I don't agree these claims

[radinms]

I don't agree these claims.
For me, even "Mummy is almighty and strong", seems better than that claims below.

- Shield is useless and garbage.
- Necromutation should be Lv7, Statue Form should be Lv5.
- Eternal torment crown was a weak item.
- Dragon Form is strong, while Statue Form is terrible weak.
- Reaching of polearms is better effect of cleaving of axe.
- All races that include "Elf" in their name is weak and terrible, while Tengu is powerful.
- if the highest skill in magic is spellcasting, you are always wrong.
- Chei is a terrible weak god. Even no god is better.
- Formicid is a hard race.
- the combination of Fomicid Chei is worst Formicid, and worst Chei.

[mps]

I like sorting things...

Agree with these:

- Shield is useless and garbage.
- Necromutation should be Lv7, Statue Form should be Lv5. [in fact, these are just two of the spells whose level should go down...]
- if the highest skill in magic is spellcasting, you are always wrong.
- Eternal torment crown was a weak item.

Disagree with these:

- Dragon Form is strong, while Statue Form is terrible weak.
- Reaching of polearms is better effect of cleaving of axe.
- All races that include "Elf" in their name is weak and terrible, while Tengu is powerful. [high elves are not worse than tengus, but tengus aren't that bad either]
- Formicid is a hard race.
- the combination of Fomicid Chei is worst Formicid, and worst Chei.

On fence about:

- Chei is a terrible weak god. Even no god is better.

[duvessa]

- if the highest skill in magic is spellcasting, you are always wrong.
- the combination of Fomicid Chei is worst Formicid, and worst Chei.

i am pretty sure nobody has ever said either of these except for you

[ZipZipskins]

"Here, let me invent half a list and take the other half out of context!"

[duvessa]

"Here, let me invent half a list and take the other half out of context!"

why not? it works for cracked.com

[ZipZipskins]

zzzzzzzzzzzzZING

[radinms]

duvessa, what are you watching?

mps agreed with "spellcasting is highest, you are wrong".

And Magipi wrote same thing at that forum:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17282

[Berder]

Spriggan blaster mages should get huge amounts of spellcasting, to reduce hunger costs and as a substitute for conj/elemental.

[tabstorm]

Let's compare the following combos: FoFi, HEFi - as a way of understanding different ways in which you can call things in this game good or bad.

You would probably say something like - "Of course, FoFi is better. FoFi is extremely resilient once it finds a shield, and can still use a 2h weapon, and has good aptitudes and normal HP." Now, let's say that in 99 out of 100 games, this is true, but in one game, you die in the mid-game due to -tele through no fault of your own. Someone might then say - "Well, assuming both characters were played optimally, the HEFi would not die in that game, and wouldn't have died in the other 99 (because it was played optimally)." So HEFi is a better combo, even though it's not nearly as resilient as FoFi.

Basically, FoFi is fairly mistake-resistant. This makes it a decent combo (imo). However, a lot of people think Fo is the 3rd or 2nd worst race in the game. This is because occasionally you will die without making a mistake due to -Tele.

Usually on here, things like races and gods are evaluated in terms of their contribution to the chance of unavoidable death - it's assumed that the rest of the game is played flawlessly. This is how you get people saying things like "Gr is a mid-tier race" occasionally. However, once you are past the early floors, Gargoyles are very mistake-resistant, which is why other people think of them as one of the best/easiest races. Usually implicit in the "unavoidable-death" evaluation system is the idea that after early D, the rest of the game is nearly trivial, so all that matters is in evaluating e.g. races and gods is how good they are on those floors.

[WalkerBoh]

Dropped a streak on D:1 with a GrIe recently, MuIE would've survived. Can confirm Mu > Gr.

[Berder]

  Code:

<halberd> !lg . gr / won
<Sequell> 4/9 games for halberd (gr): N=4/9 (44.44%)
<halberd> !lg . mu / won
<Sequell> 4/5 games for halberd (mu): N=4/5 (80.00%)

[radinms]

That's why mummy is a strong race.

[Sandman25]

Check Sandman25, there is no functional difference between Mu and Gr

[radinms]

I admit hypothetical optimal players will win HEFi 100%, but win FoFi 99%.
But actually that players exist??

At least, I am not a hypothetical optimal player.
Maybe, I can win FoFi 60%, but I can win HEFi only 40%.
[for me, early game is most difficult part of DCSS.
early game, FoFi is strong compared to HEFi because of few teleport or blink scrolls.]
So for me, Fo is a relatively easy race.

[duvessa]

I mean, fo isn't anywhere near as bad as Na or Mu imo. But lack of haste is really awful all game, and lack of tele/blink is pretty bad early game, and the usefulness of Fo digging on d:1-2 is not nearly enough to make up for it imo.

