hellfire is a bad game element

[Pollen_Golem]

Greetings, my name is Alatreon, and I just had a really interesting and fun character a couple of days ago. He was a GrBe of Makh, and was able to conquer 2 zigs, all of pan, and tomb. He had 11 skills maxed out and 80 AC, 28 EV, and 32 SH. He resisted everything but cold with three pips. He had but one rune left to go, which was in Gehenna. He was on the bottom floor of Geh, where he died. You want to know how he died, he didn’t die by Asmodeus, or by monster bumrushing him. No, he died by two hellions, two tier-2 demons with hellfire killed the Gr that beat 2 zigs and had 14 runes. He had nothing to fear, except for hellfire.
This brings me to my main point, hellfire is a bad game element. That only exists to be able to kill an op character. In fact, it is the only things said character has to fear. This is wrong, a game should not have to rely on 1 ability to kill a player, especially if that ability can’t be mitigated in any single way.
My solution to this problem is to add various other abilities that can hurt or kill the player. Things like adding a pain brand to executioners, a version of firestorm/glaciate to Brimstone and Ice Fiends. LCS to Hell Sentinels. Things such as these serve to further enhance and diversify the monsters from the previous classing system of: Hellfire=Dangerous, No Hellfire=Pushover. Take Ancient Liches as a well-designed enemy. They don’t have any irresistible attacks outside of Torment, and yet are still one of the most powerful enemies in the game. Another good change would be to make Hellfire like torment, where for each + of rF you have, you gain a 5% reduction to it.
Anyway, this is just my rant about hellfire and it’s effect on the late game. I hope Hellfire is changed, because it is one of the few things holding this game back.
TL;DR: Extended needs new ways of killing the player beyond standard hellfire

[triorph]

Well Gargoyle's are strong against everything in the game except hellfire, so its quite possible that he's just developed some bad habits that gargoyle's inherently overcame, and then lost to the hellfire when it came up. Gr is already strong enough as it is really.

Also how did he beat 2 zigs without encountering hellions?

[duvessa]

strong against everything in the game except damage*

[Sar]

Heaven forbid there's something in the game that can hurt your Gr past the first five levels!

[radinms]

But early orc priest is more stupid element than hellion.
One orc priest >>>>>>>>>>>> hellion island

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Geh is the hardest place in the game in my opinion as well. Torment and hellfire are my reason for disliking low-HP races because I'd often like to go for all runes if I found all the tools for it, and HP is the first line of defense there.

[bel]

This is wrong, a game should not have to rely on 1 ability to kill a player, especially if that ability can’t be mitigated in any single way.

Getting out of sight works for hellfire (and for everything else), so the above is not true. Also, killing the enemy casting hellfire works.

[byrel]

I dunno. I think that making hellfire slightly resistable might make the game have a bit more strategic depth. Regardless, it's rare that a level 27 hero will just up and die to two hellions without making any other mistakes. I suspect this is more an anecdote about a player failing to deal with his character's primary weakness than about that weakness being too strong.

Did he have throwing skills to take out hellions at range? Was he already low from a lot of torments? Were there any hellfire-vulnerable monsters he could have kept alive next to him?

Anyhow, the OP was primarily focused on buffing other damage sources, not nerfing hellfire, so... I'm really not opposed to tuning up some lategame threats.

My solution to this problem is to add various other abilities that can hurt or kill the player. Things like adding a pain brand to executioners, a version of firestorm/glaciate to Brimstone and Ice Fiends. LCS to Hell Sentinels.

Pain brand as it currently works is effectively useless in extended because rN+ disables it entirely. Perhaps have one large attack elec branded, and another pain branded? I suppose it gives you another reason for rN and rElec, which isn't bad. It also makes them more of a threat to high AC characters who currently trivialise them. Brimstone and ice fiends already strike me as nasty enough; torment and hellfire is a big deal, and ice fiends have rather good melee. LCS on hell sentinels I can entirely get behind. Maybe also LRD, since that provides them with a tool against high EV and gargoyles.

[agentgt]

I don't think hellfire is bad (game design wise) but rather the Hellion.

The Hellion really needs some love. Its a terribly boring monster which makes it even more unsatisfactory when you die to it (I too have died in Gehanna with Gr).
This is in part because of the complete RNG crapshoot that is Hell effects and also in part because Hellions only know how to do one thing.

Brimstone fiends are far deadlier 1-1 and far more interesting because of torment, durability and the fact that they are an overall apex monster in Crawl.

