BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS


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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 17:01

BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Who is your top three shitty weak babygods and why? Xom is too easy

1. Qazlal IVE WON WITH HIM BUT MAN HES PROBABLY BAD FOR WINRATE


2. Gozag EMINENTLY SWITCHABLE. REALLY I JUST DONT LIKE PLAYING HER


3. Beogh ORCS DIE LIKE CHUMPS LATER ON LEAVING YOU SAD AND FRIENDLESS AND WITH NOUGHT BUT A SMITE TARGETTED MONSTER TICKLE

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 17:21

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Chei because Chei. Qaz because noise is actually really bad. I played with Gozag a bit and he feels okay, and I like Beogh. I guess Ash is sort of bad because Ash doesn't do anything in early game. I like Ash, though.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 18:33

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Beogh smite is the strongest single target attack in the game. Unavoidable and irresistible, just FYI.
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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 18:37

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

I'm pretty sure UC with forms, dark maul, stabs, LCS etc. do more damage. Or are you trying to make a joke?

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 18:57

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Sar wrote:I'm pretty sure UC with forms, dark maul, stabs, LCS etc. do more damage. Or are you trying to make a joke?


He means damage that the enemy cannot avoid, resist, or reduce in any way. Though I suppose Fire Storm probably has more power, but its a much bigger investment.

Beogh smite is great for something that has to die right now, because you can't miss and their AC doesn't matter.

Anyways, I'll be a contrarian and pick Trog as my top weak babygod. Not in that he is weak, but he is a pick for weak babies to choose, and I find the zero magic playstyle boring. Elyvilon is second for the reason of me never once thinking 'I'd like to try Elyvilon on this character' and I'll put Sif Muna in the final slot because everything she does you can get from other sources (channeling, amnesia, spells) and miscasts aren't usually a problem if you're focusing on spells, which you are if you pick Sif.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:01

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

I could be wrong about this, but I think a felid UC dragon form stab is the strongest attack in the game, and if I remember correctly sandman had one doing over 900 damage (not 9000, sorry). It's certainly pretty up there. While smite isn't going to put out that kind of damage, calling it a strong attack is still true.

I find that Beogh orcs tend to last if you're good at managing them - I had 4 warlords survive all the way to zot:5, and one of them even cleared the floor with me and made it out of the dungeon. I probably could have saved the 3 who died, but blundered into way more than I could handle and their sacrifice is what saved my life :)

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You could see the friendly Wardok the orc warlord.

From http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 151243.txt

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:06

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Aetherus wrote:Beogh smite is great for something that has to die right now, because you can't miss and their AC doesn't matter.

It can still roll low amount of damage because it does roll for damage like every other attack. And para/sleep stabs can't miss either. So you either roll of AC and EV and damage, but your damage roll averages MUCH higher, or your roll only for damage, but the average is much lower.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:07

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

tasonir wrote:I could be wrong about this, but I think a felid UC dragon form stab is the strongest attack in the game, and if I remember correctly sandman had one doing over 900 damage (not 9000, sorry). It's certainly pretty up there. While smite isn't going to put out that kind of damage, calling it a strong attack is still true.

I find that Beogh orcs tend to last if you're good at managing them - I had 4 warlords survive all the way to zot:5, and one of them even cleared the floor with me and made it out of the dungeon. I probably could have saved the 3 who died, but blundered into way more than I could handle and their sacrifice is what saved my life :)

  Code:
You have escaped!

You could see the friendly Wardok the orc warlord.

From http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 151243.txt

Felids lost their form stabbing, they only uc stab with Un melded kitty claws now

(Well I should say they lost their bonus to stabbing with uc when using forms, they stab the same as anyone else in dragon form now)
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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:10

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

my god tier list:
broken, one is always optimal on non-DD/undead: fedhas, trog
would be optimal on many characters if fedhas/trog did not exist: ely, jiyva, kiku, makhleb, ru, nemelex
never optimal but overwhelmingly better than atheist: ash, dith, lugonu, zin
never optimal but noticeably better than atheist: beogh*, okawaru, sif, veh*, yred, tso
not significantly helpful, but not actively worse than atheist on most characters: gozag
slightly better than atheist at best, and much worse at worst; worse for most characters: qazlal, chei, xom

*beogh and veh are strictly worse than yred and sif, respectively, but not by enough to be in a different tier

some gods are good to switch to for extended (and jiyva is good to switch to from fedhas after lair or so) but this is not significant enough to be reflected in my list

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:16

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

1. Fedhas- Everyone screams the praises of this guy but somehow I always run out of piety by mid-game and never get it back.

