Buff Yred


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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 12:18

Buff Yred

I just registered here fer the sole purpose of vainly proposing the following: Buff Yred.
He's quite literally considered the worst god for late and extended, without any means of gaining piety or remaining competitive, which is sad.
So.
1. Piety on demons, bretty obvious.
2. Buff Drain Life. Make it partially pierce rNeg and still harvest some lifeforce from demons and holies.
3. Turn Undead on *****, which permanently converts any present undead in LOS. Cost either some sensible chunk of piety like ~15 maybe? Or depending on the number of undead converted. Probably should not check HD or anything, but... Piety/XL vs HD maybe?
4. Return piety-dependence of the undead gift rolls. More pious = more bone dragons.
5. Slightly increase his gift rate OR grant something like Sustain Undead on ***, which heals undead gifts for some piety and/OR "blesses" intelligent gifts with names and some upgrades similar to Beogh ability.
6. Grant Item to an intelligent/named minion again similar to Beogh ability.
That should probably give him more than enough power to survive the late/extended game and shine well before.
Last two things maybe sound like an overkill, but honestly, who doesn't like messing with his little minions?
Well?

Sar

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 12:25

Re: Buff Yred

Yred is very good in late game (Depths, Vaults, Zot).

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 15:33

Re: Buff Yred

Yred is already one of the stronger gods for the 3-rune game. I don't think Yred also needs to be an amazing god in 15 rune games. It's not a bad thing for god power to change in different areas of the game.

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Post Thursday, 3rd December 2015, 19:05

Re: Buff Yred

Yred is also one of the best gods in the game for three runes, up there with Trog and Makhleb. I might even say he's stronger than either once mid-late game hits. Bone Dragons, Profane Servitors, your enslaved soul and the legions of undead will steamroll through a lot of late-game threats once you get the ball rolling and pick up momentum. If you want to go 15-runes with a Yred worshipper, switching Gods is a perfectly reasonable option.

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 05:27

Re: Buff Yred

I would really like to see something. I mean they could make him do just something weak late game. It rlly bugs me. He's my fav diety as well aND I logged just to post this thread. Just make the piety gain rlly rlly small or give him something g little so he can at least not just decay away and drain life could maybe do something else. I mean would something like that be fair. What would everyone think of that. I mean he gets totally screwed on alot of the end stuff. Thoughts?

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 06:07

Re: Buff Yred

Lasty wrote:Yred is already one of the stronger gods for the 3-rune game. I don't think Yred also needs to be an amazing god in 15 rune games. It's not a bad thing for god power to change in different areas of the game.
They said Yred should not be literally useless in extended. Responding as if they asked you to make Yred "amazing" in extended is just needlessly hostile. If you don't want to address the topic, you can say so. You don't need to come up with straw men instead.

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 06:31

Re: Buff Yred

Piety gain on demon kills is probably sufficient to maintain Yred as a playable, but relatively weak, god in extended:

  • Animate dead only works on enemies that leave remains; only weaker enemies in extended leave remains (hell houds/hellephants etc) so this stays weak.
  • Pain mirror stays the same.
  • Gifted undead slaves are probably outclassed by extended, at least in tough encounters, though I'm not sure how a demon panoply in one of the hells matches up against a bone dragon or profane servitor since the demons' more threatening attacks are often negative-flavored and both are negative energy-immune, but on the flip side flayed ghosts and profane servitors are significantly less powerful against demonic foes.
  • Drain life is nigh-useless.
  • Enslave soul is weak, very few natural holiness monsters worth enslaving.

So in the extended end game you get whatever you collected through the standard game, pain mirror, and servants; animate dead and drain life are so gimped as to be near-useless.

So basically you get pain mirror and meat shields.

Doesn't seem terribly unbalanced, likely still quite weak in the extended game.

