Level 0 spells

Friday, 31st July 2015, 17:37 by pubby

I'd much rather see magical staves melee attacks be changed than introduce some weird level 0 nonsense. Right now their power is dependent on three skills: magic, evocations, and staves, when really it should only be based on magic.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 17:44 by duvessa

I think it's ok for staves to use the staves skill but yeah the evocations part is dumb in practice.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 17:46 by Igxfl

The variety of skills seems like its just put in there to balance out the potentially massive damage.
Weakening them a bit and dropping either Staves or Evoc might be good.

I liked the idea of adding a weak, common tier of magic staves as an alternative to the melee proposal.
It'd be floor loot dependent, so a little more in line with Crawl's current design.
Current enchancer staves are generally late and rare enough that they don't consistently fill an equivalent roll though.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 18:08 by dowan

There isn't potentially massive damage, there's potentially ok damage.

duvessa wrote:
dowan wrote:EDIT: Oh, I missed this
Duvessa wrote:I don't think the MP mechanic really does much after the first few dungeon levels.

Alright, nice trolling, you got me...
I'm not trolling. Is my claim really that outlandish?

Your claim that MP doesn't do anything after the first few dungeon levels? Yes, that's pretty wildly outlandish. In my experience, MP matters throughout the entire 15 rune game, if you're relying on damage dealing spells to kill dangerous enemies.

duvessa wrote:
dowan wrote:UC doesn't make all the melee weapon skills useless, I don't see how scaling level 1 spells differently, in an effort to make them kinda like a weaker version of UC, makes anything else useless.
Berder wrote:Here's an alternate suggestion to the level 0 spells: make the level 1 damage spells scale up in a manner that makes them deal damage similar to a melee attack with a similar skill level.

Ah, ok. I guess I missed that, I was going off this:

Berder wrote:To clarify: the formulas are based on doing a bit less damage than the equivalent skill of Unarmed Combat would do. Flame Strike with 15 skill of Fire Magic, against an enemy that's not fire resistant, would do damage comparable to 12 skill of Unarmed Combat.
The goal is: the level 0 spells should be strong enough to use throughout the game against many sorts of enemies, so that mages would have a reason to rely on them and not be compelled to get and train a melee weapon. But the level 0 spells should be weak enough that a dedicated melee character at the same XL would be doing more melee damage, since that's their niche.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 19:08 by bcadren

What if staff damage (and proc rate) relied on spellpower like a normal spell instead of Staves, Magic, Evocations? Minor caster buff in the process?

Friday, 31st July 2015, 19:24 by Hurkyl

bcadren wrote:What if staff damage (and proc rate) relied on spellpower like a normal spell instead of Staves, Magic, Evocations? Minor caster buff in the process?

It would be confusing (what spell?). Also, the way spellpower scales, it would either be an incredible buff to the early game staff damage, or an incredible nerf to late game staff damage.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 19:44 by Lasty

This proposal actively goes against the design choices crawl is based on: that all characters may want to pick up some of any skill, and that choosing to train one skill is a tradeoff against the other skills. Having characters silo themselves heavily is not a design goal of crawl, and proposals made with the goal of increasing siloing will receive no traction.

That said, if we wanted to buff book backgrounds by giving them a better attack to use when they have no mana, we'd give them +0 daggers or clubs to start out rather than inventing a large number of free new non-conjuration conjurations that turn magic skills into weapons skills.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 19:48 by dowan

Maybe it would work as a god though. Gods are allowed to do whatever they want to crawl's design choices. And I think an easy mode magic god would add a fun playstyle for those inclined to do so, just as trog offers an easy mode melee playstyle, and happily locks the player out of over 50% of the game's skills.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 20:04 by bcadren

Hurkyl wrote:It would be confusing (what spell?). Also, the way spellpower scales, it would either be an incredible buff to the early game staff damage, or an incredible nerf to late game staff damage.