2. Dithmenos- I'm not sure I've ever used this god past earlygame dungeon splats but he looks boring, just giving me fakeHaste, Umbra, and some dumb situational abilities. Dumb shadow god for dumb shadow cowards, y'all don't even read ?immolation

3. All the good gods who are basically one god anyway. Ely is boring like finding extra potions and /Enslavement and now instead of hating violence she just likes tourism like a poser member of the Peace Corps , TSO is whiny baby ripoff of Mahkleb who cries if I accidentally hit a Devil-Zombie if it's distracted by its own evilness but doesn't care if I bully small animals, Zin could be fun because his book is funny but so much of crawl is just a yak punching simulator and Zin only cares about berating people of unusual color and even worse Zin actively opposes fun like mutations and cannibalism.


Honorable mention to Trog because
Aethrus wrote:Not in that he is weak, but he is a pick for weak babies to choose, and I find the zero magic playstyle boring.
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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:17

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Hmmmm....So then UC 27 no form stab still the strongest? Can you berserk stab? Anyways, my top 3 weak gods would probably be:

Sif Muna
Ashenzari
Nemelex

I want to like Ash more but the doing nothing early on has caused my few attempts at picking Ash to die, so I never really bothered to invest in actually playing Ash until I made it stick.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:18

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

I would put gozag ahead of oka.
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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:21

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

tasonir wrote:Hmmmm....So then UC 27 no form stab still the strongest?


I had a Chei character with claws 3 mutation and 27 UC / 27 Sneak unarmed attack a sleeping enemy while wearing boots of the assassin.

I'd never seen so many exclamation points.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:25

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

As an addendum, I'd also say Yred's summons fall off in power earlier than Beogh's. They're both pretty close, but Yred summons tend to die in early zot, where if you have a warlord who managed to get rF there's a pretty good chance you can get him out of Zot alive. I wish it was easier to equip your orcs; the limit of one item restricts their power a good bit, although you can just look for one with a decent weapon to give resistances to. Polearms/crossbows help a lot with killing things safely.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:44

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

You aren't supposed to carry your gifts/orcs in Zot because even plain dracs will shred them with their aoes (this is even more true for orcs due to poison breaths). Just recall them if you need them, even an oof will have a bad day if it's suddenly surrounded by bone dragons and ghouls.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 20:04

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

The worst gods in my view are Gozag, Xom, and Sif. Gozag I find weak, but even if it is buffed to the point where it's strong, I just don't personally care for it much. I'm glad Xom is in the game, but I would never worship this god outside of deliberately seeking a challenge condition. Sif is definitely better than atheist, but the god's benefits come relatively late and the god is pretty boring to use.

To expand on Sif a little, I think the god's powers actively make the game more boring for me, given that they often let me pick whichever spells I want over the long term rather than making do with what I find, and given that they let me tediously channel mana whenever I want instead of having to use it thoughtfully.

That said, the gods I'm actively happy to take are, more or less in order, Dith, Ru, (Zin|Fedhas), (Makhleb|Kiku|Okawaru), Ely, Qazlal. That list is based on a combination of my personal fun rating and their power level. Lucy and Jiyva rarely exist; TSO banning poison is a huge power drop in the part of the game where blowgun is an amazing offense and TSO's powers don't do much; Yred and Beogh are too ally-heavy for my taste; I like magic too much to enjoy Trog; Veh feels a bit like atheist-plus; Nemelex is fiddly and sometimes randomly kills you in the early game; and Chei is a sometimes food.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 20:24

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

duvessa wrote:god list


Why Yred is so low in the chart?
And for Gozag you consider the old one or the new better balanced one?
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 20:33

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

duvessa wrote:slightly better than atheist at best, and much worse at worst; worse for most characters: qazlal ...

This is because of noise, isn't it. I see a lot of strong players warning about noise and I haven't paid that much attention to it as I play. I should probably change that.
Won (52). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 5 Backgrounds: AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 5 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC, newSif, newFedh

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 20:46

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

wizzzargh wrote:TSO is whiny baby ripoff of Mahkleb who cries if I accidentally hit a Devil-Zombie if it's distracted by its own evilness

TSO doesn't actually care if you stab demons/undead...