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 16:16

Re: Buff Yred

duvessa wrote:
Lasty wrote:Yred is already one of the stronger gods for the 3-rune game. I don't think Yred also needs to be an amazing god in 15 rune games. It's not a bad thing for god power to change in different areas of the game.
They said Yred should not be literally useless in extended. Responding as if they asked you to make Yred "amazing" in extended is just needlessly hostile. If you don't want to address the topic, you can say so. You don't need to come up with straw men instead.

"Amazing" may have been overstating things, but the OP's proposals seemed like an attempt to make Yred quite strong in the late/extended game, and that's what I was responding to.

I have no objection to Yred granting piety on demon kills.

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Dis Charger

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 17:15

Re: Buff Yred

Yred recently got indirectly buffed anyways.

Iron Giants with Stone Giant BANDS in DIS are living (can be reanimated and are well, the Iron Giant leading the band has the most HP of any living thing; other than the Unique Tiamat). [They are actually worse (harder) enemies than Hell Sentinels; except for being less resistant.]
Doom Hounds in Tar are living. [But have rN+++ so reanimation only]
Salamanders in Geh are living.
Shard Shrikes in Coc are living.

Side note: Iron Giants are also a TSO nerf. Since they are a really powerful thing in Hell that you can't stab etc. because of TSO rules.

I'll say something more constructive in it's own thread in a bit.
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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 17:34

Re: Buff Yred

Lasty wrote:Yred is already one of the stronger gods for the 3-rune game. I don't think Yred also needs to be an amazing god in 15 rune games. It's not a bad thing for god power to change in different areas of the game.

But why is it better for a god to be bad post-mid?
And why is it worse for a god to remain competitive with other gods in late/extended?
Why is unbalanced better than balanced?

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Barkeep

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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 19:40

Re: Buff Yred

The same reason all of those things are true for species, imo. Having a variety of gods, who are useful given different conditions and game goals, makes Crawl more replayable and fun, as far as I'm concerned.

Turn those rhetorical questions around: why is it bad for gods to be uncompetitive in extended? Why should "balance" be desirable among the gods? If it is, why isn't balance desirable for species?
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Post Friday, 4th December 2015, 20:31

Re: Buff Yred

No, I was the one who was turning the perspective around, a point which you may have missed: Lasty asserts “unbalanced is fine” which I challenge with the assertion “balanced is fine”. Technically nobody has backed up either assertion yet since it’s such a fundamental topic that you have to delve deep into the core of things, it's like backing up "evil is good" or "evil is bad". But when you put the assertions side-by-side, the more reasonable one naturally dominates the other.

Balance is not about making everything equal in power, since then all games would play the same and good decisions would not be rewarded, but it’s good to aim for a similar amount of potential power even if it’s drastically different in kind.

Every species has benefits and penalties, even if one easily outweighs the other. Even a mummy has rPois and rTorment. No species is purely worse in every way to another species, e.g. we don’t have a human with better stats and nothing else, or a human with worse apts and nothing else. But is there ever a time Yred has any edge over another god in extended? (I haven’t tried it TBH.)

Lasty implies that making a certain god less unbalanced is undesirable.

Also, unbalanced species are extenuated by being chosen before the game starts.

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Post Saturday, 5th December 2015, 00:03

Re: Buff Yred

"Why is unbalanced better than balanced?"

It offers a trade-off. Perhaps Yred gives power now but less utility later while other gods (TSO, Ash) are weak early and provide a big advantage later. I hardly think the balance over the course of a full game is perfect or even close to it but I think having relative power levels differ at different stages of the game is desirable. It adds variety between games and forces players to decide when they'll want the most help when picking a god.

One might argue that Yred is balanced over the course of a full game and not that "less unbalanced is undesirable." However if Yred is unbalanced then this should be addressed but there is a disagreement on whether Yred is particularly unbalanced or not. I don't think that Lasty implies what you say he does.

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Post Saturday, 5th December 2015, 08:45

Re: Buff Yred

Also, balanced and unbalanced may both be fine, but unbalanced is a lot easier to design. You can add/remove things so that you find the game interesting without worrying about a certain god becoming different strength than the others.