Well any pure ice spell will show current ice spellpower; though you could just list it on the I and Z screens, Staff Damage - Spellpower (#) - Miscast rate (Proc Chance). Have no letter next to it, because you can't actually cast it from that menu; but it's fine to put there.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 20:07 by duvessa

dowan wrote:Gods are allowed to do whatever they want to crawl's design choices.

why

Friday, 31st July 2015, 20:28 by dowan

Why? I don't know, I didn't come up with the design philosophy. Gods are the ones who get to change the usual rules of the game. So if one wants to be able to do something that isn't really allowed by the rules of the game, one should either change the rules, or come up with a god for it.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 20:31 by nago

duvessa wrote:
dowan wrote:Gods are allowed to do whatever they want to crawl's design choices.
why

Gozag

Friday, 31st July 2015, 21:49 by Berder

Lasty wrote:This proposal actively goes against the design choices crawl is based on: that all characters may want to pick up some of any skill, and that choosing to train one skill is a tradeoff against the other skills. Having characters silo themselves heavily is not a design goal of crawl, and proposals made with the goal of increasing siloing will receive no traction.

Let's get this straight. "Siloing," I gather from context, means characters that develop along substantially different skill paths from other characters, in this case having characters that only train magic and don't use a weapon, unlike other characters that use weapons. If you try to eliminate "siloing" then by definition you're making characters more similar to each other! This decreases the replay value of the game.

"Siloing" is a good thing. I want to be able to play many different "silos" of meaningfully distinct characters. I don't want to play the same type of character every game. Playing new characters is interesting, playing characters I've basically played before is boring.

By the way, I don't see any mention of "siloing" in the Philosophy section of the Crawl manual. :roll:

However I do see this as a minor design goal:

Crawl Philosophy wrote:replayability (using branches, species, playing styles and gods)

So enabling different playing styles is in line with Crawl philosophy, and your theory about "avoiding silos" is not!

Lasty wrote:That said, if we wanted to buff book backgrounds by giving them a better attack to use when they have no mana, we'd give them +0 daggers or clubs to start out rather than inventing a large number of free new non-conjuration conjurations that turn magic skills into weapons skills.

This is completely missing the point. The issue is mages in lair branches, vaults, depths, or zot, that usually have to branch into melee skills to be competitive and become more of a fighter. I see no problem for mages on D:1 currently.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 21:57 by Berder

pubby wrote:I'd much rather see magical staves melee attacks be changed than introduce some weird level 0 nonsense. Right now their power is dependent on three skills: magic, evocations, and staves, when really it should only be based on magic.

This is a good idea, but it would only work if the mage in question finds a magical staff of the appropriate type fast enough. If an AE doesn't find a staff of air until Swamp:1, that's probably too late because he needs (or could benefit from) a melee attack before then. So this idea would only solve the problem if magical staves were substantially more common, or if they were starting weapons, except that would require some rebalancing to prevent them from being too powerful.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 22:40 by duvessa

dowan wrote:Why? I don't know, I didn't come up with the design philosophy.

The design philosophy doesn't say anything about gods being allowed to ignore it, even if some of them do in practice.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 23:35 by archaeo

dowan wrote:Your claim that MP doesn't do anything after the first few dungeon levels? Yes, that's pretty wildly outlandish. In my experience, MP matters throughout the entire 15 rune game, if you're relying on damage dealing spells to kill dangerous enemies.

I can't speak for duvessa, but I would agree with the idea that for the most part, good play means that you'll be running out of MP in dangerous situations very rarely after the early dungeon. Magic is usually good enough that you can win any battle and then rest up to full MP before encountering the next battle, especially if you play with care and take advantage of spells.

Berder wrote:Let's get this straight. "Siloing," I gather from context, means characters that develop along substantially different skill paths from other characters, in this case having characters that only train magic and don't use a weapon, unlike other characters that use weapons. If you try to eliminate "siloing" then by definition you're making characters more similar to each other! This decreases the replay value of the game.

I think you might be missing Lasty's point, though I also can't speak for him. The goal of avoiding "siloing" isn't to make characters similar to each other, but to prevent a game in which all of a player's important choices are made during character creation. Crawl is meant to be a game where players make strategic choices based on the resources they find in the dungeon and their character's aptitudes, and mechanics that remove those choices have to create other interesting choices or player reactions elsewhere. "Siloing" would involve mechanics that remove a player's agency by eliminating those strategic choices.

Your change would mostly serve to make every "caster" of the same background play the same. There's no incentive to branch out to a good weapon or other things that might pop up, as you have a Level 0 spell quasi-weapon and an ever-growing investment in your spell school. It shuts down player choice in order to protect a "playstyle" that already has pretty wide support in the game. I think that's the kind of "silo" he's talking about.

By the way, I don't see any mention of "siloing" in the Philosophy section of the Crawl manual.