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 20:54

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

nago wrote:Why Yred is so low in the chart?
And for Gozag you consider the old one or the new better balanced one?
The list is for the current version of all the gods. The difference between the third and fourth tiers is pretty small early game and you could probably merge them. Yred is there because I don't think animate remains+pain mirror is especially better than heroism/channeling, it's better than halo though - if I were going to make a change to the list it would be to move tso down a tier.

MainiacJoe wrote:This is because of noise, isn't it.
Yes, Qazlal has the heaviest penalties of any god in the game right now. I believe his noise is actually worse than Chei's slowness and conducts (which are already extremely bad) for most characters, thought at least Qazlal's penalties go away when you renounce him.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 21:27

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

wizzzargh wrote:2. Dithmenos- I'm not sure I've ever used this god past earlygame dungeon splats but he looks boring, just giving me fakeHaste, Umbra, and some dumb situational abilities. Dumb shadow god for dumb shadow cowards, y'all don't even read ?immolation

Dith's Shadow Mimic also gives you bonus melee, ranged and magical attacks--anything targeted, even Hexes--that trigger on up to 50% of your attacks. This can be quite strong even if you ignore the stealth side of the god, deserving better than the epithet "fakeHaste" IMO.
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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 22:25

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

duvessa wrote:
nago wrote:Yes, Qazlal has the heaviest penalties of any god in the game right now. I believe his noise is actually worse than Chei's slowness and conducts (which are already extremely bad) for most characters, thought at least Qazlal's penalties go away when you renounce him.

I had a demonspawn of Qazlal with powered by death. I really appreciated the noise honestly, it and the Gong meant I could fight the entire floor at once and stack insane regeneration rather than it wearing off between fights.

Having everyone in one place is also convenient when you have a button to kill everything up to and including Pandemonium Lords on screen. Saves time and piety you'd spend doing it in bite sized chunks.

Qaz and Chei have significant penalties, but significant advantages. They're only bad choices when you don't play to their strengths. They're not for every character, but you significantly underrate how much benefit they can offer if you think that even in best case they aren't much better than atheist.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 23:22

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

MainiacJoe wrote:
wizzzargh wrote:2. Dithmenos- I'm not sure I've ever used this god past earlygame dungeon splats but he looks boring, just giving me fakeHaste, Umbra, and some dumb situational abilities. Dumb shadow god for dumb shadow cowards, y'all don't even read ?immolation

Dith's Shadow Mimic also gives you bonus melee, ranged and magical attacks--anything targeted, even Hexes--that trigger on up to 50% of your attacks. This can be quite strong even if you ignore the stealth side of the god, deserving better than the epithet "fakeHaste" IMO.


He also doubles your stealth. That's really good for much the same reason that Qazlal's noise is really bad for most characters.

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 01:22

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

What does umbra actually does, anyway? I know it does something to your effective EV in some way.

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 05:45

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

It reduces accuracy for most monsters iirc. (Undead/Profane Servitors/Dith followers aren't affected?)

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 06:42

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Gozag is better than folks give her credit for.

Use Potion Petition more... like, a lot more. Don't save for shops, they'll be full of junk anyways. Don't intentionally save for bribing a branch, but gold flows freely and you'll probably have enough to bribe Zot on any non-gimpy character. Bribing Zot is fun if you like having perma-allied orbs of fire, which you do.

Think of buying shops as what you do if a) you end up with more gold than you could possibly need or b) you need food, not as the point of Gozag. Potion Petition is up there with Deal Four, Finesse, Sanctuary, and other top-tier god abilities, and it's available all the time, even spammable if you hit a good run for a while and don't need divine assistance.
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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 08:22

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Sar wrote:What does umbra actually does, anyway? I know it does something to your effective EV in some way.

Wiki wrote:This aura cancels out haloes, increases your stealth, and decreases melee/ranged accuracy of most creatures by 1+1d4. Dithmenos makes you immune to the accuracy penalty.
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FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 08:27

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Gods I've had trouble with:
1) Xom: actively kills my chars, never got far with Xom
2) Chei: I'm used to repositioning myself in combat, this is lethal with Chei
3) Qazlal: lost one XL 15 char in Abyss because of the noise

Surprising fact: I've still never taken Beogh...
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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 08:40

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

I've heard different stuff about Umbra, that its accuracy penalty depends on piety and that it's supposedly extremely good at max piety.

Also Abyss feels really bad with Qaz even on a postend-ready char.

