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Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 17:37
by pubby
I'd much rather see magical staves melee attacks be changed than introduce some weird level 0 nonsense. Right now their power is dependent on three skills: magic, evocations, and staves, when really it should only be based on magic.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 17:44
by duvessa
I think it's ok for staves to use the staves skill but yeah the evocations part is dumb in practice.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 17:46
by Igxfl
The variety of skills seems like its just put in there to balance out the potentially massive damage.
Weakening them a bit and dropping either Staves or Evoc might be good.
I liked the idea of adding a weak, common tier of magic staves as an alternative to the melee proposal.
It'd be floor loot dependent, so a little more in line with Crawl's current design.
Current enchancer staves are generally late and rare enough that they don't consistently fill an equivalent roll though.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 18:08
by dowan
There isn't potentially massive damage, there's potentially ok damage.
duvessa wrote:dowan wrote:EDIT: Oh, I missed this
Duvessa wrote:I don't think the MP mechanic really does much after the first few dungeon levels.
Alright, nice trolling, you got me...
I'm not trolling. Is my claim really that outlandish?
Your claim that MP doesn't do anything after the first few dungeon levels? Yes, that's pretty wildly outlandish. In my experience, MP matters throughout the entire 15 rune game, if you're relying on damage dealing spells to kill dangerous enemies.
duvessa wrote:dowan wrote:UC doesn't make all the melee weapon skills useless, I don't see how scaling level 1 spells differently, in an effort to make them kinda like a weaker version of UC, makes anything else useless.
Berder wrote:Here's an alternate suggestion to the level 0 spells: make the level 1 damage spells scale up in a manner that makes them deal damage similar to a melee attack with a similar skill level.
Ah, ok. I guess I missed that, I was going off this:
Berder wrote:To clarify: the formulas are based on doing a bit less damage than the equivalent skill of Unarmed Combat would do. Flame Strike with 15 skill of Fire Magic, against an enemy that's not fire resistant, would do damage comparable to 12 skill of Unarmed Combat.
The goal is: the level 0 spells should be strong enough to use throughout the game against many sorts of enemies, so that mages would have a reason to rely on them and not be compelled to get and train a melee weapon. But the level 0 spells should be weak enough that a dedicated melee character at the same XL would be doing more melee damage, since that's their niche.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 19:08
by bcadren
What if staff damage (and proc rate) relied on spellpower like a normal spell instead of Staves, Magic, Evocations? Minor caster buff in the process?
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 19:24
by Hurkyl
bcadren wrote:What if staff damage (and proc rate) relied on spellpower like a normal spell instead of Staves, Magic, Evocations? Minor caster buff in the process?
It would be confusing (what spell?). Also, the way spellpower scales, it would either be an incredible buff to the early game staff damage, or an incredible nerf to late game staff damage.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 19:44
by Lasty
This proposal actively goes against the design choices crawl is based on: that all characters may want to pick up some of any skill, and that choosing to train one skill is a tradeoff against the other skills. Having characters silo themselves heavily is not a design goal of crawl, and proposals made with the goal of increasing siloing will receive no traction.
That said, if we wanted to buff book backgrounds by giving them a better attack to use when they have no mana, we'd give them +0 daggers or clubs to start out rather than inventing a large number of free new non-conjuration conjurations that turn magic skills into weapons skills.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 19:48
by dowan
Maybe it would work as a god though. Gods are allowed to do whatever they want to crawl's design choices. And I think an easy mode magic god would add a fun playstyle for those inclined to do so, just as trog offers an easy mode melee playstyle, and happily locks the player out of over 50% of the game's skills.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 20:04
by bcadren
Hurkyl wrote:It would be confusing (what spell?). Also, the way spellpower scales, it would either be an incredible buff to the early game staff damage, or an incredible nerf to late game staff damage.
Well any pure ice spell will show current ice spellpower; though you could just list it on the I and Z screens, Staff Damage - Spellpower (#) - Miscast rate (Proc Chance). Have no letter next to it, because you can't actually cast it from that menu; but it's fine to put there.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 20:07
by duvessa
dowan wrote:Gods are allowed to do whatever they want to crawl's design choices.
why
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 20:28
by dowan
Why? I don't know, I didn't come up with the design philosophy. Gods are the ones who get to change the usual rules of the game. So if one wants to be able to do something that isn't really allowed by the rules of the game, one should either change the rules, or come up with a god for it.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 20:31
by nago
duvessa wrote:dowan wrote:Gods are allowed to do whatever they want to crawl's design choices.
why
Gozag
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 21:49
by Berder
Lasty wrote:This proposal actively goes against the design choices crawl is based on: that all characters may want to pick up some of any skill, and that choosing to train one skill is a tradeoff against the other skills. Having characters silo themselves heavily is not a design goal of crawl, and proposals made with the goal of increasing siloing will receive no traction.
Let's get this straight. "Siloing," I gather from context, means characters that develop along substantially different skill paths from other characters, in this case having characters that only train magic and don't use a weapon, unlike other characters that use weapons. If you try to eliminate "siloing" then by definition you're making characters more similar to each other! This decreases the replay value of the game.
"Siloing" is a good thing. I want to be able to play many different "silos" of meaningfully distinct characters. I don't want to play the same type of character every game. Playing new characters is interesting, playing characters I've basically played before is boring.
By the way, I don't see any mention of "siloing" in the Philosophy section of the Crawl manual.
However I do see this as a minor design goal:
Crawl Philosophy wrote:replayability (using branches, species, playing styles and gods)
So enabling different playing styles is in line with Crawl philosophy, and your theory about "avoiding silos" is not!
Lasty wrote:That said, if we wanted to buff book backgrounds by giving them a better attack to use when they have no mana, we'd give them +0 daggers or clubs to start out rather than inventing a large number of free new non-conjuration conjurations that turn magic skills into weapons skills.
This is completely missing the point. The issue is mages in lair branches, vaults, depths, or zot, that usually have to branch into melee skills to be competitive and become more of a fighter. I see no problem for mages on D:1 currently.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 21:57
by Berder
pubby wrote:I'd much rather see magical staves melee attacks be changed than introduce some weird level 0 nonsense. Right now their power is dependent on three skills: magic, evocations, and staves, when really it should only be based on magic.
This is a good idea, but it would only work if the mage in question finds a magical staff of the appropriate type fast enough. If an AE doesn't find a staff of air until Swamp:1, that's probably too late because he needs (or could benefit from) a melee attack before then. So this idea would only solve the problem if magical staves were substantially more common, or if they were starting weapons, except that would require some rebalancing to prevent them from being too powerful.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 22:40
by duvessa
dowan wrote:Why? I don't know, I didn't come up with the design philosophy.
The design philosophy doesn't say anything about gods being allowed to ignore it, even if some of them do in practice.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 23:35
by archaeo
dowan wrote:Your claim that MP doesn't do anything after the first few dungeon levels? Yes, that's pretty wildly outlandish. In my experience, MP matters throughout the entire 15 rune game, if you're relying on damage dealing spells to kill dangerous enemies.
I can't speak for duvessa, but I would agree with the idea that for the most part, good play means that you'll be running out of MP in dangerous situations very rarely after the early dungeon. Magic is usually good enough that you can win any battle and then rest up to full MP before encountering the next battle, especially if you play with care and take advantage of spells.
Berder wrote:Let's get this straight. "Siloing," I gather from context, means characters that develop along substantially different skill paths from other characters, in this case having characters that only train magic and don't use a weapon, unlike other characters that use weapons. If you try to eliminate "siloing" then by definition you're making characters more similar to each other! This decreases the replay value of the game.
I think you might be missing Lasty's point, though I also can't speak for him. The goal of avoiding "siloing" isn't to make characters similar to each other, but to prevent a game in which all of a player's important choices are made during character creation. Crawl is meant to be a game where players make strategic choices based on the resources they find in the dungeon and their character's aptitudes, and mechanics that remove those choices have to create other interesting choices or player reactions elsewhere. "Siloing" would involve mechanics that remove a player's agency by eliminating those strategic choices.
Your change would mostly serve to make every "caster" of the same background play the same. There's no incentive to branch out to a good weapon or other things that might pop up, as you have a Level 0 spell quasi-weapon and an ever-growing investment in your spell school. It shuts down player choice in order to protect a "playstyle" that already has pretty wide support in the game. I think that's the kind of "silo" he's talking about.
By the way, I don't see any mention of "siloing" in the Philosophy section of the Crawl manual.
It's not the Crawl Constitution; I think Lasty is pretty accurately describing the dev consensus on this kind of thing.
