Does anybody enjoy non-melee backgrounds?

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

It seems to me that all non-melee backgrounds are all about micromanagement, and I don't enjoy it at all. Does someone find magic backgrounds actually enjoyable to play? Especially the squishy ones?

Edit: And this doesn't belong to this subboard, could a mod please move this to CYC?

[radinms]

magic backgrounds don't have worship at D1, so you have to sacrifice pre-temple game.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

magic backgrounds don't have worship at D1, so you have to sacrifice pre-temple game.

What I meant is, that what's the point of using all these hexes/conjurations/keyboardpressurations when you can just hit the monster with a big stick and be done with it. I used to get the challenge part of it, but now I just find it obnoxious. Too much effort to accomplish the same result.

I get skalds. You summon the backup, and keep on tabbing, maybe position yourself in a way that you reap the benefits. But still, the game is all about whacking monsters, and the user-frienliesth way is to hit it and be done with it.

[archaeo]

I enjoy non-melee backgrounds, and I can think of lots of players who frequently prefer to do a fair bit of spellcasting as part of their normal Crawling. Some players prefer simplicity, others prefer complexity, and Crawl's a big enough game to accommodate both.

Edit: And this doesn't belong to this subboard, could a mod please move this to CYC?

Sure.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

One of the reasons I posted this was the fact that I tried the micromanagement playstyle for a while, but it's just so much more vulnerable. For an EV-based character, getting confused or paralyzed is the end. For a plate armour dude, not so much.

To even things out, for example MR could depend on armour a bit. Dudes in a robe, could have better resistances and that could be one selling point of not just wearing plate and be done with the threats. Just like heavy armour hinders spellcasting, it could also hinder MR or other things that a lack of can kill a dude.

[edgefigaro]

I like Su, Ne, En, and VM (though i have qualms with the poison school). AE and AM is awful (where is portal projectile??). Ambivalent about the rest. Wz is particularly strange.

There are alot of fun spells to play with in the early midgame that are never really relevant unless you are playing a caster start and find them in a book. Availability of spells is a problem.

Sif is not a fun god. Trog and Oka are fun gods. More Uniques should carry limited books. Jessica, Sigmund, Grindr, Dowan. More spells early would make casters more fun, and less like "omg, I'm so sick of the AE shock bounce minigame. Lair is going to take forever. I should have just taken that trog altar and burned my book."

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I like enchanter of those, as one can run through the dungeon one-hitting most mofos with melee and be done with it. The others require this micromanagement playstyle I was talking about and I always start wondering whether not just AC'ing up wouldn't be a better solution.

[Sar]

fr: remove spells

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

For example, getting turned to stone in Lair is usually no problem at all with high AC dudes, just a minor inconvenience. EV-based dudes can turn to deadness in the same situation, no matter what their spell set may be.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

fr: remove spells

I'd say spells should be more powerful compared to just hitting things with a stick. If it means nerfing the stick and buffing spells, it'd at least be a step to a better direction.

It's no surprise that people who win these magic backgrounds on a regular basis usually disregard the magic aspect and just play them as a bit of a challenge background that lose a couple of early levels in the chosen main weapon skill and Armour and Dodging skills and just turn them into tanks.

[Sar]

Uh, winrate-wise disregarding your book from D:1 is probably not a good idea on most book backgrounds. It's a good idea on some though, and on some races - for all, yeah. But something like IE is second only to Be, as long as you pick a race reasonably good at magic.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Uh, winrate-wise disregarding your book from D:1 is probably not a good idea on most book backgrounds. It's a good idea on some though, and on some races - for all, yeah. But something like IE is second only to Be, as long as you pick a race reasonably good at magic.

I have recent experience with transmuters. I found out that I have a better chance of survival if I just put on a heavy coat and disregard the transmutations, and just play it as a monk in iron. None of the early transmutations provide any AC, and AC rules in this game early on.

[ontoclasm]

It's no surprise that people who win these magic backgrounds on a regular basis usually disregard the magic aspect and just play them as a bit of a challenge background that lose a couple of early levels in the chosen main weapon skill and Armour and Dodging skills and just turn them into tanks.

I dunno where you got this impression, but it's not true at all. It's unusual to play a ~pure caster~ who never uses anything but magic to kill stuff, but that's not because magic is bad, it's because melee is easy to pick up and weak enemies don't deserve your MP. Tabbing through them makes sure you have access to your magic for important targets. In other words, getting a few dirt-cheap levels of M&F and Armour doesn't make you stop being a wizard, it makes you a better wizard.

[Magipi]

Uh, winrate-wise disregarding your book from D:1 is probably not a good idea on most book backgrounds. It's a good idea on some though, and on some races - for all, yeah. But something like IE is second only to Be, as long as you pick a race reasonably good at magic.

I have recent experience with transmuters. I found out that I have a better chance of survival if I just put on a heavy coat and disregard the transmutations, and just play it as a monk in iron. None of the early transmutations provide any AC, and AC rules in this game early on.