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 08:55

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Sar wrote:Also Abyss feels really bad with Qaz even on a postend-ready char.
ever done abyss with chei? now think about what chei abyss would be like if chei didn't slow down abyss monster spawns
that's qazlal abyss

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 09:27

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

I actually never done Abyss with Chei. I'm planning to, though! It's gonna be a relatively stealthy char though (a Naga) so I can't really see it having terrible time.
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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 10:58

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Beogh, Xom, Trog; in that order. Trog isn't that weak, I just don't like playing without spells.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 12:25

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

I really hate Ely and I don't care if it's good. The new piety is really off and you don't get enough of it to actually use powers. Even if that wasn't true the abilities still eat up entire feasts of food for no reason and it's such a pain.

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Post Tuesday, 8th December 2015, 21:08

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Abyss on chei is something I've done a ton of; it's really easy imho. Obviously you don't want to be banished there at level 13, but assuming you went to the abyss at level 20+ or so, you just walk through it like any other level and kill the things you see. Having significant regeneration sources is a huge plus. Don't forget you have no rF when a hellephant shows up and nukes you for 80+ damage.
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Post Tuesday, 8th December 2015, 23:03

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Xom: May make the average encounter easier but makes some encounters your worst nightmare and get you killed.

Ru:wants you to make your character significantly weaker to gain piety. You make sacrifices and then die because of them before you get enough piety for the abilities to same you.

Ashe:wants you to curse your own stuff to gain piety for later. This tempts you into doing extreemly stupid things like giving up your early game blowgun and dyeing.
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Post Tuesday, 8th December 2015, 23:11

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

You don't actually need to make your character significantly weaker with Ru. Well, usually. In my experience, anyway.
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Post Tuesday, 8th December 2015, 23:49

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

No ordering in each tier

T1: Trog Fedhas
T2: Kiku Lugonu Makhleb Okawaru Ely
T3: Yred Ru Nemelex
T4: Ash Dith Jiyva Vehumet
T5: Gozag Zin TSO Sif
T6: Xom
T7: Qazlal

Never tried: Beogh

Special tier: Chei makes already good characters very easy but will quickly kill off weak characters.
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Post Wednesday, 9th December 2015, 07:42

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

I'm not sure I understand why people say qaz is so bad.

I've only worshipped him once and the game was so easy that it was laughable. I beat the game on my 3rd try using him(and I've only beaten the game 3 times)after coming back from a long break from crawl. I didn't even get that lucky during the game, I was playing as a Dr and got lucky enough to get smoke as my base, but aside from that most of my finds were pretty mediocre. I did manage to get haste online pretty early though, which made dealing with the noise issues a lot easier.

That being said, I did play him when he was still extremely new, perhaps he has since been nerfed.

The worst god is obviously xom, but he is less of a god and more of a "Hard mode."

The gods I've experienced as being the worst are beogh, Yred, and gozag. Beogh is by far the least fun god to play, a lot of people give chei a bad rep but chei is extremely fun to switch to late game depending on the character. But Beogh on the other hand is just an awful experience all around, and dying while playing with beogh feels like the worst kind of death because you spend so much to with herding your orcs. Yred is just un-exciting, I never felt there was there anything interesting or unique about him. Gozag is just gozag.
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Post Wednesday, 9th December 2015, 16:22

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Tiktacy wrote:I'm not sure I understand why people say qaz is so bad.

I've only worshipped him once and the game was so easy that it was laughable. I beat the game on my 3rd try using him(and I've only beaten the game 3 times)after coming back from a long break from crawl. I didn't even get that lucky during the game, I was playing as a Dr and got lucky enough to get smoke as my base, but aside from that most of my finds were pretty mediocre. I did manage to get haste online pretty early though, which made dealing with the noise issues a lot easier.

That being said, I did play him when he was still extremely new, perhaps he has since been nerfed.

The worst god is obviously xom, but he is less of a god and more of a "Hard mode."

The gods I've experienced as being the worst are beogh, Yred, and gozag. Beogh is by far the least fun god to play, a lot of people give chei a bad rep but chei is extremely fun to switch to late game depending on the character. But Beogh on the other hand is just an awful experience all around, and dying while playing with beogh feels like the worst kind of death because you spend so much to with herding your orcs. Yred is just un-exciting, I never felt there was there anything interesting or unique about him. Gozag is just gozag.

The reason people say qaz is bad is that he makes you more powerful, at the expense of making the state of the game less controllable. One of the things that highly influences game win rates is your ability to control your situation.

