Zealot Backgrounds

[dynast]

I consider finding and choosing a god to ba a major aspect of this game and thus the player should not be able to start with one. So here are my proposals and justifications:

Berserker - instead of Trog, you start with a Amulet and a Potion of Rage. Considering how easy it is to stumble into a trog altar early on the game it shouldnt be a major change, maybe its also the reason why you were allowed to start with Trog in the first place just to save a bit of trouble.

Abyssal Knight - instead of Lugonu in the abyss, you start in the dungeon with a cursed distortion weapon and a scroll of teleportation. This setup seeks to prevent players from trying to abyss scum right at the start, but give them a toll to visit abyss later on(or at least try to).

Chaos Knight - instead of Xom, you start with a unidentified Wand of Random Effects.

[Sandman25]

That will be harder for new players, unlimited 0% failure chance berserk is great.

How can AK join Lugonu? AK is great for Banish early and Corrupt later, not so much for distortion weapon.

That's a serious buff to Xom. Wand of random effects makes it almost impossible to die to bored Xom, the god is always happy when you zap it at hostile monsters. I use scroll of ID on the wand with Xom.

[archaeo]

imo, the current zealots all have a cool place in Crawl right now. Be isn't a terribly balanced background, but it's genuinely fun and makes for a pretty cool "easy mode." The "abyss scum" thing you mention is a feature, not a bug, since it's a weird and interesting challenge mode, whereas CK is Xom, and Xom is love.

Maybe getting rid of all the zealot backgrounds would be better for "design purity" purposes, but I'd really mourn their loss, truth be told.

[Odds]

In general, I'm against zealots. They are a guaranteed god from turn 1; I think that removes a lot of interesting decisions around compromising between and early god and a good god. Particularly now a smaller proportion of temple gods have altars in the temple.

But all the current zealots are kind of OK, IMO:

- Berserker provides the easiest background for new players. It's powerful, and simple to play. I kind of like crawl having a "simple and easy" background.
- Chaos Knight provides a seriously tough background. Your god is doing crazy shit from turn 1. I don't enjoy them myself (maybe I will when I'm better at the game), but crawl having a "weird and hard" background is also fun.
- Abyssal Knight is the only route to early Lugonu. And I think he's a pretty interesting god, and the starting flavour is cool. I guess you could make him a temple god instead.

[Sandman25]

If Abyss start is a problem, you could change AK to start in Dungeon.

[onget]

Remove zealot is stupid. It is simply a more boring early game, it does not do anything other than additional inevitable death to random something or non-interesting boring choise of walk or die to a red name something.

[ydeve]

The devs went on a zealot purge awhile back, with most zealots removed because of the reasons in the OP. The remaining zealots are all there for a reason. Be for easy mode, CK for Xom challenge mode, AK for unique game style, as finding Lugonu in D is rare.

[onget]

Is not a game balance problems, it has been removed by an unknown reason(Perhaps because of a perfectionism).

[tasonir]

The remaining zealots are all there for a reason. [...] AK for unique game style, as finding Lugonu in D is rare.

This is why I want a Jiyva zealot. Slime knights please! It's way too hard to find Jiyva...

[archaeo]

Is not a game balance problems, it has been removed by an unknown reason(Perhaps because of a perfectionism).

It's not an unknown reason, it's just not a reason known to you. For example,

Remove the Healer background

With Pacify becoming available later and no longer being usable on every monster as a method to gain piety, it should hopefully be somewhat less gameplay-defining/warping, and so Healer doesn't make much sense as a background any more.

In other words, MPA is saying that when you start the game with a god, that god should make your game totally different. Trog, Xom, and Lucy do that; Ely, Zin, and Yred do not, so they were removed.

MPA can feel free to correct me if I've misstated his opinion, and likewise, if a passing dev thinks I'm off base, do let me know.

[onget]

The reason to remove a zealot is only perfectionism.

Almost all of the background is the same.
inevitable death to random something and non-interesting boring choise of walk or die to a red name something and spam a poison needle in all of nasty things.

And, because the background affects the late game is contrary to the perfectionism, all of the background can not be different.

[dynast]

imo, the current zealots all have a cool place in Crawl right now. Be isn't a terribly balanced background, but it's genuinely fun and makes for a pretty cool "easy mode." The "abyss scum" thing you mention is a feature, not a bug, since it's a weird and interesting challenge mode, whereas CK is Xom, and Xom is love.

Maybe getting rid of all the zealot backgrounds would be better for "design purity" purposes, but I'd really mourn their loss, truth be told.

I Did not say it was a bug, and the purpose is to prevent players from abyss scumming since turn 1 to lugonu start scum, which would end up as a better option to just let they start with lugonu.

Im ok with Be keeping Trog since a single potion of rage is enough to get you to his altar anyway.

Im not ok with players being able to start with lugonu since he is supposed to be a rare god, just like jiyva, who protects a rune, just like jiyva. This is just personal rant since i never bother worshipping him as making a lugonu run relies on starting as AK or getting "lucky".

Im indifferent to Xom. Some people switch to Zin, other plays for fun, none of that appeals to me. My fun is to find his altar and starting with him and a chaos weapon just feels too cheap.

[dynast]

The reason to remove a zealot is only perfectionism.

Almost all of the background is the same.
inevitable death to random something and non-interesting boring choise of walk or die to a red name something and spam a poison needle in all of nasty things.

And, because the background affects the late game is contrary to the perfectionism, all of the background can not be different.

You have been ranting about this "perfectionism" shit for a while and im getting tired of it.

Im not sure if you are having trouble to get your ideas across the board but atm you havent raised any valid points about it to sustain your claim.

Inevitable deaths can happen to any background, thats why they are called that way.

If you dont like stairdancing or using needles dont do those things, they are unrelated to this topic as far as i am concerned.

Backgrounds does not affect the late game, quite the contrary, they are just starting points that affects the early game.

[onget]

advantage that does not have a zealot There is no other than the perfectionism of the devs.
If you have hated it, but does not choise it. Background that you did not choose to do nothing.
Since the devs are in need of only fanatics player, do not need to think about the beginner.
Since the fanatics are familiar with all of the background, 24 background and 100 background is the same, do not need to remove.

[Sar]

my favourite crazy idea about gods in Crawl is to make Temple gods not-guaranteed

some game you don't get Oka, some game you don't get Veh and Trog, learn 2 diversify you turnip

will probably never be implemented though

[onget]

It is as long as you do not have the impossible early game or streak, it is additional quit and the early game.

[Sar]

sadly most crawl players have that mentality towards gods yeah

entitled little turnips

[onget]

Convert character by the lack of altar, because faith is insufficient, will penance is imposed.