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Post Saturday, 5th December 2015, 10:35

Re: Buff Yred

ydeve: Yes, that is true.

There is a huge difference between, say, spells and weapons versus gods and species: spells have to compete with each other, so one dominating the field becomes a no-brainer and the others get unused. Same with weapons. So balance is necessary, and there are very many changes in these regards, for every version.

Species, on the other hand, are completely unlike this: if one is much stronger than the other, it's no big deal, and more like a difficulty setting. There might still be a feeling that one is too easy, or too hard, and there are changes around this, but it's much less compelling than for spells or weapons.

Gods are somewhat in the middle, because you stick with one for a long while, you can change them in the game, so there is some balance competition. But altogether they're a lot more like species, I'd say. If some god is considered a challenge god (like Xom, or as some would claim, Cheibriados), then winning a game with this god makes you that much cooler compared to someone who won another TrBe.

That does not mean Yredelemnul never needs changes, and in fact, there have been many over the years. Balance among gods, especially in the extended game, is just not forcing our hands. It is crucial that the god works early (which Yredelemnul does).

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Post Saturday, 5th December 2015, 14:22

Re: Buff Yred

n1000 wrote: not that "less unbalanced is undesirable."


woah, man, don't be so negative
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Post Sunday, 6th December 2015, 05:07

Re: Buff Yred

To say that Yred's not very high priority on the list of flagrantly bad aspects of Crawl is one thing, to disagree with OP is another. I mean, to really say that OP is wrong you must claim "Yred should suck in extended" which I don't think is easy to do. There's no reason to be defensive about Yred's place now - it might be "fine" but good balance enriches the game every time.

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Post Sunday, 6th December 2015, 12:20

Re: Buff Yred

One way I guess to make yred relevant in extended besides demon killing piety is perhaps zero piety decay. At least you get piety when you kill stuff with yred...(I really can't stand new nemelex and new ely of press "o" for piety... ash makes up for it kicking ass later).

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Post Monday, 7th December 2015, 15:29

Re: Buff Yred

Pollen_Golem wrote:Every species has benefits and penalties, even if one easily outweighs the other. Even a mummy has rPois and rTorment. No species is purely worse in every way to another species, e.g. we don’t have a human with better stats and nothing else, or a human with worse apts and nothing else. But is there ever a time Yred has any edge over another god in extended?

Your argument here is that while species balance means species have benefits and penalties and no one species is 100% better than another in all ways, god balance means that at any given phase of the game each god must be better at something than all other gods. Yred is better than other gods in many contexts, but extended isn't one of those contexts. Humans are categorically better than mummies in many contexts, but necromancy and torment resistance aren't some of those contexts. If you cherry-pick contexts enough, I'm sure you can find a way to use this argument to prove that literally any game element is unbalanced.

Pollen_Golem wrote:Lasty asserts “unbalanced is fine”
Lasty implies that making a certain god less unbalanced is undesirable.

I didn't say any of the things you ascribe to me, and I don't think anything I said can reasonably be understood to imply them.

My argument here is only this: I don't see the need to change Yred's powers to make Yred more powerful in extended. I have no objection, as I stated clearly, to giving Yred piety for killing demons, making it easier to access Yred's powers in extended.

Changes take work and have the potential to make things worse, so when you're advocating for a change, you have to offer a reason for that change; as such "why not do it?" isn't a compelling argument. I made it clear that I don't see a need for Yred's powers to change, and I have yet to hear a compelling reason why they should.

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Post Monday, 7th December 2015, 19:42

Re: Buff Yred

humans are better than mummies at necromancy

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Post Monday, 7th December 2015, 20:07

Re: Buff Yred

Awright, just torment then.
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Post Monday, 7th December 2015, 22:09

Re: Buff Yred

How exactly are humans better at necromancy? They both have -1 spellcasting and +0 necro.
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Post Monday, 7th December 2015, 22:19

Re: Buff Yred

Mummies can't cast most of the best necromancy spells. This includes everything but Haunt in the Necronomicon, as well as helpful spells like Regen.

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