The only situation that qaz doesn't detract much from is stair dancing, so if that is your primary (or only) tactic, then as long as you can do that for the whole game, qaz just gives you more power. However there are some games where it is impractical or impossible to stair dance the whole game, and if you have to venture into unknown territory, qaz can turn an ordinarily simple situation into one that is our of control and potentially deadly.

If you don't have a tool box outside of stair dancing for mitigating non stair dancing situations, then you are going to get into potentially deadly situations with our without qaz, so more power is good, but if you know how to avoid those situations in the first place, qaz's drawbacks outweigh his advantages.

When you compare his additional power to other gods, he really doesn't give you significantly more power than most of them, and he doesn't give you many tools to overcome his drawbacks, so once you have started to rely on noise and positioning tactics to win you more games, he starts to look less and less like a good deal, and more like a challenge/conduct god.
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Post Wednesday, 9th December 2015, 23:00

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Tiktacy wrote:I'm not sure I understand why people say qaz is so bad.

I've only worshipped him once and the game was so easy that it was laughable. I beat the game on my 3rd try using him(and I've only beaten the game 3 times)after coming back from a long break from crawl. I didn't even get that lucky during the game, I was playing as a Dr and got lucky enough to get smoke as my base, but aside from that most of my finds were pretty mediocre. I did manage to get haste online pretty early though, which made dealing with the noise issues a lot easier.

That being said, I did play him when he was still extremely new, perhaps he has since been nerfed.

The worst god is obviously xom, but he is less of a god and more of a "Hard mode."

The gods I've experienced as being the worst are beogh, Yred, and gozag. Beogh is by far the least fun god to play, a lot of people give chei a bad rep but chei is extremely fun to switch to late game depending on the character. But Beogh on the other hand is just an awful experience all around, and dying while playing with beogh feels like the worst kind of death because you spend so much to with herding your orcs. Yred is just un-exciting, I never felt there was there anything interesting or unique about him. Gozag is just gozag.


Because he makes a ton of noise over the background, leading to unfavorable combat situations where you are also less poweful than you could be because you sunk a ton of XP into invo for his powers to do anything and they aren't that good anyway.
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Post Thursday, 10th December 2015, 07:46

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

My god tier list based on fun, strength, and quality of exploration of the design space is too epic for this forum in it's entirety, but here's a condensed version.

Fun, useful gods you should play and which have a reasonable enough design for crawl. High enough quality that they can't be ordered: sif trog mak kiku
Some of those are better for different characters, but you should know which that applies to or you should go back to playing Felix the Cat.

Less fun but useful gods that also have a good enough design. Worth playing now and again, not in any particular order: oka ely veh lucy ash pak tso(extended)

Concept gods that force you into minigames you don't want to play or suggest a play-style but there are way better choices for that play-style anyhow. Maybe try these once to experience a fully explored design space. Roughly in decreasing fun order: fedhas dith gozag ru yred tso(3 runes) nem jiyva zin beogh

Annoying challenge gods. Play if you're bored and looking for something wacky: chei xom qaz atheist

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Post Thursday, 10th December 2015, 08:01

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

how the fuck is Pakellas better designed and less annoying than Nemelex

both mess up your inventory, but at least you don't need to wield your cards, not to mention their effects are actually fun and unique

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Post Thursday, 10th December 2015, 08:22

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Well rod wielding is annoying, I'll grant that, but it's only rods, of which I have like 2 to 4 max. In particular it's not:

Pour over this massive list of decks comprising like four different types, but each having one of potentially three different power levels, and where to even use it you have to decide which god ability to actually use it with, and where you may or may not know which of the effects you'll even get, and the effect might try to kill you. Also you're going to keep getting dozens of these to keep shuffling around in inventory.

If I'm using a lot of evocations I'll always have some increased inventory pressure, but Pak gives very few gifts, so it's mostly coming from evocables I find. I don't think nem effects are sufficiently fun or unique to make me go through worshiping nem.

