Always Getting rMut?

[GrumpD]

Dude Men,
Hello, good sirs. What about some sort of fixed vault, or fixed acquirement, that would allow a player wanting rMut (and maybe other things good for going past 3-rune) to reliably have it each game. I realize this flies in the face of the RNG-ruled style of things. But, from a noob perspective, missing something like that makes the game ALL about worrying over mutation (when I should be worried all about torment and smite, heh) really changes the feel.

Threats become uniformly less threatening once you can make a three rune ascension and opt against doing so, so it seems extended is really about mutations and torment, maybe smite as well.

Would knowing there's always an rMut in V:5 hurt the game aesthetic very badly? Could there be something like a Treasure Trove with a hefty price (say lots of blink scrolls or something else dear to most players) that always popped up in a difficult to reach pre-extended game area?

I have a feeling I'll be told that all these threats--rMut, smite, torment--can be reduced using the same essential strategies, like positioning, fog, etc. I don't disagree. It does seem though that the game gets boiled down to making most decisions with just these things in mind, and it's a much different experience.

So back to the question: does having fixed gear available every game change the nature of play too much?

[byrel]

Hmmm... It's been a while since I did much extended, but I don't remember mutations being my primary concern anywhere but slime, abyss and Z:5.

My last 3-runer (HOFi, diversifying into Evo), I didn't bother buying the rmut amulet in Orc because I just wasn't that concerned. I had 3 cure mut if I needed them, and just buffed and summoned a bunch when facing OoF, cacodemons, and neqoxecs.

[GrumpD]

Hmmm... It's been a while since I did much extended, but I don't remember mutations being my primary concern anywhere but slime, abyss and Z:5.

My last 3-runer (HOFi, diversifying into Evo), I didn't bother buying the rmut amulet in Orc because I just wasn't that concerned. I had 3 cure mut if I needed them, and just buffed and summoned a bunch when facing OoF, cacodemons, and neqoxecs.

Maybe that's the real answer: I'm just grumpy about thinking so much about this one threat and need to get on with it, use my consumables to hide from mutators, and that's that. They just unnerve me because there's this tiny chance that one turn can mean making your char into junk after a ton of invested time and effort.

[Sar]

Those are called Zin and Jiyva altars and they are already in the game.

[archaeo]

For what it's worth, relatively few mutations are completely character wrecking, while many of them can be outright ignored or easily alleviated with the right equipment.

I feel pretty confident saying that the devs will never "guarantee" an rMut amulet. From the last public objstat data I can find though, it seems like the average game will include at least one rMut amulet and a handful of Cure Mut potions. If you don't find any, though, and you get into real trouble, you just do what Sar says: Zin to Win (or, if DS, Jiyva for Victory).

[GrumpD]

Yes, Sar, yes, thank you for your willingness to paraphrase the wiki. I know it must be tiring to respond to the green folks, and still you're compelled for some reason to respond. That sounds like a "worship a god that takes the problem off the table" kind of answer, and I worked to explain I realized my options, but it can't hurt to be reminded there are ways to dismiss the problem outright. For my inquiry, your suggestion is satisfactory; it may not do much to answer the question of the usefulness or design implications of guaranteed items.

Edit: you'd suggest to a new player that a good option is waiting on a Jivya altar? That's maybe not a good suggestion, at least not for the inexperienced who may struggle with going godless or switching. It sounds like fodder for a wiki guide that you might undertake.

[GrumpD]

For what it's worth, relatively few mutations are completely character wrecking, while many of them can be outright ignored or easily alleviated with the right equipment.

I feel pretty confident saying that the devs will never "guarantee" an rMut amulet. From the last public objstat data I can find though, it seems like the average game will include at least one rMut amulet and a handful of Cure Mut potions. If you don't find any, though, and you get into real trouble, you just do what Sar says: Zin to Win (or, if DS, Jiyva for Victory).

Thank you for a thoughtful response. It so happens I'm in a game position where my god choice and drops lead me to wonder about the place of fixed drops. I suppose once I'm at 1k games or some other large number, I'll stop thinking of any one run as dear to me.

[byrel]

Thank you for a thoughtful response. It so happens I'm in a game position where my god choice and drops lead me to wonder about the place of fixed drops. I suppose once I'm at 1k games or some other large number, I'll stop thinking of any one run as dear to me.