It's not the Crawl Constitution; I think Lasty is pretty accurately describing the dev consensus on this kind of thing.

The issue is mages in lair branches, vaults, depths, or zot, that usually have to branch into melee skills to be competitive and become more of a fighter. I see no problem for mages on D:1 currently.

You know, all that said, I'm still not totally sure I understand this meme. I've won several characters that did the vast majority of their damage via spells (including my first win!), and I don't think it's a terribly difficult way to play. It may not be as strictly "optimal" as a melee build, but Crawl doesn't demand optimal play at all, even for relatively high winrates.

Friday, 31st July 2015, 23:45 by duvessa

I mean even if you think spells are somehow the worst thing ever, it's pretty silly to say training melee skills is optimal when throwing and launchers exist in their current state...

Saturday, 1st August 2015, 01:32 by WingedEspeon

dowan wrote:
duvessa wrote:[quote="dowan"
What characters do you think shouldn't train a melee weapon?
characters that are better at killing monsters using things that aren't melee weapons, such as throwing, launchers, conjurations

So you would advise a player playing a hunter, AM, or conjurer to not train any melee skill? (assuming they didn't find some really awesome melee weapon early on of course)[/quote]
I tried this with KoAM. The character is in vaults and feeling quite strong aside from the bad HP form a -2 HP apt.

(actualy, the conduct was harder than now melee skill training:the character has never melee attacked.)

Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 18:15 by Berder

I would advise nearly any mage to get some form of physical attack, whether it's melee or ranged. Otherwise you end up like my current character:

