Make Boulder beetle take more ranged damge when rolling!

[Enish]

I just made my Ogre Hurler and wondered what would happen if a massive monster would accelerate towards a missiled rock.

[twelwe]

Yea

[Siegurt]

Are you also suggesting that monsters should take *less* damage if they're moving away from a ranged projectile? Are we expected to optimize for the relative velocities of all objects? That sounds somewhat horrible to me.

[duvessa]

the centaur shoots an arrow! but since you are running away, the arrow hits you in the butt (12 damage)

[Pollen_Golem]

Considering that weight in aums is known for both boulder beetle corpses and any piece of ammo, the speed of missiles prior to impact is the only piece of the puzzle preventing us from easily reprogramming rolling boulder beetles to change speed and trajectory upon getting hit in physically realistic accordance with conservation of momentum.

[chequers]

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/181

[WalrusKing]

FR: For Water Elementals and Shoals, steal the Dwarf Fortress fluid mechanics physics but really really quietly so that they dont hear

[Pollen_Golem]

  Code:

 3433 +    // Rolling boulder beetles are vulnerable 
 3434 +    if (this->rolling()) 
 3435 +        ac /= 2; 


  Code:

Should encourage players to make bad decisions around the
easy-to-mispredict motion of rolling boulder beetles.

Wow, really?

[daggaz]

We need to code for all the floor curvature and imperfections first, I find it highly unlikely and totally unrealistic that a boulder beetle, once rolling, would continue on in a perfectly straight line without deviation, nay without even slowing down! What about friction?! This violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, and it is only a matter of time before the denizens of the lower depths harness the raw, awesome potential of boulder beetles to destroy the world as we know it. Devs need to step up to the plate here, or we are all doomed.

[chequers]

  Code:

 3433 +    // Rolling boulder beetles are vulnerable 
 3434 +    if (this->rolling()) 
 3435 +        ac /= 2; 


  Code:

Should encourage players to make bad decisions around the
easy-to-mispredict motion of rolling boulder beetles.

Wow, really?

What? I thought it was a good idea, if that's not clear.

[tasonir]

I think most people are taking issue with the "easy to mispredict" claim. I mean, it's a minor thing, but I'd agree they aren't that difficult to predict. I usually don't bother with "figure out the whole path" I just know if it just launched itself at me, I step to the side (for any reasonable value of 'side') and it both 1) won't hit me, and 2) I'll be able to hit it 1-2 times as it sails by.

That doesn't make your change a bad idea, by the way, just what I think most people are reacting to. The more serious issue is the comment about ranged attacks being a thing means that players don't have to take the risk of being near the rolling beetle when they can just fireball it from a distance for increased damage, so they're getting a benefit for no additional risk. Imho damaging boulder beetles is rarely a problem, it's more trying to avoid taking a large hit, either from the roll or their melee. Poison needles take them down swiftly, usually while they're helpfully rolling away from you.

[duvessa]

The more serious issue is that boulder beetles are harmless, the rolling gimmick is neither dangerous nor good in any other way, and no amount of messing with it is going to change that because slow projectiles don't work in Crawl's geometry. See also orb of destruction.

[archaeo]

Could you expand on that, or link me to you expanding on it previously, duvessa? I've always liked the slow projectiles/boulder beetles, and generally find their gameplay impact fun, so I'm not sure if I understand why they categorically don't work.

[Sprucery]

Well, boulder beetles for one are extremely easy to avoid. I don't remember ever being unintentionally hit by them.

[tasonir]

They're like a lot of monsters in crawl: Not that threatening by themselves, dangerous if you're currently involved in a fight with more than you can handle. If they have a clear path to you, you now need to get out of the way, which will probably mean taking some damage from whatever else is nearby. As a bonus once you do move it'll probably help damage whatever is chasing you. They do pretty heavy melee damage in any case, they can be dangerous if you let them swing at you. Poison needles means you usually don't have to, but you might not have any.

[duvessa]

1. boulder beetle starts rolling
2. now you know EXACTLY which squares it will pass through...if you've studied how crawl quantizes straight lines to the grid, that is (or it was in one of the 8 easy directions).
3. not that it matters anyway, since you have 5 hours to avoid it and it's basically like the boulder beetle doesn't exist until it hits a wall, except as a sack of free xp

1. orb of destruction starts moving towards you
2. now you can reliably dodge it...if you've studied how its turning works, how it quantizes to the grid, and the special case for moving diagonally past it. (and you don't forget which squares it was previously in)

1. orb of destruction starts moving towards monster
2. now you can only be assured it will hit if you've been careful about turn order and your action delay, because monsters can path around it during their actions

1. monster has orb of destruction
2. now you should stand diagonally adjacent to the monster, because that makes its point-blank orbs of destruction miss sometimes

1. player has orb of destruction
2. now you should stand adjacent to the monster but not diagonally, because that makes your point-blank orbs of destruction miss sometimes

if you want boulder beetles to have this stupid gimmick then at least have the basic sense to make it instantaneous (boulder beetle warps adjacent to you and hits you as soon as it uses the ability). then it wouldn't be completely broken by the game's geometry for both space and time. and as a bonus there would be an actual reason to fight boulder beetles in melee, unlike now where you just bait them into rolling and hit them while they roll because they can't attack while rolling. and no, letting them turn or attack while rolling wouldn't fix this, ranged attacks still exist.

[pubby]

now you know EXACTLY which squares it will pass through...if you've studied how crawl quantizes straight lines to the grid, that is (or it was in one of the 8 easy directions).

[xentronium]

FR: Unique stone giant who tosses boulder beetles at you.

[Fishman]

Wait, if the beetle curls up so that its weak spots are hidden underneath its carapace wouldn't it take LESS damage?

[Rast]

The more serious issue is that boulder beetles are harmless, the rolling gimmick is neither dangerous nor good in any other way, and no amount of messing with it is going to change that because slow projectiles don't work in Crawl's geometry. See also orb of destruction.

But, it's fun....

[duvessa]

i don't find it fun at all to waste a bunch of time dealing with a monster that can't hurt me but takes a long time to kill

[daggaz]

I found a vault once where you got stuck in a narrow corridor and a boulder beetle came smashing down towards you. It was actually quite a close shave as the vault appeared well before you would normally find a boulder beetle, but it also had the drawback in that it forced the player into a limited situation. You either dig or blink past or teleport (and pray), or you get steamrolled, and if you get steamrolled, you better be a high HP race or you are going to die.

[prozacelf]

I found a vault once where you got stuck in a narrow corridor and a boulder beetle came smashing down towards you. It was actually quite a close shave as the vault appeared well before you would normally find a boulder beetle, but it also had the drawback in that it forced the player into a limited situation. You either dig or blink past or teleport (and pray), or you get steamrolled, and if you get steamrolled, you better be a high HP race or you are going to die.

Was that the "Indiana Jones" vault with the human corpse and the hat and the whip? I always thought that one was a fun idea at least.