[radinms]

I don't get enough tele or blink scrolls at D:1-2.

[tabstorm]

I admit hypothetical optimal players will win HEFi 100%, but win FoFi 99%.
But actually that players exist??

At least, I am not a hypothetical optimal player.
Maybe, I can win FoFi 60%, but I can win HEFi only 40%.
[for me, early game is most difficult part of DCSS.
early game, FoFi is strong compared to HEFi because of few teleport or blink scrolls.]
So for me, Fo is a relatively easy race.

No one seriously tries to play "optimally" because the game wouldn't be fun then. You'd spend most of your time luring enemies to safe zones. So imo it's sort of pointless to use "optimal play" for anything but an excuse to remove unpleasant features like item destruction.

[Sar]

@tabstorm: I'm not sure I can call Fo "mistake-resistant" when being one takes away most of your generic mistake-erasers.

[Magipi]

mps agreed with "spellcasting is highest, you are wrong".

And Magipi wrote same thing at that forum:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17282

I wrote it only as a rule of thumb, so I guess there might be some exceptions - although honestly I cannot think of any. Please help.

[Magipi]

Let's compare the following combos: FoFi, HEFi (...)

So FoFi is comparable to HEFi, one of the weakest melee combos in the game. I do not see how this line of reasoning will ever lead to the conclusion that FoFi is strong.
Especially if you compare it to the really strong melee combos, the berserkers. FoBe is one of the weakest (no berserk). And comparing FoFi to any decent berserker is a joke.
I cannot see how Fo can be anything but one of the worst classes. Not as bad as mummy, OK. But still bad.

[radinms]

Fo is one of the strongest species, I believe.
Fo is weak? Crazy, It's a bad joke that confuses newbie.

[Sandman25]

I would have spellcasting as highest skill with caster Sp of Ash.
FoFi is good because it starts with normal shield and Fo uses it more efficiently than most species do. With other species I usually take off the shield around D4 or so, with Fo it can be on forever.

[dynast]

People who want necro/statue form spell level reduced should just stop being shy and just say they want the game to be even more easier.

[radinms]

So, maybe a lot of excellent players want more easy game lol

[Sandman25]

So, maybe a lot of excellent players want more easy game lol

Does it surprise you? One of the most often used objections to some ideas is something like "it will make tabbing harder".

[gammafunk]

It's funny to bring up "confusing newbies" when I'm pretty sure telling them to play Fo or Chei will surely get them killed more than anything will. No amount of insisting is going to change the mind of most experience players to think that a species without haste or any forms teleport is "in fact among the strongest". The bit about Fo being "mistake resistant" is true for certain kinds of mistakes, but not for others. I think people who actually think Fo and Chei are strong just tend to not care about the kinds of deaths that using those things lead to, especially in the earlier game but also later on ("oh it was a weak character anyways, I didn't like it, but it's not Chei's fault lol").

With extremely careful play that increased risk from using Fo and Chei them might indeed be marginal compared to other options, but the people recommending those things don't play that way in practice. They tend to be favored among those with a relatively high-risk playstyle, that especially values things that make the game feel faster either subjectively or in realtime/turns.

[Sandman25]

It's funny to bring up "confusing newbies" when I'm pretty sure telling them to play Fo or Chei will surely get them killed more than anything will. No amount of insisting is going to change the mind of most experience players to think that a species without haste or any forms teleport is "in fact among the strongest". The bit about Fo being "mistake resistant" is true for certain kinds of mistakes, but not for others. I think people who actually think Fo and Chei are strong just tend to not care about the kinds of deaths that using those things lead to, especially in the earlier game but also later on ("oh it was a weak character anyways, I didn't like it, but it's not Chei's fault lol").

There is a very important difference between new players and experienced ones. New players don't have experience to estimate danger, that's why they will die without teleport, also they are inexperienced with Chei. But it does not apply to experienced players. For example, I got Fo of Chei into extended in a single try when I was going to win with 15 runes (the same with Fo of Lugonu and Fo of Vehumet by the way, thanks to lessons learned with Mu of Chei and Fo of other gods). Fo has good defense and Fo of Chei has excellent defense and cool panic buttons, 3 of them allow to handle every possible situation.

[duvessa]

Every time someone says that X species/background/god/spell/whatever is bad, someone comes along to say "nuh-uh, it isn't bad, because you can still win with it." Of course you can still win with it! Crawl has been won by a Lua script, by humans in less than an hour, in fewer than 10000 turns, and with a character that only killed one monster. When someone tells you Mu is bad, they're not trying to say that you can't win with it, or that it's difficult to win with it. They're just saying that it's worse than other options available.

[nago]

, and with a character that only killed one monster.[url][/url][/i].

Is that real? The top 1 of pacific win on akrasiac is 341 kills, is that wrong?

