How would you make Crawl harder, in a fun way?

[dpeg]

Dpeg: most of the un-fun things about crawl would be less un-fun if players dont have to do them over... And over... And over... Shortening the game will be good, in particular shortening the length of time the player spends dealing with any given set of surroundings, monsters, obstacles... Pacing is important in video games, particularly the speed with which a player is exposed to thematic+strategic novelty. Too fast is confusing, too slow is monotous. You want the player to feel like they hit a stride, then change things up before they can fully veg out and go autopilot.

8 level floors like lair are the straight opposite of this idea. The only reason players dont HATE lair is because you reach it when the game is still modestly difficult, there are still significant char building decisions to make, lack of consumables, plus the fact that lair is really well designed compared to some other branches (zot and pan with their ridiculous packs of same-y monsters none of which require significant strategy or thought to deal with)

I know. This is why I suggested cutting Hive in half some years ago. Lair used to be ten levels.

Yes, I understand you want more, and faster, cuts. But the game is being shortened, for almost every release since 0.5. Here's the list:

  Code:

0.5   Hive cut from 4 to 2 levels
0.6   Lair cut from 10 to 8 levels
0.8   Elf cut from 7 to 5 levels
0.10  remove Hive
0.11  Elf cut from 5 to 3 levels
0.12  Vaults cut from 8 to 5 levels
0.14  Dungeon of 27 levels shortened to 14 levels of Dungeon followed by 5 levels of Depths
0.15  Crypt cut from 5 to 3 levels
0.17  Shoals, Snake, Spider, Swamp cut from 5 to 4 levels each
0.18  Orc cut from 4 to 2 levels
0.19  Lair cut from 8 to 6 levels, Slime cut from 6 to 5 levels

[dpeg]

+1 to removing the big three wands - they suddenly make valuable resources near-infinite.

Remove all charms which you cast before a battle and they see you through it (Oz's Armour and Haste are the obvious ones) - or make them cause draining at an interesting level. They are unfun - recasting and waiting out contamination are both dull - as well as powerful. Unlike low level charms, which are situational and interesting (I'm thinking of Infusion, Song of Slaying).

More monsters who control the player's movement (like manticore, vault warden, thorn hunter) in clever ways I can't think of off the top of my head.

One stair per level.

Monsters wander more.

Monsters loiter near stairs.

Except for "one stair per level", this looks a lot like what I have in mind. In addition to "monster wander more", I would also like it if re-entering any level would not just re-place monsters (with emphasis to cluster them, potentially near stairs), but also if the game could disband monsters -- both for interface (no need to keep the blink frog that was cool on L:1 back then) but also to reduce xp (so you parked the L:1 hydras and come back when you're able to safely kill them: no hydra left). Uniques would be exempt, of course.

[Implojin]

Except for "one stair per level", this looks a lot like what I have in mind. In addition to "monster wander more", I would also like it if re-entering any level would not just re-place monsters (with emphasis to cluster them, potentially near stairs), but also if the game could disband monsters -- both for interface (no need to keep the blink frog that was cool on L:1 back then) but also to reduce xp (so you parked the L:1 hydras and come back when you're able to safely kill them: no hydra left). Uniques would be exempt, of course.

In my opinion, *selectively* despawning monsters fails to immediately and clearly communicate "You shouldn't have to come back here. Go somewhere else."

If you are going to introduce despawning, you should include uniques, to clearly communicate that the player will not gain anything by backtracking. Any despawn code that allows for *partial* floor despawns fails the same test. When whatever criteria you use for despawn are met for a floor, it should be fully despawned, to send a clear message.

You should also despawn items under the same conditions, otherwise there are issues with things like intentional vault guardian despawns. Items that have been stepped on by the player could potentially be excluded, to allow for oldcrawl stashes in case any players still do that.

[dpeg]

Despawning items is good, I like it.

For me, uniques are sacrosanct because they're tracked in Ctrl-O, and for flavour. Your buddy Sigmund will wait for you on D:2. I don't think much has to be announced. Look at it from the perspective of a new player (who is not aware of the current situation): she'll go back to levels and notice that monsters are not locked in place, and sometimes are missing altogether. She'll conclude this is normal. In my opinion, this would only be irritating for players who experience the rule change.

[VeryAngryFelid]

"Sorry, you are too high level. This floors is cleared of items and monsters"

[Implojin]

Despawning items is good, I like it.

For me, uniques are sacrosanct because they're tracked in Ctrl-O, and for flavour. Your buddy Sigmund will wait for you on D:2. I don't think much has to be announced. Look at it from the perspective of a new player (who is not aware of the current situation): she'll go back to levels and notice that monsters are not locked in place, and sometimes are missing altogether. She'll conclude this is normal. In my opinion, this would only be irritating for players who experience the rule change.

With respect to uniques, the ^O behaviour could be changed. Flavour is a good enough reason to prevent their despawn, but does their position need to be static on higher floors? This kind of thing is exactly the cause of the problems being discussed over in the "Don't give XP for easy and harmless monsters" thread.

These are Unique monsters. Their descriptions often flavour them as rival adventurers. They could move downward in the Dungeon as the player progresses and their floors despawn, if they aren't killed. (Possibly add earlier skipped uniques to the OOD/respawn monster pool?) This would bring the fight to the player, possibly at an inopportune time, rather than allowing the player to selectively leave behind uniques and go back at their leisure. Confusion stemming from existing ^O behaviour aside, the action of going back to find skipped uniques and stomp them isn't very interesting. It's certainly gratifying, allowing the player a sense that their character's power has grown, but tactically uninteresting. Moving those uniques to later floors is one potential solution that might allow for that gratification to remain, while cutting out some tedium and removing the message that it's sometimes important to backtrack.

Regarding the ^O behaviour, it could be updated to track when a unique has moved. ("<darkgrey>D:5 is empty,</darkgrey> <red>Dowan is chasing you down!</red>")

Something to think about, anyway.

[duvessa]

I see no reason to allow returning to the despawned level at all.

[Implojin]

I see no reason to allow returning to the despawned level at all.

Obviously, but this is easier for some people to swallow if we boil the frog.

There's also the minor problem of floor connectivity between branches if you start disallowing access to despawned floors. This could be fixed with a hub level ala Megaman, or an overall dungeon layout shift, or getting rid of interfloor travel time altogether and changing autotravel functionality to simply be similar to a wizmode floor teleport.