All Hellions do is Hellfire. Even Orc priest come with weapons and 3 other spells.

I would like to see Hellions:

* Perhaps carrying Axes for weapons. Not enough axe carrying monsters in hell/pand.
* Another Spell slot. Maybe Swiftness. I think it would be cool if monsters casted swiftness.

The additional spell slot would nerf hellions but you could compensate with greater melee damage.

BTW as a general strategy for extended I think way too many new players go nuts with AC instead of focusing on magic and stealth.
I would rather have 40AC (perhaps with shadow armour) and almost full stealth and some magic capabilities then a 80AC magnet.
Gr have +2 stealth.

[njvack]

Hellions also move and melee. So you can get them to do things other than hellfire.

Not like it's a ton of things, but they aren't hellfire statues, either.

I don't think every demon needs to have like a million antics.

[Sar]

The Hellion really needs some love. Its a terribly boring monster

I think hellions are some of the best demons there are in the game.

[ontoclasm]

Gr getting smug about their resistances, dying to Hellions, and then whining about it? Sounds like everything's working as intended to me.

[byrel]

Gr getting smug about their resistances, dying to Hellions, and then whining about it? Sounds like everything's working as intended to me.

Errr... his request was for there to be more things that are as threatening as hellfire to his character, because it makes threat analysis boring. You can make the argument that the correct answer is 'don't play a gargoyle', but he really isn't whining about dying; he's whining about the lack of depth in the threats he was facing.

[Sar]

yeah, hellfire is the only thing than is a threat to an OP character, clearly it's bad and should be removed and some other, good threats should be added later

this totally is a constructive proposal and not just "I had 80 AC and I died, this game is bullshit"

[byrel]

This is wrong, a game should not have to rely on 1 ability to kill a player, especially if that ability can’t be mitigated in any single way.

This is a reasonable position. It's a direct complaint about a lack of strategic depth.

My solution to this problem is to add various other abilities that can hurt or kill the player.

That doesn't sound like "I died, this game is bullshit".

Things like adding a pain brand to executioners, a version of firestorm/glaciate to Brimstone and Ice Fiends. LCS to Hell Sentinels. Things such as these serve to further enhance and diversify the monsters from the previous classing system of: Hellfire=Dangerous, No Hellfire=Pushover.

A reasonable brainstorming start for how to diversify the threats for late-game gargoyles. I disagree that pain will do anything, etc., but again, he's not whining about dying here; he's complaining that there's a binary threat environment.

Take Ancient Liches as a well-designed enemy. They don’t have any irresistible attacks outside of Torment, and yet are still one of the most powerful enemies in the game. Another good change would be to make Hellfire like torment, where for each + of rF you have, you gain a 5% reduction to it.

I don't think anyone would disagree that ancient liches are well-designed, or one of the more powerful enemies in the game. The direct proposal for rF slightly reducing hellfire damage sounds like a reasonable attempt to add strategy to dealing with hellfire, instead of it being only mitigatable by tactics.

Anyway, this is just my rant about hellfire and it’s effect on the late game. I hope Hellfire is changed, because it is one of the few things holding this game back.
TL;DR: Extended needs new ways of killing the player beyond standard hellfire

Again, no request to remove it. He's seriously asking for more interesting and harder enemies for a gargoyle in extended. And he's hardly the first player to complain that extended is strategically shallow.

I don't think there's any call for sarcastic putdowns here. The OP's post is somewhat thoughtful and a reasonable conversation starter.


Edit: This could be contrasted with:

I think hellions are some of the best demons there are in the game.

which really contributes nothing but your position; no ideas, reasons, anything to build a conversation on beyond 'You're wrong', 'No, you're wrong'. It's a low-effort post which doesn't really help me (or any other taverner) know why hellions are good the way they are.

[Lasty]

The direct proposal for rF slightly reducing hellfire damage sounds like a reasonable attempt to add strategy to dealing with hellfire, instead of it being only mitigatable by tactics.

You've mentioned resistible hellfire as adding "strategic depth" a few times now, but I don't understand the position. If hellfire is resistible by gear, it's just yet another gearcheck. If it's specifically resistible by rF, then it might as well just be fire. I don't consider jewelry-swapping to be a form of strategic depth (though I've heard that suggestion before). Really, the strategic aspect of crawl is primarily in skill training, and slightly in choice of spells and non-swappable gear. I suppose if hellfire were resistible only by training a "resist hellfire" skill, I could see the argument that it adds strategic depth.