Well... I don't think that's the issue here. I don't worry about malmutation if I can kill malmutaters decently fast. And the reason is simply I'm confident that I can handle it if I get bad muts. If I have trouble in zot:5 and run out of cure muts, I just go Jiyva. Seriously, on almost any character (I don't think I would with Veh...) It's just not a big deal to me. You get a reasonable god, a pile of free loot, and a rune to boot, with basically no downtime while you're experiencing god wrath without god piety.

I've never done Zin. I never really did much with the good gods, outside of a handful of TSO games.

[archaeo]

it can't hurt to be reminded there are ways to dismiss the problem outright.

Sar gave you two extremely good options for handling a lack of rMut that are available to every character except demigods. I wouldn't call that a dismissal.

Edit: you'd suggest to a new player that a good option is waiting on a Jivya altar? That's maybe not a good suggestion, at least not for the inexperienced who may struggle with going godless or switching. It sounds like fodder for a wiki guide that you might undertake.

I imagine Sar would join basically everyone in saying that, if you don't have rMut and you have 3 runes, there are a plethora of good options, including "just win the game," which is probably the best advice for someone who feels too inexperienced with switching gods.

Also, nobody needs to "wait" on Jiyva altar, for what it's worth; you can worship Ely or Fedhas and abandon either of them for Jiyva without any serious danger.

I suppose once I'm at 1k games or some other large number, I'll stop thinking of any one run as dear to me.

It's definitely better to approach any roguelike as being more about the journey than the destination, but there's not much we can do about getting invested in our characters.

[GrumpD]

it can't hurt to be reminded there are ways to dismiss the problem outright.

Sar gave you two extremely good options for handling a lack of rMut that are available to every character except demigods. I wouldn't call that a dismissal.

Extremely good options indeed, and I didn't deny that. My tone might have be indicative that I recognized a particular quality in his, though.

Edit: you'd suggest to a new player that a good option is waiting on a Jivya altar? That's maybe not a good suggestion, at least not for the inexperienced who may struggle with going godless or switching. It sounds like fodder for a wiki guide that you might undertake.

I imagine Sar would join basically everyone in saying that, if you don't have rMut and you have 3 runes, there are a plethora of good options, including "just win the game," which is probably the best advice for someone who feels too inexperienced with switching gods.

Thus my second comment. I think I'm in a place now where "just win" means "get ready to lose another thirty games before you get a guy going." I haven't played the game for years. I might not be playing in a month. So every character that's even remotely successful still feels very significant. I don't mean to point this out in a way that suggest you don't understand, everyone was new once, but I feel like a reminder for seasoned players never hurts.

Also, nobody needs to "wait" on Jiyva altar, for what it's worth; you can worship Ely or Fedhas and abandon either of them for Jiyva without any serious danger.

This is an interesting experiential option I didn't understand. Is the piety loss for conversion not seen as a detriment to the character in a more general way because there's lots of time to build piety still, or is it more with Jivya you're likely always in a position to build piety later than you might going with a god from temple?

I suppose once I'm at 1k games or some other large number, I'll stop thinking of any one run as dear to me.

It's definitely better to approach any roguelike as being more about the journey than the destination, but there's not much we can do about getting invested in our characters.

I read about video games more than I play them for this reason. For instance, I'm a big Dwarf Fortress fan, and the idea behind it is more compelling to me than its play experience, and I would say the same for Crawl; the concept is oddly fascinating, the ethos of its creation and maintenance, that it attracts a group of enthusiasts, etc. When I do play, it's always as a tourist, and (at least it feels like) as an outsider. Crawl and DF are the Cuba of international travel, in a way: they're not the typical destination, but you can visit if you do your homework. I'm traveling in this game at the present, and I'm trying to keep up with the homework it requires. So, as you say, the rougelike is more about the journey, and I'm romanticizing the destination.

[tabstorm]

There is no guaranteed amulet of rMut that I know of in the game, and I don't think any fixed vaults spawn one either. One wizlab may spawn a lot of cure mut potions, and enough should spawn in the game to cure the few relevant bad mutations that you may get in Zot:5 (teleportitis, no device heal, etc.). If you are doing extended and don't have resist mutation, you can always change to Zin or Jiyva.