The issue is mages in lair branches, vaults, depths, or zot, that usually have to branch into melee skills to be competitive and become more of a fighter. I see no problem for mages on D:1 currently.
You know, all that said, I'm still not totally sure I understand this meme. I've won several characters that did the vast majority of their damage via spells (including my first win!), and I don't think it's a terribly difficult way to play. It may not be as strictly "optimal" as a melee build, but Crawl doesn't demand optimal play at all, even for relatively high winrates.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Friday, 31st July 2015, 23:45
by duvessa
I mean even if you think spells are somehow the worst thing ever, it's pretty silly to say training melee skills is optimal when throwing and launchers exist in their current state...
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Saturday, 1st August 2015, 01:32
by WingedEspeon
dowan wrote:duvessa wrote:[quote="dowan"
What characters do you think shouldn't train a melee weapon?
characters that are better at killing monsters using things that aren't melee weapons, such as throwing, launchers, conjurations
So you would advise a player playing a hunter, AM, or conjurer to not train any melee skill? (assuming they didn't find some really awesome melee weapon early on of course)[/quote]
I tried this with KoAM. The character is in vaults and feeling quite strong aside from the bad HP form a -2 HP apt.
(actualy, the conduct was harder than now melee skill training:the character has never melee attacked.)
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 18:15
by Berder
I would advise nearly any mage to get some form of physical attack, whether it's melee or ranged. Otherwise you end up like my current character:
- Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.17-a0-1625-g47e540b (webtiles) character file.
hyperborean the Spry (Felid Wanderer) Turns: 117741, Time: 09:04:33
Health: 118/118 AC: 3 Str: 6 XL: 25 Next: 28%
Magic: 27/47 EV: 36 Int: 24 God: Vehumet [******]
Gold: 1223 SH: 0 Dex: 19 Spells: 16 memorised, 1 level left
Lives: 2 Deaths: 0
rFire + . . SeeInvis + a - 243 stones
rCold + . . Clarity . (armour unavailable)
rNeg . . . SustAt . (shield unavailable)
rPois + Gourm . (helmet unavailable)
rElec + Spirit . (cloak unavailable)
rCorr . Warding . (gloves unavailable)
rMut + Stasis . (boots unavailable)
MR +++.. n - amulet of resist mutation
Stlth +++++++... f - ring of protection from fire
T - ring of Incredulity {+Blink rElec rPois Stlth+}
@: repel missiles, quick, extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
stealthy
A: no armour, no weapons or thrown items, claws 1, fangs 3, horns 1, see
invisible, breathe flames 1, carnivore 3, speed 1, shaggy fur 3, slow metabolism
1, sharp paws
a: Renounce Religion, Breathe Fire, Evoke Blink
}: 3/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled, abyssal
You are on level 4 of the Realm of Zot.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.
You have visited 9 branches of the dungeon, and seen 51 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 3 times.
You have visited 1 bazaar.
You have also visited: Ice Cave.
You have collected 7667 gold pieces.
You have spent 6444 gold pieces at shops.
Inventory:
Missiles
a - 243 stones (in mouth)
Jewellery
b - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
f - a ring of protection from fire (right paw)
h - an uncursed ring of positive energy
n - an amulet of resist mutation (around neck)
x - the ring "Coellioku" {SustAt rC+ Int+4}
(You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Snake Pit)
[ring of sustain attributes]
It sustains your strength, intelligence and dexterity.
It affects your intelligence (+4).
It protects you from cold.
L - an uncursed ring of teleportation
P - an uncursed amulet of warding
Q - an uncursed amulet of regeneration
R - an uncursed ring of fire
T - the ring of Incredulity (left paw) {+Blink rElec rPois Stlth+}
(You took it off a deep elf conjurer on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
[ring of poison resistance]
It insulates you from electricity.
It protects you from poison.
It lets you blink.
It makes you more stealthy.
V - the ring of Ashenzari's Esteem {rC++ rN+ Dex+5}
(You took it off an orc on level 4 of the Vaults)
[ring of dexterity]
It affects your dexterity (+5).
It greatly protects you from cold.
It protects you from negative energy.
Magical devices
j - a wand of teleportation
p - a wand of hasting (2)
u - a wand of cold
v - a wand of digging (21)
B - a wand of invisibility (8)
G - a wand of draining
S - a wand of disintegration (15)
W - a wand of teleportation (5)
Scrolls
e - 10 scrolls of fog
m - a scroll of vulnerability
q - 21 scrolls of remove curse
r - 8 scrolls of recharging
y - 2 scrolls of holy word
E - 3 scrolls of summoning
F - 4 scrolls of fear
H - 2 scrolls of magic mapping
O - 6 scrolls of identify
Y - a scroll of silence
Potions
i - 12 potions of brilliance
k - 8 potions of agility
o - 4 potions of flight
s - 2 potions of haste
w - 8 potions of magic
I - 3 potions of curing
K - a potion of invisibility
M - 4 potions of cancellation
U - 3 potions of heal wounds
Z - 3 potions of resistance
Miscellaneous
c - a box of beasts {used: 9}
z - a box of beasts
C - a sack of spiders {used: 5}
D - a phial of floods
J - a sack of spiders
N - a lamp of fire
Comestibles
d - 23 meat rations
g - 10 slices of pizza
l - a royal jelly
A - 13 beef jerkies
Skills:
+ Level 16.3 Fighting
+ Level 20.6 Dodging
- Level 11.6 Stealth
- Level 1.6 Unarmed Combat
- Level 19.2 Spellcasting
- Level 17.5 Conjurations
Level 3.7 Hexes
Level 0.8 Summonings
- Level 14.5 Translocations
Level 7.6 Fire Magic
- Level 8.5 Ice Magic
- Level 7.2 Air Magic
- Level 15.6 Earth Magic
- Level 7.4 Poison Magic
- Level 13.8 Evocations
You have one spell level left.
You know the following spells:
Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger
a - Sandblast Erth ###### 0% 1 None
b - Blink Tloc N/A 0% 2 None
c - Passage of Golubria Tloc N/A 1% 4 None
d - Freezing Cloud Conj/Ice/Air ######.... 1% 6 ###....
e - Poison Arrow Conj/Pois ######.... 1% 6 ###....
f - Passwall Trmt/Erth ######.... 1% 3 None
g - Stoneskin Trmt/Erth ######.. 1% 2 None
h - Lee's Rapid Deconstr Erth #######... 1% 5 None
i - Controlled Blink Tloc N/A 6% 7 #####..
j - Orb of Destruction Conj #######... 1% 7 #####..
k - Swiftness Chrm/Air #####... 1% 2 None
l - Shroud of Golubria Chrm/Tloc ######.... 1% 2 None
m - Repel Missiles Chrm/Air #####. 1% 2 None
n - Lehudib's Crystal Sp Conj/Erth #######... 4% 8 ######.
o - Apportation Tloc #######... 0% 1 None
r - Regeneration Chrm/Necr ###....... 10% 3 None
Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations
Branches:
Dungeon (15/15) Temple (0/1) D:7 Lair (8/8) D:10
Shoals (4/4) Lair:3 Snake (4/4) Lair:6 Slime (0/6) Lair:7
Orc (4/4) D:10 Elf (3/3) Orc:4 Vaults (4/5) D:14
Crypt (0/3) Vaults:2 Depths (5/5) D:15 Zot (4/5) Depths:5
Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Beogh
Jiyva
Shops:
D:4 [ D:12 } D:13 : Orc:2 * Orc:4 *(%*} Shoals:1 : Shoals:3 !
Shoals:4 % Snake:4 = Vaults:2 [ Depths:4 *
Portals:
Hell: Lair:8 Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5
Abyss: Depths:5
Pandemonium: Depths:3 Depths:4
Ziggurat: Depths:2
Annotations:
D:5 1 exclusion
D:7 Ned's ghost, experienced MiGl
Lair:5 exclusion: oklob plant
Shoals:1 fcloud
Elf:2 3 runed doors
Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations
You cannot wear armour.
You are incapable of wielding weapons or throwing items.
You have sharp claws.
You have razor-sharp teeth.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
You are carnivorous and can eat meat at any time.
You cover ground quickly.
Your thick and shaggy fur keeps you warm (AC +3, rC+).
You have a slow metabolism.
Your sharp claws are effective at attacking unaware monsters.
You have a pair of small horns on your head.
You can breathe flames.
Message History
The black draconian is engulfed in freezing vapours.
The mottled draconian is engulfed in freezing vapours.
Unknown command.
There is an open door here.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Your skin is crawling a little less now.
Unknown command.