Well, transmuter is a pretty weak start, but that is mostly because unarmed is bad early on, so I doubt a monk is better. But when you survive to reach XL 2, you can learn Sticks to snakes, and that makes a huge difference. A monk in some +0 plate is nowhere near as powerful as a Tm and 2 adders.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

It's no surprise that people who win these magic backgrounds on a regular basis usually disregard the magic aspect and just play them as a bit of a challenge background that lose a couple of early levels in the chosen main weapon skill and Armour and Dodging skills and just turn them into tanks.

I dunno where you got this impression, but it's not true at all. It's unusual to play a ~pure caster~ who never uses anything but magic to kill stuff, but that's not because magic is bad, it's because melee is easy to pick up and weak enemies don't deserve your MP. Tabbing through them makes sure you have access to your magic for important targets. In other words, getting a few dirt-cheap levels of M&F and Armour doesn't make you stop being a wizard, it makes you a better wizard.

I may be wrong on this account, just my impression. Maybe it's due to my personal experience that high AC trumps whatever benefits one reaps from the starting spellbook. Apart from skalds for me. I usually don't go higher than scale early on to be able to cast Regen and SW.

So my impression could be wrong here.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Well, transmuter is a pretty weak start, but that is mostly because unarmed is bad early on, so I doubt a monk is better. But when you survive to reach XL 2, you can learn Sticks to snakes, and that makes a huge difference. A monk in some +0 plate is nowhere near as powerful as a Tm and 2 adders.

It certainly is, and it doesn't get powerful until one has high AC/EV and Blade Hands. Sticks to Snakes, I must admit that I often disregard that spell after having gotten to a point where I can survive adders early on, maybe I'm doing it wrong.

[jejorda2]

The game is all about whacking monsters, and the user-frienliesth way is to hit it and be done with it.

The game is not all about whacking monsters.

The game is about exploring how different approaches to the skill screen can give you different ways to use the random finds to avoid dying to the random encounters in random terrain.

On the other hand, ThreeInvisibleDucks is all about wacking monsters.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

The game is all about whacking monsters, and the user-frienliesth way is to hit it and be done with it.

The game is not all about whacking monsters.

The game is about exploring how different approaches to the skill screen can give you different ways to use the random finds to avoid dying to the random encounters in random terrain.

On the other hand, ThreeInvisibleDucks is all about wacking monsters.

I may be, and it comes down to enjoyment of it all. Because it's often the most efficient way, I started this thread to ask around whether people put up with the "micromanagement" to do other things instead. It's hard to beat heavy armour + a big stick with whatever variety of spells and such.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

An example: hexers try to disable the dude, often repeatedly, before trying to stab it to death. High AC dudes with big sticks usually just hit it until it's dead. I'm not comparing the effectiveness, just the effort of trying to accomplish the same thing. Melee works against all the dudes, nobody is immune to it. And dudes who just keep on hitting tend to have better melee and better defenses, because they don't have to care about spell fail percentages.

[archaeo]

I may be wrong on this account, just my impression. Maybe it's due to my personal experience that high AC trumps whatever benefits one reaps from the starting spellbook. Apart from skalds for me. I usually don't go higher than scale early on to be able to cast Regen and SW.

So my impression could be wrong here.

I would say your impression is wrong. Basically every caster background offers some kind of advantage in exchange for having low AC, and used correctly, it more than makes up for the deficit given correct play.

It's the "correct play" thing that's at issue. I absolutely agree that simply having high AC is a lot less tedious than having to constantly recast Ozo's Armour, and I'm fairly sure I've killed a good dozen characters just by forgetting to cast buffs. I would be happy to see Crawl move away from buffs you have to recast for every fight, but they're pretty entrenched in the game's design.

[Siegurt]

Well, but often with spells, you can kill things with less effort and particularly less danger than using a melee weapon, I might be able to use throw frost to kill that orc in 2-3 shots at range 6, whereas using melee i have to wait for it to get up to me, then bash it 8-10 times while it whacks on me.

For me I don't find there to be much more or less micromanagement with a spellcaster than I do with a melee user, it's *different* and melee does require less *keypresses* (at least if you use tab) but for me, keystrokes to cast spells is minor to the point of insignificance.

FWIW I do really like a more spellcasting focused playstyle, I like a melee focused one too, but I prefer having more choices (And I find that I have more of them available as a spellcaster.)

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Basically every caster background offers some kind of advantage in exchange for having low AC, and used correctly, it more than makes up for the deficit given correct play.

I don't agree. The drawback of not wearing the best armour has its drawbacks, and it's not clear cut that it's better. I used the example that in Lair, when the stoning monsters, forgetting about their names, don't do much to a high AC char, at least when they're the only baddies around.

It's the "correct play" thing that's at issue. I absolutely agree that simply having high AC is a lot less tedious than having to constantly recast Ozo's Armour, and I'm fairly sure I've killed a good dozen characters just by forgetting to cast buffs. I would be happy to see Crawl move away from buffs you have to recast for every fight, but they're pretty entrenched in the game's design.

[/quote]
I'd love to see all the buffs work the way Repel/Deflect Missiles do. They're just there, until they run out, due to a hit from a monster. Not Haste though, it'd be too powerful I guess. I wouldn't be sad to see it go anyway, if the new design took it into account in terms of balance.

