New class: Slime Knight

[radinms]

start at worshiper of Jiyva.

[archaeo]

two things:

1) Jiyva's entire deal is being difficult to easily worship.

2) Zealot backgrounds, which start with a god, are not highly favored; the devs have been removing them for several versions now.

FWIW, I think worshipping Jiyva from turn 1 also sounds like a nightmare; the stat shuffling and item destruction are both traits that are "interesting" in the midgame, but would be obnoxiously difficult in the early game.

[onget]

Jiyva by stupid worship difficulty is always the most difficult God. It is impossible to win using the jiyva without the use of a stupid play or very lucky.

[archaeo]

No, onget. I think Jiyva has some big design problems, but Slimify is one of the best god abilities in the game.

Really, a Jiyva game can be very consistently good. You can worship Ely or Fedhas, two of the best early-game gods, and leave them for Jiyva without any trouble. And then you can get a substantial portion of the Slime:6 loot, which can be an excellent help. I don't really like Jiyva, and I think it needs serious reform, but Slimify alone is worth the price of admission.

[onget]

How does powerful God that can not worship without guaranteed win?

[archaeo]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. Could you say it using different words?

Edited to add: If you find a Jiyva altar before Temple (or get the very rare Slime Temple), I think it's usually a bad choice. Starting the game with Ely or Fedhas and switching to Jiyva later is a much easier way to win, in my opinion.

[tabstorm]

I think I asked about this once and was told that it will absolutely never happen. I'm not sure exactly the reasoning because I didn't care that much, but it probably has something to do with a guaranteed rune in Lair and the power of Slimify.

[Mulzaro]

I think I asked about this once and was told that it will absolutely never happen. I'm not sure exactly the reasoning because I didn't care that much, but it probably has something to do with a guaranteed rune in Lair and the power of Slimify.

Talking about Slimify, does it give exp at all? LearnDB etc. don't say anything about that.

[Sandman25]

50% XP

[onget]

If the early to go to the slime pit, you will always death. If you go to jiyva late game, you're already win is guaranteed.

[archaeo]

Oh, now I see what you're saying. It's wrong, but I can understand it.

It depends on what you mean by "early." I've seen players dive for the altar on Slime:6 when they first found the branch a few times, and it's totally doable. Virtually any species can make it to the altar after a rune or two, though.

If "after a rune or two" counts as late game, so what? Lots of people seriously think the game is already won if they make to Lair. If you're among them, feel free to quit the game once you get to Lair:1.

Or, I guess, continue to complain on Tavern? That's also a valid strategy!

[Abominae]

50% XP

Has this changed recently? I could have sworn Slimify gave zero experience.

[prozacelf]

This idea comes up every few months it seems like, and it never goes anywhere. I think it's safe to assume that it's basically on the Will Not Do list.

[Sprucery]

For example, I proposed it 22 Sep 2014 and got promptly shot down by dpeg.

[onget]

How do you do a streak you can use the jiyva?
It is impossible. The only means is a worship jiyva before get the orb, it is not a win of jiyva.

Early slime pit is the risk of the random death and losing all consumables.

"after a rune or two jiyva" is useful in half game. And it is a easy half. jiyva is powerful only if you do not be able to get a third rune.

[dpeg]

I think Jiyva needs a change now that jellies don't slurp stuff you've seen. However, I don't think that kills the god outright, but I expect the basic premise of "with this god, you're losing out of items left right and center" to be gone. That can be fixed. From the thread I infer that there seem to be other broken bits about Jiyva -- what are they, in your opinion?

I believe that I've suggested a couple of times on ##crawl-dev to have a guaranteed J altar on Slime:2-3, but that was not universally liked. (The idea is that you can get your slime god worship with some effect, i.e. not just in Lair, but before Slime:$ -- I realise that this can also be seen as a counterpoint.)

Starting background with Jiyva is out of the question, as has already been said.

Finally, I really like the idea of gods that are not Temple stock. As has been pointed out, you can play a challenge game of no-god until Slime, or you think about what other god to worship until you do Slime (and then you can also think about when to do it)... These look like fun decisions to me.

[Sar]

I believe Jiyva's jellies still slurp things up, no? If they don't it seems like it's simple to just special-case them.

[duvessa]

I think Jiyva needs a change now that jellies don't slurp stuff you've seen. However, I don't think that kills the god outright, but I expect the basic premise of "with this god, you're losing out of items left right and center" to be gone. That can be fixed.

Jellies weren't changed for Jiyva worshippers, they eat items normally.

If "you lose out on items" was an intended part of Jiyva's design, then I have bad news for you: it was never really the case. Your character tends to reach items before jellies do.

[onget]

new god idea: god of zig
The altar only zig:27
Ability of all of God
This God is useful and great as jiyva for dpeg and fanatics!

[Sar]

this god also occasionally appears in the earlygame but you shouldn't take it because it's rare which means it's useless

[onget]

god of zig is Perhaps to death at random as xom, or it is very OP and boring.

Or lacks the increase piety, it always does nothing.

[Sar]

I don't get it.

[onget]

my "early jiyva" will mean that immediately go to the slime pit (and death in acid blobs)

[Sar]

I still don't get it. I tried reading it a couple of times. Nope, sorry.

[tasonir]

I think the logic goes something like "if you want to rush for jiyva, you have to go to slime:6 for an altar, which is dangerous". And then apply that to the zig:27 god, where to get your god you have to go all the way through a zig, which is clearly absurd.

In other words, what he meant by 'early jiyva' wasn't you found a jiyva altar on d:3 (lucky you) but that you tried to take a level 6 character into slime (not lucky you). Trying to 'early zig god' would be especially absurd, "for the lolz".