Casting: Shroud of Golubria
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Freezing Cloud
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor
That beam is likely to hit you. Continue anyway?
You are engulfed in freezing vapours. You resist.
The purple draconian knight seems to slow down.
The purple draconian knight casts a spell.
The purple draconian knight flickers and vanishes for a moment.
Unknown command.
The purple draconian knight is engulfed in freezing vapours.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
The purple draconian knight seems to slow down.
Unknown command.
Your skin stops crawling.
The purple draconian knight is engulfed in freezing vapours.
Unknown command.
The purple draconian knight seems to slow down.
Unknown command.
Casting: Freezing Cloud
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Freezing Cloud
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor
The purple draconian knight gestures wildly while chanting.
The purple draconian knight seems to speed up.
Unknown command.
The purple draconian knight is engulfed in freezing vapours.
Unknown command.
The purple draconian knight seems to slow down.
Unknown command.
Casting: Freezing Cloud
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - purple draconian knight
Aim: a purple draconian knight, wielding a great mace of protection and wearing a cloak (freezing vapour, heavily wounded, fast+slow, slightly transparent, covered in an icy film)
You miscast Lehudib's Crystal Spear.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
Sparks fly from your paws!
The purple draconian knight is engulfed in freezing vapours.
Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - purple draconian knight
Aim: a purple draconian knight, wielding a great mace of protection and wearing a cloak (heavily wounded, fast+slow, slightly transparent, covered in an icy film)
The crystal spear misses the purple draconian knight.
Press: ? - help, v - describe, . - travel
Here: a purple draconian knight, wielding a great mace of protection and wearing a cloak (heavily wounded, fast+slow, slightly transparent, covered in an icy film)
The floor.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
There is an open door here.
Unknown command.
The purple draconian knight gestures at you while chanting.
The shard of ice is repelled.
Unknown command.
Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - purple draconian knight
Aim: a purple draconian knight, wielding a great mace of protection and wearing a cloak (heavily wounded, fast+slow, slightly transparent, covered in an icy film)
The crystal spear hits the purple draconian knight.
You kill the purple draconian knight!
Vehumet accepts your kill.
You feel your power returning.
Things that are here:
a great mace of protection; a cloak
Unknown command.
There is an open door here.
Your skin feels tender.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
Unknown command.
You start resting.
HP restored.
Unknown command.
You start resting.
Your shroud begins to fray at the edges.
Unknown command.
You start resting.
Your shroud unravels.
Unknown command.
You start resting.
Your magical contamination has completely faded away.
Unknown command.
You start resting.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - white draconian
Aim: a white draconian, wielding a scimitar
The crystal spear hits the white draconian.
The white draconian is severely wounded.
The white draconian breathes frost at you.
The chilling blast misses you.
Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - white draconian
Aim: a white draconian, wielding a scimitar (severely wounded, catching its breath)
The crystal spear hits the white draconian.
You kill the white draconian!
Vehumet accepts your kill.
You feel your power returning.
You are feeling hungry.
Unknown command.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
Unknown command.
Eat which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
You climb upwards.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
You start resting.
Unknown command.
Eat which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
You climb downwards.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
You can't see any susceptible monsters within range! (Use Z to cast anyway.)
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
You can't see any susceptible monsters within range! (Use Z to cast anyway.)
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
There is an open door, spattered with blood here.
Things that are here:
a scimitar; a white draconian corpse
Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - mottled draconian
Aim: a mottled draconian, wielding a trident (hasn't noticed you)
The crystal spear misses the mottled draconian.
The mottled draconian roars!
You are feeling very hungry.
The mottled draconian spits sticky flame at you.
The splash of liquid fire misses you.
Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - mottled draconian
Aim: a mottled draconian, wielding a trident (catching its breath)
The crystal spear hits the mottled draconian.
The mottled draconian is severely wounded.
You are near starving!
Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - mottled draconian
Aim: a mottled draconian, wielding a trident (severely wounded, catching its breath)
The crystal spear hits the mottled draconian.
You kill the mottled draconian!
Vehumet accepts your kill.
You see here a trident.
Unknown command.
Eat which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
There is an open door, spattered with blood here.
Things that are here:
a scimitar; a white draconian corpse
Unknown command.
You butcher the white draconian corpse.
t - 4 chunks of flesh
There is an open door, spattered with blood here.
Things that are here:
a scimitar; a white draconian skeleton
Eating one of 4 chunks of flesh. This raw flesh tastes great.
You are feeling hungry.
You continue eating. x2
You are feeling very hungry.
Eating one of 3 chunks of flesh. This raw flesh tastes great.
You continue eating. x2
Eating one of 2 chunks of flesh. This raw flesh tastes great.
You continue eating. x2
Eating a chunk of flesh. This raw flesh tastes great.
You continue eating. x2
,,,* #......♣ ♣§#
**,* #......♣ ♣.#
*,* #......♣♣♣♣)#
*,* #...........#
*,* #...........#
**,* #...........#
,,,* #...........#
**,* #..<........#
*,* #...@.......#
#.* #...........#
*#§* #...........#
d§d* #...........#
*#q* ####)#......#
#d* #..+......#
#§*###########.##......#
##§##§.......##.##..$...#
..§§§§§.d....##.##......#
There are no monsters in sight!
Vanquished Creatures
Sojobo (Depths:2)
Margery (Depths:5)
Norris (Depths:2)
Saint Roka (Elf:3)
A curse toe (Zot:1)
4 golden dragons
Jorgrun (Depths:2)
6 tentacled monstrosities
Asterion (Elf:3)
4 liches
A titan (Depths:2)
2 deep elf master archers (Elf:3)
A kraken (Shoals:4)
2 sphinxes
3 octopode crushers
Gastronok (Lair:2)
6 tentacled starspawn
2 shadow dragons (Depths:4)
7 greater nagas
5 draconian monks
Roxanne (Elf:3)
8 storm dragons
4 frost giants
6 tengu reavers
Ilsuiw (Shoals:4)
A ghost moth (Zot:2)
An iron dragon (Depths:4)
5 draconian knights
10 deep elf sorcerers
Maud (Lair:7)
3 draconian scorchers
An orc warlord (Vaults:3)
6 vault wardens
Aizul (Shoals:3)
11 fire giants
4 draconian zealots
17 stone giants
8 ironheart preservers
4 draconian annihilators
4 draconian shifters
A spriggan defender (Depths:4)
3 draconian callers
3 vampire knights
7 very ugly things
Nessos (D:14)
7 green draconians
4 black draconians
5 deep elf demonologists
7 purple draconians
The ghost of Bravepunisher the Grappler, a powerful TrMo of Okawaru (Orc:4)
7 yellow draconians
6 red draconians
3 white draconians
6 deep elf annihilators (Elf:3)
8 mottled draconians
11 ettins
2 jiangshi (Depths:3)
4 deep elf death magi
Snorg (Orc:2)
6 merfolk javelineers
4 deep elf high priests (Elf:3)
19 fire dragons
4 vault guards (D:14)
5 merfolk impalers
19 yaktaur captains
Josephine (Lair:8)
6 entropy weavers
3 death cobs
10 great orbs of eyes
13 hydras
16 naga warriors
A caustic shrike simulacrum (Depths:3)
15 ice dragons
A spriggan air mage (Depths:4)
3 rakshasas
21 centaur warriors
18 anacondas
10 ogre magi
5 alligator snapping turtles
An alligator (Shoals:3)
4 catoblepae
A dancing weapon (Elf:2)
7 merfolk avatars
A satyr (Shoals:4)
2 vampire magi
2 merfolk aquamancers (Shoals:4)
9 deep troll shamans
10 deep troll earth magi
A queen ant (D:12)
23 death yaks
2 thrashing horrors
18 naga sharpshooters
