, porcupines, geckos, newts, and iguanas stopped showing up today, would anyone notice or care?

Elephants are big, do lots of damage, and come in packs, bears do not, and berserk, porcupines damage isn't usually a big deal, but they are fast, iguanas newts and geckos are all fairly similar, but iguanas are noticably tougher than the other two, I would say that geckos and newts are nearly identical, and are probably too low level to provide a challenge to anyone entering the lair, even pretty early (fr: make a low level lizard called a chameleon that casts invis on itself, and replaces one of geckos or newts)

[WingedEspeon]

I think it might be worthwhile adding more dragons to the Lair list. Dragons and ice dragons are both vault spawns already, so they clearly must be manageable for Lair-capable characters, so it wouldn't be unfair if they could randomly pop up anywhere starting around halfway through Lair. Swamp dragons too, for sure. The higher-tier dragons can go on the list, too, but at a depth where they don't show up until the player starts getting out-of-depth spawns. Camp out too long, and you can get the chance to butcher a shadow dragon hide or a gold dragon hide, which would be totally fair. Totally. At present, though, there's nothing that can legally spawn in the Lair that might actually alarm a farming player.

More interesting non-melee threats in general is probably good, but dragons are already implemented but not in the animal-themed branch for some reason. The implementation requirement for adding to the spawn list would be really low and there would be no change in theme or flavor to the branch, but the tactical situation would be at least one step more varied compared to the all-melee-always situation at present.

a) Farming is never supposed to be encuraged. Making it a good idea to sit on a level for a long to to gain a good hide is bad.

b) Swamp dragons are actually more threatening than fire/ice dragons because the poison breath does tons of damage if you don't cure it and it can't be dodged.


I like the diverse list of spawns. It adds a smidgen of realism, some flavor, and doesn't negatively impact game play. I would notice if elephants stopped showing up in lair as they are pretty heavy hitters but lack the insane MR and the rPois of death yaks.

[ontoclasm]

Death yaks aren't rPois.

[WingedEspeon]

I stand corrected. I though they were due to their chunk type.

[KoboldLord]

a) Farming is never supposed to be encuraged. Making it a good idea to sit on a level for a long to to gain a good hide is bad.

Sitting on an early-game level until a shadow dragon spawns is a bad idea regardless of whether you want a hide or not, because a shadow dragon will kill you. The part about the hide is a joke, because if you were able to consider going for such a hide you don't actually need the hide.

[tedric]

Death yaks aren't rPois.

I stand corrected. I though they were due to their chunk type.

yeah so what's up with that anyway