Frankly, I'd rather have enemies solely pose tactical challenges, and have strategy be preparing which tactical options you'll have available and to what degree. Happily for me, that's more or less how crawl works.

[duvessa]

You guys realize the OP is ironic right?

[tasonir]

I'd definitely train quite a few levels of a "resist hellfire" skill. Not that I think one will ever exist, but if it did...I'd use it.

[byrel]

The direct proposal for rF slightly reducing hellfire damage sounds like a reasonable attempt to add strategy to dealing with hellfire, instead of it being only mitigatable by tactics.

You've mentioned resistible hellfire as adding "strategic depth" a few times now, but I don't understand the position. If hellfire is resistible by gear, it's just yet another gearcheck. If it's specifically resistible by rF, then it might as well just be fire. I don't consider jewelry-swapping to be a form of strategic depth (though I've heard that suggestion before). Really, the strategic aspect of crawl is primarily in skill training, and slightly in choice of spells and non-swappable gear. I suppose if hellfire were resistible only by training a "resist hellfire" skill, I could see the argument that it adds strategic depth.

Frankly, I'd rather have enemies solely pose tactical challenges, and have strategy be preparing which tactical options you'll have available and to what degree. Happily for me, that's more or less how crawl works.

Hellfire clearly couldn't subscibe to anything like the rF damage reduction and be what it is. But you could make it, say, 20% resistable with rF+++, which could theoretically make you make strategic choices about what non-swappable armour to wear (Especially if we had a lot of hellions spawn in cocytus or something.) I'm not 100% sold on this suggestion, because I think it's impact would be minimal given that hellfire tends to be primarily in places where there's a lot of straight fire damage too, so it doesn't effectively add decision making.

I agree that jewelry swapping is tactical, and while technically deciding to pay an inventory slot for the option is strategic, it's generally not very interesting.

I also think that crawl might be improved by massively buffing jewellery and making it not quick-swappable because swapping jewellery is rarely an interesting decision. Though I did have a run recently where I had only a ring {*/+tele rF++} for rF in Z:5. It led to fun times, and actually was a decision. Which left me in the middle of 2-3 Oof and Aliches a time or two.

Edit: @duvessa I don't see how he's being ironic.

[Sar]

which really contributes nothing but your position

I think they are dangerous because their presence on the screen makes me sometimes stop for a second or two, I thought that was obvious for anyone who ever saw one.

[KoboldLord]

Edit: @duvessa I don't see how he's being ironic.

Ironic isn't quite the right word. Rather than using any of his own actual words, the OP quoted a lengthy diatribe from another person who is not actually present to defend or clarify their words. The quoted text is an emotional outburst that is highly likely to make this person a chew toy for some of the more acerbic posters of the forum, and since the OP hasn't actually taken ownership of any of the words posted the OP can jump in on either side of the argument later, or slink off without posting at all if a fight starts without further prodding. No matter which side of the argument the OP chooses to join later, the OP can claim with apparent reasonableness that the chosen side was obviously the side the OP was on from the start.

I don't know for absolute sure that the OP was posting in bad faith, here, but block-quoting somebody who isn't isn't here to provide clarification or context seems like dirty pool to me.

[archaeo]

It would help if P_G had provided some context beyond quote tags. Alatreon is a tileschat/webtiles regular, and his computer is apparently a loaner laptop from his high school, which he has claimed means he can't create his own account. I'm not sure if I buy that story -- why can he have a webtiles account but not a forum account? -- but it's the one he gave in tileschat when P_G posted this.

They can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that P_G was just trying to help out by passing along Alatreon's post and didn't have any nefarious intent or whatever. We don't have rules about "proxy posting" or anything, and P_G doesn't strike me as the type to try and manipulate debate.

[agentgt]

Some one new plays the game with a different way of thinking and a fresh open mind and offers a opinion to the game.

Someone else takes his opinion and reposts it as a blockquoted joke (I am assuming that is what happened if not ignore me... I feel dumb for missing that it was blockquoted) so that the rest of the tavern group-think-gang can make fun and than circle j@#$ each other with "Thanks" ...

And the OP (blockquoted guy) has a point. Which would you rather die to: Two Hellions or the Serpent of Hell?
Caustic Shrike, Shard strikes are more interesting deaths.

IMO dying to hellion is sort of like accidental drowning or stepping into a trap because usually most of the hellion deaths particularly with chei are pressing movement keys too fast which one could argue makes the game enjoyable but maybe we should just remove drown protection and zot trap confirmation while were at it (I'm exaggerating greatly here but I do feel for the OP blockquoted guy').