3 small abominations
6 spriggan berserkers
15 deep elf knights
7 shock serpents
Urug (D:12)
10 tengu warriors
4 orc high priests
A sun demon (Lair:8)
Sonja (D:10)
Nergalle (Lair:2)
2 shadow wraiths
2 wretched stars (Abyss:3)
6 fire crabs
A death drake (Depths:3)
3 salamander mystics
A spatial maelstrom (Abyss:3)
6 hell knights
2 iron trolls
9 sea snakes
4 lindwurms (Depths:3)
A fire crab (shapeshifter) (Depths:2)
5 skeletal warriors (D:14)
14 naga ritualists
3 giant orange brains
3 flayed ghosts
12 ironbrand convokers
11 deep elf summoners
A shadow demon (Depths:3)
A golden dragon zombie (Depths:1)
An infernal demonspawn (Depths:4)
4 unseen horrors
An ice statue (IceCv)
2 ice devils
9 hill giants
Pikel (D:6)
7 necromancers
3 phantasmal warriors
A wolf spider zombie (D:14)
16 orc knights
The ghost of ossan the Blocker, an experienced FoFi of Okawaru (D:6)
A tengu zombie (Depths:2)
12 deep elf conjurers
11 wizards
2 wolf spiders
11 manticores
A gelid demonspawn (Depths:3)
25 deep trolls
A putrid demonspawn (Depths:4)
12 mana vipers
17 harpies
An oklob plant (Depths:3)
4 water nymphs
8 fauns
19 salamanders
A stone giant zombie (Depths:2)
A worldbinder (Abyss:1)
32 naga magi
9 orc sorcerers
A guardian serpent (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
14 moths of wrath
6 cyclopes
2 sixfirhies
36 ugly things
14 griffons
A cyclops (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
10 sirens
Maurice (D:13)
10 elephants (Lair:6)
55 black mambas
A rust devil (Depths:4)
11 spiny frogs
13 vault sentinels
A gargoyle (D:10)
5 guardian serpents
4 torpor snails
2 orange demons (Lair:8)
A spriggan skeleton (Depths:1)
A human zombie (Vaults:1)
2 kobold demonologists
2 hellions (Zot:3)
7 tengu conjurers
A tormentor (Depths:4)
10 komodo dragons
6 fire drakes
2 harpy zombies
4 efreet
2 hellwings
A jumping spider (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
2 human skeletons
14 freezing wraiths
72 yaktaurs
A polar bear (shapeshifter) (Vaults:1)
4 red devils
9 deep elf priests
An ancient zyme (Abyss:3)
10 raiju
6 trolls
28 merfolk
2 jumping spiders (Depths:4)
7 boulder beetles
2 blue devils
A wind drake (Shoals:3)
16 two-headed ogres
A sphinx simulacrum (Depths:3)
A raiju (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
40 slime creatures
2 spriggan zombies
A wind drake (shapeshifter) (Depths:3)
40 blink frogs
2 blink frogs (shapeshifter)
A snapping turtle (shapeshifter) (Depths:3)
8 wraiths
11 snapping turtles
A tarantella (shapeshifter) (Depths:4)
A fire giant simulacrum (Vaults:1)
16 redbacks
A fire dragon skeleton (Depths:1)
3 ynoxinuls
2 tarantellas
4 wyverns
A spriggan (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
28 deep elf magi
A spriggan (D:10)
4 basilisks (shapeshifter)
19 deep elf fighters
5 basilisks
2 elf zombies
2 air elementals (Depths:4)
A fire bat (Shoals:2)
55 yaks
3 hogs
13 water elementals
3 hungry ghosts
A hog (shapeshifter) (Elf:2)
A neqoxec (Abyss:2)
21 hippogriffs
25 vampire mosquitoes
2 wargs (D:15)
A steam dragon (Lair:5)
4 mottled dragons
14 wolves
61 nagas
3 large abominations
A soldier ant (shapeshifter) (Elf:2)
21 soldier ants
18 water moccasins
Duvessa (D:6)
8 spiders (Depths:1)
2 eyes of draining
15 porcupines
2 swamp drakes (Depths:3)
4 hell hounds (Lair:8)
10 ice beasts
A necrophage (D:11)
3 slaves (D:6)
5 sky beasts
A black bear (shapeshifter) (D:12)
47 orc warriors
3 phantoms
An alligator simulacrum (IceCv)
12 black bears
32 ogres
31 centaurs
5 boggarts
23 crocodiles
2 wasps (D:13)
4 big kobolds
23 giant frogs
A brain worm (D:15)
10 scorpions
3 elephant simulacra (IceCv)
6 killer bees (D:13)
8 wights (D:15)
8 crimson imps
6 centaur zombies
11 electric eels
5 draconian simulacra (IceCv)
9 hounds
17 jellies
2 giant frog skeletons
4 gnoll shamans (D:8)
3 giant frog zombies
4 quasits
Ijyb (D:3)
6 centaur skeletons
45 orc wizards
Natasha (thrice) (D:3)
32 orc priests
3 spriggan simulacra (IceCv)
34 worker ants
6 troll simulacra (IceCv)
16 iguanas
41 sheep
A centaur simulacrum (IceCv)
A hound zombie (D:6)
3 hound skeletons
A worker ant zombie (D:8)
4 ogre simulacra (IceCv)
6 gnolls
89 river rats
A naga simulacrum (IceCv)
15 adders
8 shadow imps
27 white imps
4 ufetubi (Depths:4)
3 oozes
2 adder zombies (D:6)
2 worms
3 giant geckos
208 orcs
14 bats
4 giant cockroaches
14 hobgoblins
15 jackals
19 kobolds
8 quokkas
6 ball pythons
2 giant cockroach zombies
A giant gecko skeleton (D:5)
2 giant gecko zombies
2 giant newts
17 goblins
A jackal zombie (D:6)
2 quokka skeletons
A quokka zombie (D:8)
21 rats
A butterfly (Lair:6)
2 crawling corpses (Elf:1)
2 fulminant prisms (D:8)
4 fungi
4 lurking horrors
15 plants
A starspawn tentacle (Abyss:3)
2 starspawn tentacle segments (Abyss:3)
2749 creatures vanquished.
Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
A green draconian (Zot:4)
2 deep troll shamans (Depths:5)
2 deep trolls (Depths:5)
A necromancer (Depths:5)
A slave (D:6)
Dowan (D:6)
2 orc wizards
A hound (D:4)
A worker ant (D:4)
An orc (D:6)
A goblin (D:3)
14 creatures vanquished.
Vanquished Creatures (others)
A tengu reaver (Depths:5)
An unseen horror (Vaults:1)
An ugly thing (Depths:3)
A swamp worm (shapeshifter) (Depths:1)
2 ogres (Vaults:3)
2 small abominations (Abyss:3)
An orc priest (Orc:4)
An ufetubus (Abyss:1)
2 bushes
A butterfly (Zot:4)
185 fulminant prisms
56 fungi
77 plants
17 starspawn tentacles
273 starspawn tentacle segments
10 tentacles (Shoals:4)
69 tentacle segments (Shoals:4)
700 creatures vanquished.
Grand Total: 3463 creatures vanquished
Notes
Turn | Place | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
0 | D:1 | hyperborean the Felid Wanderer began the quest for the Orb.
0 | D:1 | hyperborean set off with: a book of Minor Magic, a potion of curing, a wand of random effects (15), a meat ration
0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 7/7 MP: 4/4
2 | D:1 | Learned a level 1 spell: Magic Dart
469 | D:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Unarmed Combat
543 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 9/11 MP: 3/6
619 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
622 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Call Imp
1616 | D:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
1778 | D:1 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 14/14 MP: 1/7
1939 | D:2 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
1939 | D:2 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
1940 | D:2 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
1957 | D:2 | Became a worshipper of Vehumet
2282 | D:2 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
2925 | D:3 | Reached skill level 2 in Conjurations
3571 | D:3 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 18/18 MP: 1/8
3810 | D:3 | Acquired Vehumet's first power
3810 | D:3 | Offered knowledge of Sandblast by Vehumet.
4212 | D:3 | Noticed Natasha
4215 | D:3 | Killed Natasha
4215 | D:3 | Reached skill level 3 in Conjurations
4519 | D:3 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 19/21 MP: 3/10
4879 | D:3 | Reached skill level 3 in Spellcasting
5271 | D:3 | Noticed Natasha
5304 | D:3 | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
5696 | D:4 | Noticed a phantom
5712 | D:4 | Learned a level 1 spell: Sandblast
6793 | D:4 | Found Quode's Armour Shoppe.
7521 | D:4 | Gained mutation: You are covered in thick fur (AC +2). [Felid growth]
7521 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 20/24 MP: 4/12
7580 | D:4 | Reached skill level 4 in Conjurations
7939 | D:4 | Reached skill level 4 in Spellcasting
8020 | D:4 | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
8160 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
8364 | D:5 | Offered knowledge of Throw Frost by Vehumet.
8441 | D:5 | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
8750 | D:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
8750 | D:5 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 27/27 MP: 9/14
8859 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
8859 | D:5 | Reached skill level 2 in Fire Magic
9779 | D:6 | Noticed a deep elf mage
9803 | D:6 | Noticed Duvessa
9803 | D:6 | Noticed Dowan
9826 | D:6 | Killed Duvessa
9826 | D:6 | Reached skill level 3 in Fire Magic
10051 | D:6 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
10212 | D:6 | Reached skill level 2 in Dodging
10212 | D:6 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 29/31 MP: 3/15
10350 | D:6 | Offered knowledge of Static Discharge by Vehumet.