I regularly play high AC dudes who use Charms, and I don't find it annoying to cast them when they run out. I do however find it bad to use all these disabling spells to accomplish something that a big stick and plate would do regardless. For example, I have no problem with skalds, who regularly need recasting of Spectral Weapon. And I try to learn Regeneration with all the dudes I play, and the best play is to cast it always when you're not at max HP, and often before a fight where one is bound to lose HP anyway.

[ontoclasm]

I used the example that in Lair, when the stoning monsters, forgetting about their names, don't do much to a high AC char, at least when they're the only baddies around.

Catoblepas? That's a bizarre example since all you have to do is step out of the gas. And supposing you choose not to do so, and get petrified... if you're at range, casting, it'll waste most of the time you're stoned walking closer instead of hitting you. I assume you don't mean basilisks since they're not dangerous to anyone on their own.

Also EV is a defence. And you can cast in armour. And having high HP doesn't affect casting at all. Casters don't have to be squishy, I don't know why you're insisting they do.

[Sar]

I think he meant basilisk. They rarely beat my MR but when they do, it can be unpleasant.

Edit: wow I am bad at reading posts. Well, yeah, basilisks are not really bad alone but theoretically they could be a part of some heard and well, mistakes lead to mistakes...

[advil]

Yes, I think a lot of people enjoy playing non-melee backgrounds. Actually I find the most "normal" melee backgrounds quite boring, and overall tend to prefer hybrid characters (book start or not). On almost any book start I heavily use the book, in addition to picking up an interesting weapon. It is probably true that the interface for casting could use some improvement, but, well, I come from a generation of roguelike players where anything crawl currently has is stratospherically better than what I learned to play various roguelikes with, even if it could be yet better. Even recasting ozo's isn't particularly bad once you have it in muscle memory.

[KoboldLord]

I routinely use conjurations-centric characters, and I don't find them especially micromanagey. Remember if you are playing on a PC, you have the ` button in the upper left of your keyboard, which is the tab button for magic. I don't know where Macs have their magic tab button, but I assume they have it somewhere because that would be an unfortunate oversight. I usually shoot things with magic and then run away, and it works for basically the whole game as long as I'm paying attention to situations before they get out of hand. I'm not going to run any speedrun awards doing this, but I don't care and I don't know why you would either. It's fun to kill monsters that can't hit back.

[dynast]

I consider way more enjoying a pure mage than a pure melee. You usually struggle a lot until you get your lv9s but once you do its sweet.

But hybrid still the way to go for me.

[Avigdore]

Not only do I prefer casters...I prefer Mummy Wizards to anything else. I've got another one set to win if CAO hadn't gone down

I prefer the escape potential of casters. I am more experienced with them, and I can tell better when I've gotten in too far over my head.

[Sprucery]

I enjoy all backgrounds.

One good thing about non-melee backgrounds is that you get banished far less often, because you kill the distortion-wielding monster before it gets a single hit on you.

(Of course you don't let anyone hit you with distortion even with melee backgrounds if you're cautious, but ranged attacks let you be less cautious, which makes the game more convenient.)

[bel]

Spellcasters have many advantages over melee (if you discount Trog). The main one is ranged attacks, right off the bat. As far as I can see, the armour restrictions are there to balance this. I don't find spellcasting any more micromanaging than melee, especially because there are certain monsters you don't want to melee if you can help it, so you use ranged in some form or the other (wands, evocables etc.) You can macro "/" to "za.", and play the same way if you want, or you can set up Tab to use spells as well.

Tm is a hard background, this has nothing to do with spell casting backgrounds being hard.

[Baldu3]

The main issue with using magic points to kill enemy is it not only largely increases turn count but most importantly largely increases real time played. I'd estimate that a 3 rune game on a tab character is roughly half as long in real time (and turn count) as a mostly conjurer character.

I do enjoy the magic playstyle (for tough guys, weaklings always get tabbed) though, I tend to learn lots of spells and use as many as I can, the variety makes the game fun for me. I learned to stop caring about my turn count a long time ago, but I don't play crawl as much now since the games take a bit too long for my current life.

[yesno]

i do

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

i do

Thank you for participating.

[yesno]

are you being sarcastic

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

are you being sarcastic

Why yes, yes I am. Thank you for noticing.

[yesno]

are you mad at me for liking to cast spells in this video game

[hannobal]

I play blaster backgrounds with automagic lvl 1 spells, so i can tab along as usual.
And yes it wastes turns, saves realtime and is quite fun (especially IE).

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

are you mad at me for liking to cast spells in this video game

No. Why would you think that?

[yesno]

because you didn't seem to appreciate my contribution to this great meeting of minds

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Well yesno, we started on a sarcastic foot. There's no return once you walk that road. So we both have to find a further sarcastic remark on each others' comments whether we like it or not. I decided to turn the tables around by asking a seemingly sincere question. But as we both know, we're keeping scores so I think I'm 1-0 here, and the ball is on your court to come up with a witty remark that puts you even.

[yesno]

i just like playing wizards in a video game, man. have a nice day

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I think you're reading too little into my comments here.