Also I liked how no one told him how to prevent said death (ie stealth or magic).

I decided to check out tavern for a few days but I think I'll stick to IRC. I think I like that medium better. To each and their own. I'll come back in a few months.

[archaeo]

I also feel fairly certain that P_G wasn't trying to throw Alatreon to the wolves/"the tavern group-think-gang."

Also, people (including you) provided a range of ways to avoid dying to hellfire, and I see several people bringing up critiques in addition to the OP. I guess I'm not seeing the "circle j@#$" here? In fact, if anything, I'm seeing a fairly portent "counterj@#$"? I think we can just say "jerk," too?

[agentgt]

I didn't read KoboldLords' post prior but that is basically my sentiment. I didn't mean to imply that the posters did actually group-think but rather the OP was hoping for it.

[Sar]

Which would you rather die to: Two Hellions or the Serpent of Hell?

I would rather not die? What's your point? "Plain" monsters should be completely harmless so players would only die to ones with cool names?

Caustic Shrike, Shard strikes are more interesting deaths.

Why? Because instead of "oh, I made a tactical mistake" the player can say "well I died because the game didn't spawn the necessary resistance/because Lasty is evil and there was nothing I could do/fuck this shit I'm going back to 0.16"?

fr: rename hellions to "hellfire shrikes"

[radinms]

in late game if you die due to hellion, you are stupid.
in early game if you die due to orc priest, early game is stupid.

all extended enemies are pretty weak compared to early enemies.
hellfire is pretty weak because that is only 3d20 or 3d15.
torment is pretty weak because that is only half hp at max.
dispel undead? 3d25 or 3d27. early game's attack is more powerful.

See early game, that is the most stupid part of the game.
orc priest can cast torment that can also kill directly characters who are not op!

[Sar]

actually 99% of the time I die in early game it's because I made a mistake

usually a pretty obvious one at that (if you ever seen me play you know I am not the cautious type)

but I'm sure you radinms is a much better player and never make any mistakes in earlygame!

[radinms]

playing early game is a big mistake

[Sar]

playing video games is a mistake
<mod edit>

[Lasty]

Why? Because instead of "oh, I made a tactical mistake" the player can say "well I died because the game didn't spawn the necessary resistance/because Lasty is evil and there was nothing I could do/fuck this shit I'm going back to 0.16"?

Shard shrikes still aren't my fault -- PF gets the evil credit for that one.

[Sprucery]

playing early game is a big mistake

Early game is still the best part. At least you can die there.

[byrel]

Which would you rather die to: Two Hellions or the Serpent of Hell?

I would rather not die? What's your point? "Plain" monsters should be completely harmless so players would only die to ones with cool names?

Caustic Shrike, Shard strikes are more interesting deaths.

Why? Because instead of "oh, I made a tactical mistake" the player can say "well I died because the game didn't spawn the necessary resistance/because Lasty is evil and there was nothing I could do/fuck this shit I'm going back to 0.16"?

fr: rename hellions to "hellfire shrikes"

The point is we have a general expectation that boss fights be harder than mook fights in our games. In crawl that's often not the case because we just burn consumables to make boss fights easier. Which is why shrikes etc. that make us burn consumables elsewhere so we don't always have plenty for boss fights are good. I'm not sold on hellions because they never impose a strategic cost; I've never popped a consumable or god power (aside from shadow step and maybe heroism) to deal with them. Special cases like hellions island I'd likely pop a scroll of blinking and fog for, but those aren't the primary location of hellions and are good design because of their layout, not the monster.

As anyone reading this forum knows, I'm quite the fan of shrikes and juggernauts. They're more interesting than hellions to me, because there are more options for dealing with them (especially for burning consumables to deal with them.)

[agentgt]

Which would you rather die to: Two Hellions or the Serpent of Hell?

I would rather not die? What's your point? "Plain" monsters should be completely harmless so players would only die to ones with cool names?

Caustic Shrike, Shard strikes are more interesting deaths.

Why? Because instead of "oh, I made a tactical mistake" the player can say "well I died because the game didn't spawn the necessary resistance/because Lasty is evil and there was nothing I could do/fuck this shit I'm going back to 0.16"?

fr: rename hellions to "hellfire shrikes"

Well yeah names and content do matter. Also variety matters. It is a fantasy game. Also the above example monsters compared to the hellion aren't every where in the extended game, do multiple things/effects and yes have cool names (even the flavor description of Hellions is pretty weak).