10350 | D:6 | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
10470 | D:6 | Killed Dowan
10698 | D:6 | Reached skill level 3 in Dodging
10725 | D:6 | Noticed ossan's ghost (experienced FoFi)
10811 | D:6 | Reached skill level 4 in Dodging
10959 | D:5 | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
11103 | D:6 | Killed ossan's ghost
11103 | D:6 | Reached skill level 3 in Fighting
11103 | D:6 | Reached skill level 6 in Dodging
11388 | D:6 | Killed a deep elf mage
11388 | D:6 | Reached skill level 7 in Dodging
11517 | D:6 | Acquired Vehumet's second power
11987 | D:6 | Reached skill level 4 in Fighting
11987 | D:6 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 27/39 MP: 2/16
12069 | D:6 | Reached skill level 8 in Dodging
12495 | D:6 | Noticed Pikel
12751 | D:6 | Killed Pikel
12751 | D:6 | Reached skill level 9 in Dodging
13012 | D:7 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
13178 | D:7 | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
13179 | D:7 | Noticed a cyclops
13218 | D:7 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
13447 | D:7 | Noticed Ned's ghost (experienced MiGl)
13489 | D:6 | Offered knowledge of Fulminant Prism by Vehumet.
13841 | D:7 | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
14227 | D:7 | Learned a level 4 spell: Fulminant Prism
14353 | D:7 | Killed a cyclops
14353 | D:7 | Reached skill level 2 in Hexes
14353 | D:7 | Reached skill level 3 in Earth Magic
14611 | D:8 | Reached skill level 3 in Hexes
14824 | D:7 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 42/44 MP: 4/19
15095 | D:8 | Reached skill level 4 in Earth Magic
15714 | D:8 | Noticed a manticore
15723 | D:8 | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic
15734 | D:8 | Killed a manticore
15734 | D:8 | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
16047 | D:8 | Acquired Vehumet's third power
16112 | D:8 | Reached skill level 6 in Earth Magic
17425 | D:8 | Reached skill level 7 in Earth Magic
17581 | D:8 | Offered knowledge of Lee's Rapid Deconstruction by Vehumet.
17723 | D:8 | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
18080 | D:8 | Reached XP level 11. HP: 48/48 MP: 3/22
18197 | D:8 | Reached skill level 8 in Earth Magic
18493 | D:8 | Identified the Almanac of the End
18529 | D:8 | Learned a level 5 spell: Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
18736 | D:8 | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
20648 | D:9 | Reached skill level 9 in Earth Magic
21123 | D:9 | Offered knowledge of Spellforged Servitor by Vehumet.
21131 | D:9 | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
21838 | D:10 | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
21867 | D:10 | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
22167 | D:10 | Noticed Sonja
22180 | D:10 | Killed Sonja
22388 | D:10 | Reached skill level 10 in Earth Magic
23254 | D:10 | Found a staircase to the Lair.
23331 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant
23348 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant
23613 | Lair:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
24074 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
24450 | Lair:1 | Gained mutation: Your thick and shaggy fur keeps you warm (AC +3, rC+). [Felid growth]
24450 | Lair:1 | Reached XP level 12. HP: 51/51 MP: 21/26
24837 | Lair:1 | Learned a level 5 spell: Bolt of Magma
26237 | Lair:2 | Noticed Gastronok
26577 | Lair:2 | Noticed Nergalle
26640 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
26728 | Lair:2 | Killed Nergalle
27189 | Lair:2 | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
27240 | Lair:2 | Killed a seven-headed hydra
27679 | Lair:3 | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
27752 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 6 in Conjurations
27974 | Lair:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
28163 | Lair:3 | Offered knowledge of Venom Bolt by Vehumet.
28236 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 11 in Spellcasting
29014 | Lair:3 | Killed an eight-headed hydra
29109 | Lair:3 | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
29118 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 7 in Conjurations
29430 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 4 in Fire Magic
29874 | Lair:4 | Learned a level 6 spell: Iron Shot
29956 | Lair:4 | Reached skill level 11 in Earth Magic
30182 | Lair:4 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
30393 | Lair:4 | Reached XP level 13. HP: 55/55 MP: 24/29
30575 | Lair:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Fighting
31215 | Lair:4 | Gained mutation: You can breathe flames. [potion of beneficial mutation]
31736 | Lair:5 | Upgraded the game from 0.17-a0-1596-g1e86911 to 0.17-a0-1617-gfba1302
31744 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 8 in Conjurations
31901 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 11 in Dodging
31903 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic
32552 | Lair:5 | HP: 2/56 [blink frog (19)]
33298 | Lair:6 | Offered knowledge of Freezing Cloud by Vehumet.
33905 | Lair:6 | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
33963 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 7 in Fighting
34209 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 9 in Conjurations
34683 | Lair:6 | Reached XP level 14. HP: 61/61 MP: 5/30
34883 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 6 in Fire Magic
35171 | Lair:7 | Noticed Maud
35469 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 12 in Dodging
35724 | Lair:7 | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
35725 | Lair:7 | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
35866 | Lair:7 | Identified 3 scrolls of acquirement
35932 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 2 in Stealth
36181 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 3 in Stealth
36248 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 12 in Spellcasting
37253 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 8 in Fighting
37341 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 4 in Stealth
37341 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 12 in Earth Magic
38034 | Lair:7 | Killed Maud
38076 | Lair:8 | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
38116 | Lair:8 | Offered knowledge of Delayed Fireball by Vehumet.
38400 | Lair:8 | Noticed Josephine
38406 | Lair:8 | Killed Josephine
38406 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
38722 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 7 in Fire Magic
39373 | Lair:8 | Reached XP level 15. HP: 67/67 MP: 19/32
39643 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 13 in Dodging
39917 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
40193 | Lair:8 | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
40592 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 9 in Fighting
40730 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 6 in Stealth
40892 | Lair:8 | Found a gateway to Hell.
41351 | Lair:2 | Killed Gastronok
41736 | D:3 | Noticed Ijyb
41746 | D:3 | Killed Ijyb
42054 | D:3 | Killed Natasha
42054 | D:3 | Offered knowledge of Poisonous Cloud by Vehumet.
42065 | D:3 | Learned a level 6 spell: Poisonous Cloud
42219 | D:3 | Noticed Natasha
42224 | D:3 | Killed Natasha
42529 | D:11 | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
43065 | D:11 | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
43473 | D:11 | Reached skill level 2 in Poison Magic
43762 | D:12 | Reached skill level 2 in Air Magic
43946 | D:12 | Reached skill level 3 in Poison Magic
44090 | D:12 | Reached skill level 3 in Air Magic
44875 | D:12 | Found Toji Ilo's Gadget Shoppe.
44928 | D:12 | Noticed Urug
44934 | D:12 | Killed Urug
45558 | Orc:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
45703 | Orc:2 | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Cold by Vehumet.
45790 | Orc:2 | You fall through a shaft!
45968 | Orc:3 | Reached skill level 4 in Poison Magic
46169 | Orc:3 | Reached skill level 4 in Air Magic
46676 | Orc:2 | Noticed Snorg
46699 | Orc:2 | Killed Snorg
46878 | Orc:2 | Found Lihasem's Off-Brand Ammunition.
47385 | Orc:1 | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
47387 | Orc:1 | Offered knowledge of Poison Arrow by Vehumet.
47667 | Orc:1 | Found a runed door.
47867 | Orc:1 | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
47976 | Orc:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
48100 | Orc:4 | Noticed Bravepunisher's ghost (powerful TrMo)
48287 | Orc:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Poison Magic
48433 | Orc:4 | Found Foblugab's Gadget Shoppe.
48536 | Orc:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Air Magic
49064 | Orc:4 | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
49441 | Orc:4 | Found Kohauk's Assorted Antiques.
49441 | Orc:4 | Found Big Dyps's Antique Weapon Shoppe.
49443 | Orc:4 | Found Luycao's Food Shop.
49443 | Orc:4 | Found Kefoarim's Assorted Antiques.