[greedo]

While I'm against the idea of a guaranteed rMut, I wouldn't really call zin and jiyva a way of dealing with mutations if you don't find rMut. If god's wrath didn't exist or if they were actually balanced by taking out stupid effects like passing out or banishment, but not really otherwise.

[Sar]

Just take Ely as your first god.

[duvessa]

fedhas -> jiyva is also extremely safe and taking fedhas as your first god is optimal anyway

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

fedhas -> jiyva is also extremely safe and taking fedhas as your first god is optimal anyway

I've never taken Fedhas, as I feel like I'm losing potentially useful loot. Is that even a thing?

[archaeo]

I think you might be confusing Fedhas with Jiyva, the latter of whom is the god that can destroy your loot. You can use an ability to paralyze jellies in LOS to keep them from gobbling your loot though, and since most players switch to Jiyva sometime in the midgame, you're likely to already have plenty of stuff.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I think you might be confusing Fedhas with Jiyva, the latter of whom is the god that can destroy your loot. You can use an ability to paralyze jellies in LOS to keep them from gobbling your loot though, and since most players switch to Jiyva sometime in the midgame, you're likely to already have plenty of stuff.

Oops, you're right. Never followed either.

[zrn]

since most players switch to Jiyva sometime in the midgame

The way you phrased that made it sound like you were saying something you actually weren't. Language is weird.

[onget]

kiku is a guarantee necromutation, it will protect you from the mutation.

[byrel]

The thing is you mostly don't need to worry about rMut (you shouldn't be doing extended if any mutators aside from OoF are hard to deal with; they're generally much squishier than the real threats at that level), and if it turns out to be a problem, most characters can handle a god switch at some point in extended. Jiyva provides somewhat random, but useful benefits, and the ability to basically mutation roulette as much as you want. You get a pile of loot, and you usually already have all the loot you really need.

A lot of characters do a TSO switch anyhow; it's not hard to swap to Zin at that point, since some of your piety carries over, and Zin is trivial to build piety with lategame (gold's roughly worthless for non-Gozagites).

There's really only one God I probably wouldn't consider abandoning, and that's Vehumet. His wrath is absurd. If you're doing extended and are worshiping an anti-mutation god, you don't care about banishment. Chei and Dith are rough, as they can put you to sleep, but that just means being extra careful with luring. Ru is rough because your sacrifices are still gone; but you have no excuse for getting malmutated on Ru anyhow. You should have rested off your exh. Mahkleb can be somewhat dangerous, as you get a guaranteed hit with LCS occasionally. So you need to keep your HP up, and maybe not an option for low HP aptitude races. (Though Felids aren't the most popular mahkleb followers, I doubt I'd abandon him on them.) Ash wrath is potentially terrifying, so you'll probably want to burn it off in a relatively safe environment. Stair-dancing the hells seems fairly reasonable and straight-forward. You can probably burn some of it by waiting a bit on each Depths level for the random spawns that have accumulated, and you'll get Jiyva piety as the jellies nom the floor trash. If you REALLY are worried about it, go to V:5 or Z:5 and stair-scum random spawns for 15k turns or so.

I think saying that god-switching is a good general strategy for dealing with exceptionally bad luck or poor play in extended is quite reasonable. Once you have 6-7 runes, you can handle most god wrath's with a little caution and preparedness.

I'm not persuaded that this should be the case; a lot of god wrath is way too scummable. But this isn't the design forum, so whatever; it's still good advice for current crawl.

[daggaz]

I got into a brawl yesterday with 5 (five!) OoFs, as well as an assortment of dragons, cornhusk whatevers, orb guardians, and an ancient lich, in one of the lungs. Spammed a few Mahkleb greater demons, quaffed some pots and hasted myself and went to work. Even wearing an rMut amulet, I had 8 malmuts by the time that fight ended. I suppose I would have had a fair number more without the amulet, but as it was I had several cureMut pots by that point in the game, so whats the point anyways.

I used to be so afraid of getting mutated. Now I really dont care. Berserkitis and Teleportitis being the only two that are rather essential to be fixed ASAP. Most of the time you are better wearing that artefact amulet of Why-Dont-You-Just-Win-This-Game-Already-There-Cant-Be-Any-Better-Loot