Hell I wish there were more Zot traps that actually worked as that might cause some interesting deaths (I know that has been beaten to death). The new corrosion changes are a great change that can cause some interesting extended deaths. However there is an overwhelming number of deaths in extended caused by Hellfire. I haven't checked Sequell in while on it but I'm sure its the number one lvl 27 killer. I think variety is good.

Basically I agree with what 'byrel' said and I guess I'll "Thank" him since that is apparently what people do here (I really hate that forum feature... I'm just not a fan of modern forums I guess... the whole quoting and thanking crap).

[Sar]

A hellion.
A frightful demon, covered in roaring hellfire.

sounds pretty scary to me, I'd rather die fighting a hellish daemon than a goddamn bird (no offence to shrikes though, I like them)

Hellions are beautiful in their simplicity. They're faster than you (but not too much, and they don't have any movement gimmicks). They have smitey hellfire. They actually use their smitey hellfire (unlike the various priests and scorchers, who have multitudes of oh-so-flavourful abilities they choose between at random). They have one of the funniest vaults in the game dedicated to them. You deal with them by careful movement, breaking los (scrolls of fog are pretty much the anti-hellion consumable) and killing them really fast (they don't have any ridiculous resists, AC or EV, in fact they have a weakness to cold). I admire their purity.

And yes, I agree that extended could use a better variety of threats. I don't have any good ideas, and neither does the player quoted in the OP. There were some amazing ideas ITT though, like giving every fiend a storm spell. Because if you aren't playing a Gr^TSO with 80 AC and fully covered resistances, fuck you. Git gud, or die trying.

[byrel]

Things like adding ... a version of firestorm/glaciate to Brimstone and Ice Fiends. LCS to Hell Sentinels.

There were some amazing ideas ITT though, like giving every fiend a storm spell. Because if you aren't playing a Gr^TSO with 80 AC and fully covered resistances, fuck you. Git gud, or die trying.

Why so angry bro?

Do you find that salamander stormcallers prevent non-gargoyles from completing the 3-rune game? Seriously. We already have a storm spell caster in vaults. I can't imagine that adding a variant of a storm spell to fire/ice fiends would destroy extended. In fact the reason I'm a bit leary to support that proposal is it might NERF them by making them torment less often. And upgrading iron shot to LCS on hell sentinels wouldn't really break the game either, and would be a nerf to the whole 80AC -20% HP character you're claiming his suggestions would mandate.

It's not dumb. Though I think making executioners have an acid attack or two is actually the correct solution for them. Pain is meh.

[Sar]

Salamanders chant their storm for a couple of turns and when/if it does hits, all it accomplishes is usually killing chaff around you.

Iron shot fits ~thematically~ on hell sents, plus well, it already does a ton of damage and has more range. I wouldn't be totally opposed to LCS sents though.

Acid execs would be almost literally shrikes.

Why so angry bro?

Sorry.

[Lasty]

FWIW, they'd probably have to be corrode executioners, not acid executioners -- acid attacks only have a chance to corrode if they bypass AC, which is just not going to happen against a high AC character, much less an 80 AC gargoyle.

[byrel]

Interesting.

[CanOfWorms]

Make a smite targeted attack that's resistable by INT, tia

Edit: Looking up the GrBe in question I just realized it was the same one that was clearing Zigs with Immolation + Disc of Storms.

[Sar]

There's already a smite targeted attack that's resistable by Int, it's called Brain Feed.

[CanOfWorms]

*that deals damage

Edit: also make it more deadly/common in extended???

[Sar]

Well, being at negative Int has some damaging effects IIRC.

Maybe it'd be effective if it sucked away Int faster? And if statloss was faster to recover, too.

[CanOfWorms]

Well, according to crawlwiki (yes, I know, crawlwiki), Brain Feed deals 1d3 INT damage and has to overcome MR (???) so it's a minor inconvenience for most extended characters. Maybe having it deal 1d(INT/3) damage and not requiring an MR check would make it more potent.

[Sar]

Brain feed: Attempts to drain your intelligence by 1d3 points, succeeds 1/3 times. Smite-targeted, evil according to TSO.

[Croases]

If Gr wants something to fear, give Hell Sentinels Shatter.

In fact, make another 1 that has a no-changes aura (so no transforming into something, no getting out of your current transformation, no charms you don't already have etc.) and give them Shatter too. It will be fun when a hell effect deposits one on you in Statue Form.