49449 | Orc:4 | Bought a scroll labeled SOIRUQUCIS for 32 gold pieces
49449 | Orc:4 | Bought a lumpy pink potion for 28 gold pieces
49454 | Orc:4 | Bought a sapphire potion for 28 gold pieces
49462 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of magic for 256 gold pieces
49471 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of brilliance for 128 gold pieces
49471 | Orc:4 | Bought a leatherbound book for 480 gold pieces
49672 | Orc:4 | Killed Bravepunisher's ghost
49672 | Orc:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Poison Magic
50057 | D:13 | Reached skill level 6 in Air Magic
50256 | D:13 | Reached XP level 16. HP: 72/72 MP: 18/33
50476 | D:13 | Noticed Maurice
50479 | D:13 | Killed Maurice
50907 | D:13 | Found Ybamust's Book Boutique.
50944 | D:13 | Learned a level 6 spell: Poison Arrow
51676 | D:13 | Reached skill level 7 in Poison Magic
51981 | D:13 | Reached skill level 7 in Air Magic
52224 | D:14 | Noticed Nessos
52241 | D:14 | Killed Nessos
52270 | D:14 | Found a frozen archway.
52399 | IceCv | Entered an ice cave
52402 | IceCv | Offered knowledge of Lehudib's Crystal Spear by Vehumet.
52402 | IceCv | Offered knowledge of Fire Storm by Vehumet.
52402 | IceCv | Offered knowledge of Chain Lightning by Vehumet.
53048 | IceCv | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
53516 | D:14 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
53586 | D:14 | Found a gate to the Vaults.
53613 | D:14 | Reached skill level 13 in Spellcasting
54975 | D:14 | Learned a level 2 spell: Stoneskin
54977 | D:15 | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
54984 | D:15 | Reached skill level 14 in Spellcasting
55256 | D:15 | Found a staircase to the Depths.
56644 | D:15 | Learned a level 2 spell: Swiftness
57165 | Shoals:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Shoals
57861 | Shoals:1 | Found Wuused's Book Shop.
57864 | Shoals:1 | Bought a book of Clouds for 585 gold pieces
58286 | Shoals:2 | Reached skill level 2 in Evocations
58529 | Shoals:2 | Reached XP level 17. HP: 75/75 MP: 17/36
58745 | Shoals:2 | Reached skill level 3 in Evocations
59180 | Shoals:2 | Reached skill level 4 in Evocations
59401 | Shoals:2 | Reached skill level 11 in Conjurations
59815 | Shoals:3 | Found Nimu Pedgh's Distillery.
59828 | Shoals:3 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces
59828 | Shoals:3 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces
59828 | Shoals:3 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces
59828 | Shoals:3 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces
59830 | Shoals:3 | Bought 2 potions of brilliance for 128 gold pieces
59855 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting
60060 | Shoals:3 | Noticed Aizul
60348 | Shoals:1 | Learned a level 6 spell: Freezing Cloud
60390 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 2 in Ice Magic
60616 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 3 in Ice Magic
60738 | Shoals:3 | Killed Aizul
60738 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 4 in Ice Magic
60896 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic
61256 | Shoals:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Shoals
61359 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Ice Magic
61503 | Shoals:4 | Noticed Ilsuiw
61952 | Shoals:4 | Found Hynifoh's Food Boutique.
61962 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
62139 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 7 in Ice Magic
62418 | Shoals:4 | Killed Ilsuiw
63091 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 8 in Ice Magic
63106 | Shoals:4 | Got a barnacled rune of Zot
63626 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Evocations
64132 | Snake:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Snake Pit
64209 | Snake:1 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
64491 | Snake:1 | Reached skill level 14 in Dodging
64757 | Snake:1 | Reached XP level 18. HP: 80/80 MP: 21/38
64939 | Snake:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
65623 | Snake:1 | Reached skill level 12 in Conjurations
65932 | Snake:1 | Reached skill level 7 in Evocations
66612 | D:13 | Bought a book of Power for 495 gold pieces
66620 | D:13 | Learned a level 7 spell: Orb of Destruction
66940 | Snake:1 | You fall through a shaft!
68557 | Snake:3 | Reached skill level 13 in Conjurations
70003 | Snake:3 | Reached skill level 14 in Conjurations
71125 | Snake:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Snake Pit
71780 | Snake:4 | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
71902 | Snake:4 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 58/85 MP: 34/39
72126 | Snake:4 | Found Honius's Jewellery Boutique.
72134 | Snake:4 | Bought the ring "Coellioku" {SustAt rC+ Int+4} for 718 gold pieces
72962 | Snake:4 | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
72998 | Snake:4 | Reached skill level 8 in Evocations
73687 | Snake:4 | Reached skill level 11 in Fighting
74350 | Snake:4 | Got a serpentine rune of Zot
75363 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
75630 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 15 in Conjurations
75907 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 9 in Evocations
77439 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 16 in Dodging
77864 | Vaults:2 | Reached XP level 20. HP: 91/91 MP: 16/40
77900 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 12 in Fighting
78079 | Vaults:2 | Found Finig Zamu's Antique Armour Shoppe.
78171 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
78171 | Vaults:2 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
78186 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Evocations
78284 | Vaults:2 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
80082 | Shoals:1 | Bought a book of Battle for 520 gold pieces
80086 | Shoals:1 | Learned a level 3 spell: Regeneration
80633 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 16 in Spellcasting
82305 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 11 in Evocations
82943 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 17 in Dodging
83539 | Shoals:3 | Bought a potion of curing for 48 gold pieces
83842 | D:12 | Bought a phial of floods for 560 gold pieces
83842 | D:12 | Bought a lamp of fire for 560 gold pieces
84469 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 13 in Fighting
85333 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 16 in Conjurations
85353 | Vaults:4 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 77/97 MP: 22/42
85667 | Vaults:4 | Got a crude tin ring
86226 | Elf:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
86231 | Elf:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Shroud of Golubria
86278 | Elf:1 | Found a flickering gateway to a bazaar.
86306 | Elf:1 | Identified the ring of Ashenzari's Esteem {rC++ rN+ Dex+5} (You took it off an orc on level 4 of the Vaults)
86319 | Bazaar | Entered a bazaar
86323 | Bazaar | Found Efiriuv's Jewellery Boutique.
86348 | Bazaar | Found Etruik's Antique Weapon Shoppe.
86365 | Bazaar | Found Bodub's Gadget Boutique.
86382 | Bazaar | Found Goseynt's Antique Armour Emporium.
86415 | Bazaar | Bought a box of beasts for 300 gold pieces
86791 | Elf:1 | Identified Lehudib's Disquisition on Attacks and the Arsonist (You found it on level 1 of the Elven Halls)
86843 | Elf:1 | Reached skill level 12 in Evocations
88002 | Elf:2 | Found a runed gate.
88002 | Elf:2 | Found a runed gate.
88002 | Elf:2 | Found a runed gate.
88077 | Elf:3 | Entered Level 3 of the Elven Halls
88079 | Elf:3 | Noticed Saint Roka
88090 | Elf:3 | Killed Saint Roka
88104 | Elf:3 | Reached skill level 7 in Stealth
88304 | Elf:3 | Noticed Asterion
88307 | Elf:3 | Killed Asterion
88455 | Elf:3 | Noticed Roxanne
88459 | Elf:3 | Killed Roxanne
88963 | Elf:3 | Cast into the Abyss (a deep elf sorcerer)
89190 | Abyss:1 | Noticed an ancient lich
89241 | Abyss:1 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
89440 | Elf:3 | Escaped the Abyss
89750 | Elf:3 | Reached skill level 13 in Earth Magic
89968 | Elf:3 | Reached skill level 8 in Stealth
90433 | Elf:3 | Reached skill level 18 in Dodging
90463 | Elf:3 | Got a brightly glowing jade amulet
90474 | Elf:3 | Identified the amulet "Zyesmu" {Faith rElec} (You took it off a deep elf sorcerer on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
90519 | Elf:3 | Got a coiled ivory ring
90522 | Elf:3 | Identified the ring of Incredulity {+Blink rElec rPois Stlth+} (You took it off a deep elf conjurer on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
90569 | Elf:3 | Identified the Almanac of Transformation
90727 | Elf:3 | Got a crude glass ring
90729 | Elf:3 | Identified the cursed ring of the Monkey {rN++ Int-3 Dex+2} (You took it off a deep elf sorcerer on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
91322 | Depths:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Depths
91706 | Depths:2 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat.