[radinms]

People who dislike Fo tend to not think early game.
early game has too many YASD.
Teleport? Blink? Haste? --you can't. at early game, you can't get enough these item. this is my point.

That's why I like Fo and feel easy.
That's why I like troll and dislike ogre.
That's why I like ds and dislike naga.

[Sandman25]

Every time someone says that X species/background/god/spell/whatever is bad, someone comes along to say "nuh-uh, it isn't bad, because you can still win with it." Of course you can still win with it! Crawl has been won by a Lua script, by humans in less than an hour, in fewer than 10000 turns, and with a character that only killed one monster. When someone tells you Mu is bad, they're not trying to say that you can't win with it, or that it's difficult to win with it. They're just saying that it's worse than other options available.

To be clear I rate Fo above Hu, both as melee (+1 Fighting, 15 Shields for large shield + 2h weapon, +1 Armour, kill hole, monster detection) and as caster (+10% MP, +3 Poison, +2 Earth, +2 Hexes, shield again), +4 MR per level. I barely teleport with any characters nowadays, escaping by running is usually enough with careful play.

[duvessa]

, and with a character that only killed one monster.[url][/url][/i].

Is that real? The top 1 of pacific win on akrasiac is 341 kills, is that wrong?

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/by/morgue-by-20090919-165918.txt

[Sar]

That's why I like ds

You think Ds has good earlygame?

[radinms]

Ds is shit in early game but still better than Naga.
Because Ds can walk in one turn.
generally Na can't walk in one turn, so early game is shitshitshitshit.
if construction since Lv1 or all stats+15 since Lv1... I love Naga. But the fact is...not.

IMO the concept of Naga is not great, because people who overvalue late-game suviability drastically reduce their early-game suviability.

People say Naga is suited for Mega-Zig, but I saw the record DE mega-Zig 14completed in 0.17.
So I avoid playing Naga because I think characters that sacrifice early-game suviability for late-game suviability are not fun.

[Sar]

I think Naga earlygame is a fun challenge (which is why I won about 30 of them).

[onget]

To focus on the early game is absolutely right choice, to sacrifice the early game is absolutely stupid choice, Na is a stupid choice.

[mps]

Many/most species are more like a game mode than a strategic choice, imo. If you're playing a naga, I generally assume it's not because you think it's a smart choice.

[Sar]

Besides, I never claimed to be smart!

[Sandman25]

To focus on the early game is absolutely right choice, to sacrifice the early game is absolutely stupid choice, Na is a stupid choice.

There is no such thing as stupid choice in a game without explicit difficulty levels.

[dowan]

Yeah, there are only good and bad choices once you've defined the goal. If the goal is to not die, the good choice is to not play crawl. If the goal is to win, the good choice is to play a MiBe or something like that. If the goal is to win with a naga, playing a naga is a good choice. It's very tough to win with a naga if you don't choose naga.

I assume onget's goal must be to have the best possible win% from the way he talks, but then I suspect he doesn't just play MiBe's either. It seems like the assumed goal is that players want the most impressive score page possible.

[dynast]

Ranged Fo best Fo. FoAm is the safest combo on the game, at least for people who knows wtf they are doing, but who knows wtf theyre doing in this f***ing game!?

[dynast]

to sacrifice the early game is absolutely stupid choice

I agree, i mean, how many *s Ru gives you for that?

[Sandman25]

It seems like the assumed goal is that players want the most impressive score page possible.

But then Na (or Mu of Chei ) is a good choice. I doubt many players would be impressed with MiBe wins and alike (unless it is extremely long streak like one by Tedronai and then his streak included Na, Mu, Op, Fe etc. which are not easy even as Be).

[onget]

to sacrifice the early game is absolutely stupid choice

I agree, i mean, how many *s Ru gives you for that?

Ru is because it does not do anything in pre-temple(and until you get enough piety), it is one of the worst of God in early game.

non-trog god is nothing in the early game. In other words, you do not absolutely able to get a piety by sacrificing the early game.

[duvessa]

What do we even need Cerekov for

[Cerekov]

That's a roguelike from experience in the great demonstration of the low success if you don't understand the single spell power imho currently the ideal case. And what's wrong school?

Water/lava tiles are the least piety? Those should be.

This is really starting skill whatsoever, and easy to read, I love caster-blasters, as an amazing items that wizard parties as other problems started writing style.

royal jelly is that what makes black mambas

[Cerekov]

If you're playing a "best" god for me now, Tavern? Caster with heavy armor until you don't think of the bigger issue isn't terribly huge amount of destruction! So an early game is not a stabber. Anyway there's a lot of conjurations. You might be hungry. I usually go through morgues though I just saying that issue.

[Sar]

royal jelly is that what makes black mambas

at last I truly see

[ZipZipskins]

a see-sar