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Post Thursday, 10th December 2015, 08:38

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

gammafunk wrote:but each having one of potentially three different power levels

they're also direct upgrades over each other, combined with Nem gifting me pretty often I feel comfortable dropping decks I don't feel like I need

and Nem powers are pretty obvious when to use - in my opinion, anyway

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Post Thursday, 10th December 2015, 12:59

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

gammafunk wrote:Concept gods that force you into minigames you don't want to play or suggest a play-style but there are way better choices for that play-style anyhow. Maybe try these once to experience a fully explored design space. Roughly in decreasing fun order: fedhas dith gozag ru yred tso(3 runes) nem jiyva zin beogh

I really wanted for you to elaborate on your opinion about gozag. Sure he is not fun to play but he doesnt force any players into any minigames and even gets rid of the food one, he also doesnt suggest any playstyle and encourages the player to follow his own with loot generation via shop funding.
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Post Thursday, 10th December 2015, 13:35

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Organized by alphabetical order.

Gods who are strong and fun: Kiku, Lugonu, Mahkleb, Ru
Gods who are strong but annoying/boring to play: Elyvion, Fedhas, Trog, Yred
Gods who are midtier: Ash, Okawaru, Sif Muna, TSO, Vehumet
Gods who are weak and/or actively hurtful: Beogh, Qazlal, Xom
Gods who I haven't played enough to comment on: Chei, Dith, Gozag, Jiyva, Nemelex, Pakellas, Zin
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Post Thursday, 10th December 2015, 17:27

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Champignonship? Is that a contest among French mushrooms?
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Post Thursday, 10th December 2015, 19:36

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

Siegurt wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:I'm not sure I understand why people say qaz is so bad.

I've only worshipped him once and the game was so easy that it was laughable. I beat the game on my 3rd try using him(and I've only beaten the game 3 times)after coming back from a long break from crawl. I didn't even get that lucky during the game, I was playing as a Dr and got lucky enough to get smoke as my base, but aside from that most of my finds were pretty mediocre. I did manage to get haste online pretty early though, which made dealing with the noise issues a lot easier.

That being said, I did play him when he was still extremely new, perhaps he has since been nerfed.

The worst god is obviously xom, but he is less of a god and more of a "Hard mode."

The gods I've experienced as being the worst are beogh, Yred, and gozag. Beogh is by far the least fun god to play, a lot of people give chei a bad rep but chei is extremely fun to switch to late game depending on the character. But Beogh on the other hand is just an awful experience all around, and dying while playing with beogh feels like the worst kind of death because you spend so much to with herding your orcs. Yred is just un-exciting, I never felt there was there anything interesting or unique about him. Gozag is just gozag.

The reason people say qaz is bad is that he makes you more powerful, at the expense of making the state of the game less controllable. One of the things that highly influences game win rates is your ability to control your situation.

The only situation that qaz doesn't detract much from is stair dancing, so if that is your primary (or only) tactic, then as long as you can do that for the whole game, qaz just gives you more power. However there are some games where it is impractical or impossible to stair dance the whole game, and if you have to venture into unknown territory, qaz can turn an ordinarily simple situation into one that is our of control and potentially deadly.

If you don't have a tool box outside of stair dancing for mitigating non stair dancing situations, then you are going to get into potentially deadly situations with our without qaz, so more power is good, but if you know how to avoid those situations in the first place, qaz's drawbacks outweigh his advantages.

When you compare his additional power to other gods, he really doesn't give you significantly more power than most of them, and he doesn't give you many tools to overcome his drawbacks, so once you have started to rely on noise and positioning tactics to win you more games, he starts to look less and less like a good deal, and more like a challenge/conduct god.



Thank you for the explanation, this makes a lot of sense. I remember during that game, the vast majority of floors involved stair dancing and utilizing the noise to attract various enemies without having to explore into wide open spaces putting myself in potentially undesirable situations. I can see why this tactic would be considered sub optimal, I appreciate you shining light on this situation.

I also remember having a lot less experience to put into other skills as a result of the invocation investment. I did have a solid tool box of spells to help mitigate bad situations, I made very liberal use of swift/haste/blink as well as breaking LOS with my smoke.

The best part about qaz though is how much fun he is to play with. He may not be the best god out there, but he certainly never makes me want to kill myself like some other gods do.
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Post Thursday, 10th December 2015, 21:26

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

One day I will play a game with Qaz, the Singing Sword, and Gong, and all will be right with the world. Until then I don't have much of an urge to use Qaz again. The win I got with him was very painful at times.

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Post Thursday, 10th December 2015, 22:51

Re: BAD GOD CHAMPIGNONSHIP SPONSORED BY FEDHAS

gammafunk wrote:(stuff)

Putting Sif in the top category is extremely weird, and putting Fedhas in the third is even weirder.
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