91708 | Depths:2 | Noticed Jorgrun
91779 | Depths:2 | Killed Jorgrun
91977 | Depths:2 | Noticed Sojobo
92206 | Depths:2 | Reached XP level 22. HP: 102/102 MP: 35/43
92428 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 9 in Stealth
92759 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 14 in Fighting
92931 | Depths:2 | Noticed Norris
93020 | Depths:2 | Killed Norris
93592 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 13 in Evocations
94476 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 17 in Spellcasting
95357 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Stealth
96216 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 14 in Earth Magic
96634 | Depths:2 | Killed Sojobo
97192 | Depths:3 | Got a shimmering turquoise ring
97194 | Depths:3 | Identified the ring of the Chupacabra {Dex+3 Stlth-} (You found it on level 3 of the Depths)
97649 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 11 in Stealth
98302 | Depths:3 | Reached XP level 23. HP: 107/107 MP: 19/45
98466 | Depths:3 | Upgraded the game from 0.17-a0-1617-gfba1302 to 0.17-a0-1625-g47e540b
99051 | Depths:3 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium.
99617 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 17 in Conjurations
100829 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 19 in Dodging
101370 | Depths:4 | Found Kihu's General Store.
101375 | Depths:4 | Bought a scroll of acquirement for 728 gold pieces
101375 | Depths:4 | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 49 gold pieces
101375 | Depths:4 | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 49 gold pieces
101445 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
101738 | Depths:4 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
102454 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 15 in Earth Magic
103355 | Depths:4 | Identified Siengecu's Catalogue of the Tick (You found it on level 4 of the Depths)
103468 | Depths:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Depths
104540 | Depths:5 | Noticed Margery
104559 | Depths:5 | Killed Margery
104612 | Depths:5 | Reached XP level 24. HP: 58/113 MP: 0/45
105237 | Depths:5 | Reached skill level 18 in Spellcasting
105913 | Depths:5 | Found a gate to the Realm of Zot.
106083 | Depths:5 | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss.
106810 | Depths:5 | Learned a level 8 spell: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
106906 | Depths:5 | Gained mutation: You have a pair of small horns on your head. [potion of beneficial mutation]
106910 | Depths:5 | Voluntarily entered the Abyss.
107407 | Depths:5 | Escaped the Abyss
107840 | Orc:4 | Bought a wand of teleportation (5) for 432 gold pieces
108223 | Depths:5 | Voluntarily entered the Abyss.
108890 | Abyss:3 | Reached skill level 19 in Spellcasting
108891 | Abyss:3 | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
108912 | Abyss:3 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
108972 | Abyss:3 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
109079 | Abyss:3 | Learned a level 1 spell: Apportation
109444 | Abyss:3 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
109500 | Abyss:3 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
109505 | Abyss:3 | Got an abyssal rune of Zot
109669 | Abyss:3 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
109712 | Depths:5 | Escaped the Abyss
109868 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
110363 | D:15 | Learned a level 4 spell: Passage of Golubria
110367 | D:15 | Learned a level 3 spell: Passwall
110537 | Zot:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Realm of Zot
110599 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 6 in Translocations
110875 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 7 in Translocations
110985 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 8 in Translocations
111280 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 9 in Translocations
111503 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Translocations
111829 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 11 in Translocations
112425 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 12 in Translocations
112639 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 13 in Translocations
113722 | Elf:3 | Learned a level 7 spell: Controlled Blink
114349 | Zot:2 | Reached skill level 14 in Translocations
114831 | Zot:2 | Reached XP level 25. HP: 117/117 MP: 15/47
115187 | Zot:2 | Reached skill level 20 in Dodging
116193 | Zot:4 | Reached skill level 16 in Fighting
Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed | 52 | 48 | 115 | 111 | | | | | || 326
Cast: Magic Dart | 124 | 200 | 393 | 848 | 306 | | | | || 1871
Call Imp | 2 | 11 | 22 | 2 | | | | | || 37
Conjure Flame | | 8 | 40 | 107 | 57 | 4 | | | || 216
Sandblast | | 2 | 8 | 66 | 333 | 230 | 407 | 257 | 27 || 1330
Repel Missiles | | 1 | | 6 | 2 | 5 | 11 | 7 | 1 || 33
Blink | | | 1 | | | 13 | 2 | 34 | 2 || 52
Mephitic Cloud | | | 7 | 21 | 23 | | 2 | | || 53
Fulminant Prism | | | 2 | 81 | 104 | | | | || 187
Lee's Rapid Decon | | | | 22 | 15 | 48 | 15 | 25 | || 125
Bolt of Magma | | | | 45 | 367 | 221 | 38 | 87 | || 758
Iron Shot | | | | | 26 | 21 | 12 | 53 | || 112
Poisonous Cloud | | | | | 11 | 39 | | | || 50
Poison Arrow | | | | | | 188 | 316 | 243 | 2 || 749
Stoneskin | | | | | | 8 | 9 | 5 | 8 || 30
Freezing Cloud | | | | | | 152 | 196 | 163 | 13 || 524
Orb of Destructio | | | | | | 41 | 39 | 88 | 2 || 170
Regeneration | | | | | | | 6 | 17 | 12 || 35
Shroud of Golubri | | | | | | | 4 | 5 | 8 || 17
Lehudib's Crystal | | | | | | | | 115 | 69 || 184
Apportation | | | | | | | | 2 | || 2
Abil: Breathe Fire | | | | | 1 | 1 | | | || 2
Evoke: Wand | | | 1 | 1 | | 7 | | 6 | || 15
Box of beasts | | | | | | | | 8 | 1 || 9
Sack of spiders | | | | | | | | 4 | 2 || 6
Lamp of fire | | | | | | | | 1 | || 1
Use: Scroll | 6 | 9 | 2 | 9 | 12 | 7 | 18 | 23 | 2 || 88
Potion | | 6 | | 2 | 2 | 4 | 10 | 13 | 1 || 38
Stab: Sleeping | 5 | 1 | 1 | 1 | | | | | || 8
Confused | | | 2 | 2 | | | | | || 4
Eat: Chunk | 14 | 10 | 21 | 56 | 114 | 179 | 109 | 134 | 25 || 662
Royal jelly | | | | | | 2 | | | || 2
Meat ration | | | | | | 1 | | 2 | 1 || 4
Pizza | | | | | | 3 | 7 | | || 10
This fella is able to kill approximately 1 draconian at a time, before running out of MP and having to go upstairs. A melee attack wouldn't be practical in this case due to his ridiculously poor defenses and the amount of UC necessary to have a strong attack, and you see the result. Almost 120k turns to make it to Zot with 3 runes.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 19:28
by Wahaha
You have made a huge mistake of not learning iron shot while having LCS, and also not training earth and conj above 20. Anyway this is why I stopped playing with spells as main source of damage, takes too long.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 19:51
by Berder
Wahaha wrote:You have made a huge mistake of not learning iron shot while having LCS, and also not training earth and conj above 20. Anyway this is why I stopped playing with spells as main source of damage, takes too long.
I did have iron shot for a while, and amnesia'd it after I got LCS in order to get passage of golubria & cblink. There was no need for iron shot given the other damage spells I had (LCS, parrow, fcloud, bolt of magma).
I don't think having more earth/conj would have made a noticeable difference in LCS spellpower, but it would have weakened me in other ways.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 20:48
by Siegurt
Note that draconians don't see invis, and felid claws stab, you could get say 8-10 in UC and use evokable invis and use that to tackle draconian packs fairly efficiently.
8 UC would take you very very little time at all to get online at this stage of the game.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 21:49
by Igxfl
Wow, it seems like the MP limit matters and needs to be supplemented with melee to avoid massive tedium. Huh.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 22:04
by Berder
I didn't have evocable invisibility; would have had to go for the spell. Also I don't think it would have been a great idea to try invis stabbing the dracs, because of how fragile the char was, and getting sufficient UC and hexes would have prevented me from getting other things.
Anyway, the point is not to prove the character was built perfectly by not having melee. The reason I bring it up is to show how hard things can be when you're a mage with no melee, as Igxfl rightly pointed out.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 00:16
by Siegurt
Berder wrote:I didn't have evocable invisibility; would have had to go for the spell. Also I don't think it would have been a great idea to try invis stabbing the dracs, because of how fragile the char was, and getting sufficient UC and hexes would have prevented me from getting other things.
Anyway, the point is not to prove the character was built perfectly by not having melee. The reason I bring it up is to show how hard things can be when you're a mage with no melee, as Igxfl rightly pointed out.
I was more saying "When things started to get hard without it, training a little bit of melee would've been both easy (costing you a miniscule amount of XP comparitively) and effective without sacrificing much, if anything" Obviously the lack of evokable invis is a big drawback to this plan (Since you had the evokation needed to use it, it wouldn't have cost you additional XP.)
Of course a stack of potions or a wand would probably suffice, but if you weren't looking for a possible solution, but rather looking for confirmation that you should normally be able to do some sort of damage with 0 MP, then I guess mission accomplished?
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 01:13
by Berder
I don't think invis stabbing would have been worth the investment with that character. Maybe. There's no sense arguing over it, because it isn't relevant to the reason I mentioned the character.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 13:45
by Lasty
This line of argumentation is like saying, "I trained only Dodging, Poison Magic and Charms, and now I'm having a really hard time killing green draconians! It's ridiculous that I can't kill a green draconian when I have three skills at level 27! Clearly the solution is to [make Dodging work like melee combat | make Poison Magic do more irresistable damage | make Charms work like Conjurations]."
The game gives you many, many things that can kill draconians without a fuss, and you are choosing not to use them. The solution isn't to make more things that kill draconians in the hopes that you'll find one of them acceptable for your character to use.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 14:46
by dowan
Well yeah, he acknowledged that as the lead in to his example:
Berder wrote:I would advise nearly any mage to get some form of physical attack, whether it's melee or ranged. Otherwise you end up like my current character:
You're agreeing with him. The main way to kill draconians without a fuss would have been for him to train some sort of physical attack. Your strawman example has nothing to do with it, although if you only look at your post, it makes it look like whoever you're arguing with must be really stupid. A better example would be to say "I trained only dodging, poison magic, and charms, and now I'm having a really hard time killing green draconians! I should have gotten some form of physical attack"
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 17:40
by Sar
I think he could've killed them with LRD if he had it and high enough Earth magic. I remember high-power LRD being strong.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 17:41
by Lasty
dowan wrote:You're agreeing with him
I agree only to the extent that he was agreeing that weapon skills are pretty good skills in Crawl. More specifically what I'm saying is that there are tons of solutions to the scenario he posited, and a non-Earth/Conjurations physical attack is only one of them. Others include hexes (which he dismissed), summons, god abilities, or even different conjurations. My point is that there are actually tons of ways in crawl to solve problems -- particularly problems like draconians -- and Berder is choosing to ignore most of them in order to push for a version of crawl where training magic skills fully replaces weapon skills.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 17:58
by Berder
Thanks, Dowan. Yes, the only reason I bring up the FeWn^Vehumet is to illustrate the problems of not training melee, and to refute duvessa's mysterious claim that melee is not a necessary skill for mages.
Lasty wrote:and Berder is choosing to ignore most of them in order to push for
Let me correct you on this point: the FeWn^vehumet is the fourth game in a hyper-streak, so believe me when I say I was not doing anything to intentionally weaken the character.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:23
by Sandman25
Berder wrote:Yes, the only reason I bring up the FeWn^Vehumet is to illustrate the problems of not training melee, and to refute duvessa's mysterious claim that melee is not a necessary skill for mages.
You cannot refute facts. My SpVM of Kiku got the Orb despite using nothing but spells, even potions/scrolls/wands were prohibited and I was autotraining without ever touching m screen. Even scroll of remove curse was prohibited. If I was able to teleport, I would not die during Orb run so some characters are so OP that they don't need melee.
Also you can see
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/glosham/mor ... 133141.txt for an online example of a Fe who had only UC 12 and didn't melee much, I guess it was just a convenience for popcorn. I have already provided this morgue as an example of a character who had 3 AC the whole game so I hope glosham does not mind me doing it again.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:28
by Berder
A necessary skill for *most* mages, then, where I use "necessary" in the sense of "necessary for strong play" rather than "necessary to scrape out a win." Total avoidance of melee is usually more in the nature of a challenge, with the occasional exception of some fragile races, or players that don't know better.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:31
by Sandman25
Hybridizing is optimal for casters, yes.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:37
by tabstorm
Berder wrote:I would advise nearly any mage to get some form of physical attack, whether it's melee or ranged. Otherwise you end up like my current character:
This fella is able to kill approximately 1 draconian at a time, before running out of MP and having to go upstairs. A melee attack wouldn't be practical in this case due to his ridiculously poor defenses and the amount of UC necessary to have a strong attack, and you see the result. Almost 120k turns to make it to Zot with 3 runes.
Why didn't you just learn a level 9? I mean, if you're going no melee you may as well just do that.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:49
by archaeo
Even if that's absolutely true (and "optimal" is used with such imprecision that it's hard to tell), I still haven't really heard a good explanation for why that has to be considered a bad design. Virtually all my "melee" characters learn some spells, my "stabbers" learn abilities to help them attack things that are awake, etc. Part of the charm of roguelikes, for me, is the degree to which they expect players to actively respond to the resources available to them in any given seed.
In other words, even if we take it as given that non-weapon-carrying mages are unfairly marginalized in Crawl, the answer definitely isn't "level 0 I-can't-believe-it's-not-melee spells" that only serve to restrict player choice. Instead, it seems like Trog is the most useful in-game example for "restrict player choice in exchange for unique gameplay." Some kind of magic Trog, that restricts physical violence (maybe by restricting physical form??) and requires/boosts spellcasting, would be a significantly better solution than that found in the OP.
Of course, I think spellcasting in current Crawl remains totally viable and that players who aren't intentionally playing hard combos can have fine success casting their way through the game. And, while Berder is totally better at Crawl than I am, I can't help but feel that worshipping Veh was not the best choice for FeWn; I don't think I'd ever play a "dedicated spellcaster" or whatever we call this playstyle that had no access to channeling.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:55
by Berder
tabstorm wrote:Why didn't you just learn a level 9? I mean, if you're going no melee you may as well just do that.
Since my major elemental school was Earth, going for Shatter would have been a lot of investment for something that's ineffective on flying enemies, including the most dangerous Orbs of Fire. By the point i was ready to consider Shatter (i.e. after getting LCS), more Fighting, Dodging, and Translocations for cblink made more sense.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:59
by Sandman25
archaeo wrote:I can't help but feel that worshipping Veh was not the best choice for FeWn; I don't think I'd ever play a "dedicated spellcaster" or whatever we call this playstyle that had no access to channeling.
It's a Fe, it can retreat.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 19:00
by Sar
Shatter would be effective on draconians, which you had trouble with.
Shatter usually also means having enough Earth for LCS or at least IS, which are somewhat effective at killing oofs.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 19:02
by bel
EE does not have many multiple target spells, most EE spells are single target. No wonder you are running out of MP.
You should learn Shatter in this case, since it is one of the few multiple-target spells EE get. For OoF you have OoD and LCS, it's not like you are helpless against it. Lvl 9 spells are usually within reach with Vehumet anyway, especially single school ones.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 19:03
by Berder
If I used Shatter in zot, it would kill the draconians, sure, but it would also knock down the walls and attract dragons and orbs of fire and other things shatter wouldn't work on. Shatter is the worst level 9 spell IMO and basically not worth it unless you have XP to burn.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 19:06
by Sandman25
As Fe with 0 UC you do have XP to burn.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 19:46
by Sar
I think Fire Storm is worse, maybe Glaciate too but I actually like Glaciate.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 20:15
by Berder
Sandman25 wrote:As Fe with 0 UC you do have XP to burn.
No, I don't have XP to burn on a level 9 spell that's ineffective on half of the dangerous enemies and brings everything in the level running.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 20:53
by Sar
It's effective on the ones you are saying you had trouble with. Also you can cast it around stairs and retreat, you're a cat after all.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 20:56
by Berder
I mentioned draconians specifically because they are among the weakest enemies in Zot. In other words, if I have to retreat after killing one drac, I obviously also have to retreat after killing a storm dragon, an ancient lich, or an orb of fire - pretty much anything else in Zot aside from death cobs.
Shatter stairdancing in Zot with a felid is a recipe for disaster. Stairdancing in general is something you should only do if you have good defenses, because it involves going up and down stairs with reduced EV while adjacent to several monsters. Plus tentacled monstrosities can constrict you and prevent it.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 20:59
by Sar
I didn't mention stairdancing though? You make noise around one stairs, go up, go down another set of stairs. Since there are 3. Oh well, I am not saying not picking up Shatter was a mistake or anything. Just saying it was an option IMO.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 21:06
by bel
In my experience, freezing cloud works well on draconians, since they are cold blooded.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 21:09
by Berder
You're right, bel, and indeed the FeWn was casting fcloud a lot. However the issue is that waiting around for freezing cloud to kill dracs with the FeWn involved taking excessive damage, so it was usually more practical simply to LCS them.
Re: Level 0 spells
Posted:
Monday, 3rd August 2015, 21:15
by bel
Perhaps, but my point was that cloud spells hit multiple enemies at a time. The defences don't look too bad to me, but with low AC a few bad rolls can make you dead.