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.17-a0-1625-g47e540b (webtiles) character file. hyperborean the Spry (Felid Wanderer) Turns: 117741, Time: 09:04:33 Health: 118/118 AC: 3 Str: 6 XL: 25 Next: 28% Magic: 27/47 EV: 36 Int: 24 God: Vehumet [******] Gold: 1223 SH: 0 Dex: 19 Spells: 16 memorised, 1 level left Lives: 2 Deaths: 0 rFire + . . SeeInvis + a - 243 stones rCold + . . Clarity . (armour unavailable) rNeg . . . SustAt . (shield unavailable) rPois + Gourm . (helmet unavailable) rElec + Spirit . (cloak unavailable) rCorr . Warding . (gloves unavailable) rMut + Stasis . (boots unavailable) MR +++.. n - amulet of resist mutation Stlth +++++++... f - ring of protection from fire T - ring of Incredulity {+Blink rElec rPois Stlth+} @: repel missiles, quick, extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely stealthy A: no armour, no weapons or thrown items, claws 1, fangs 3, horns 1, see invisible, breathe flames 1, carnivore 3, speed 1, shaggy fur 3, slow metabolism 1, sharp paws a: Renounce Religion, Breathe Fire, Evoke Blink }: 3/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled, abyssal You are on level 4 of the Realm of Zot. You worship Vehumet. Vehumet is exalted by your worship. You are not hungry. You have visited 9 branches of the dungeon, and seen 51 of its levels. You have visited the Abyss 3 times. You have visited 1 bazaar. You have also visited: Ice Cave. You have collected 7667 gold pieces. You have spent 6444 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Missiles a - 243 stones (in mouth) Jewellery b - an uncursed ring of protection from magic f - a ring of protection from fire (right paw) h - an uncursed ring of positive energy n - an amulet of resist mutation (around neck) x - the ring "Coellioku" {SustAt rC+ Int+4} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Snake Pit) [ring of sustain attributes] It sustains your strength, intelligence and dexterity. It affects your intelligence (+4). It protects you from cold. L - an uncursed ring of teleportation P - an uncursed amulet of warding Q - an uncursed amulet of regeneration R - an uncursed ring of fire T - the ring of Incredulity (left paw) {+Blink rElec rPois Stlth+} (You took it off a deep elf conjurer on level 3 of the Elven Halls) [ring of poison resistance] It insulates you from electricity. It protects you from poison. It lets you blink. It makes you more stealthy. V - the ring of Ashenzari's Esteem {rC++ rN+ Dex+5} (You took it off an orc on level 4 of the Vaults) [ring of dexterity] It affects your dexterity (+5). It greatly protects you from cold. It protects you from negative energy. Magical devices j - a wand of teleportation p - a wand of hasting (2) u - a wand of cold v - a wand of digging (21) B - a wand of invisibility (8) G - a wand of draining S - a wand of disintegration (15) W - a wand of teleportation (5) Scrolls e - 10 scrolls of fog m - a scroll of vulnerability q - 21 scrolls of remove curse r - 8 scrolls of recharging y - 2 scrolls of holy word E - 3 scrolls of summoning F - 4 scrolls of fear H - 2 scrolls of magic mapping O - 6 scrolls of identify Y - a scroll of silence Potions i - 12 potions of brilliance k - 8 potions of agility o - 4 potions of flight s - 2 potions of haste w - 8 potions of magic I - 3 potions of curing K - a potion of invisibility M - 4 potions of cancellation U - 3 potions of heal wounds Z - 3 potions of resistance Miscellaneous c - a box of beasts {used: 9} z - a box of beasts C - a sack of spiders {used: 5} D - a phial of floods J - a sack of spiders N - a lamp of fire Comestibles d - 23 meat rations g - 10 slices of pizza l - a royal jelly A - 13 beef jerkies Skills: + Level 16.3 Fighting + Level 20.6 Dodging - Level 11.6 Stealth - Level 1.6 Unarmed Combat - Level 19.2 Spellcasting - Level 17.5 Conjurations Level 3.7 Hexes Level 0.8 Summonings - Level 14.5 Translocations Level 7.6 Fire Magic - Level 8.5 Ice Magic - Level 7.2 Air Magic - Level 15.6 Earth Magic - Level 7.4 Poison Magic - Level 13.8 Evocations You have one spell level left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Sandblast Erth ###### 0% 1 None b - Blink Tloc N/A 0% 2 None c - Passage of Golubria Tloc N/A 1% 4 None d - Freezing Cloud Conj/Ice/Air ######.... 1% 6 ###.... e - Poison Arrow Conj/Pois ######.... 1% 6 ###.... f - Passwall Trmt/Erth ######.... 1% 3 None g - Stoneskin Trmt/Erth ######.. 1% 2 None h - Lee's Rapid Deconstr Erth #######... 1% 5 None i - Controlled Blink Tloc N/A 6% 7 #####.. j - Orb of Destruction Conj #######... 1% 7 #####.. k - Swiftness Chrm/Air #####... 1% 2 None l - Shroud of Golubria Chrm/Tloc ######.... 1% 2 None m - Repel Missiles Chrm/Air #####. 1% 2 None n - Lehudib's Crystal Sp Conj/Erth #######... 4% 8 ######. o - Apportation Tloc #######... 0% 1 None r - Regeneration Chrm/Necr ###....... 10% 3 None Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (15/15) Temple (0/1) D:7 Lair (8/8) D:10 Shoals (4/4) Lair:3 Snake (4/4) Lair:6 Slime (0/6) Lair:7 Orc (4/4) D:10 Elf (3/3) Orc:4 Vaults (4/5) D:14 Crypt (0/3) Vaults:2 Depths (5/5) D:15 Zot (4/5) Depths:5 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Dithmenos Elyvilon Fedhas Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Vehumet Xom Yredelemnul Beogh Jiyva Shops: D:4 [ D:12 } D:13 : Orc:2 * Orc:4 *(%*} Shoals:1 : Shoals:3 ! Shoals:4 % Snake:4 = Vaults:2 [ Depths:4 * Portals: Hell: Lair:8 Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5 Abyss: Depths:5 Pandemonium: Depths:3 Depths:4 Ziggurat: Depths:2 Annotations: D:5 1 exclusion D:7 Ned's ghost, experienced MiGl Lair:5 exclusion: oklob plant Shoals:1 fcloud Elf:2 3 runed doors Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You cannot wear armour. You are incapable of wielding weapons or throwing items. You have sharp claws. You have razor-sharp teeth. You have supernaturally acute eyesight. You are carnivorous and can eat meat at any time. You cover ground quickly. Your thick and shaggy fur keeps you warm (AC +3, rC+). You have a slow metabolism. Your sharp claws are effective at attacking unaware monsters. You have a pair of small horns on your head. You can breathe flames. Message History The black draconian is engulfed in freezing vapours. The mottled draconian is engulfed in freezing vapours. Unknown command. There is an open door here. Unknown command. Unknown command. Your skin is crawling a little less now. Unknown command. Casting: Shroud of Golubria Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Freezing Cloud Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor That beam is likely to hit you. Continue anyway? You are engulfed in freezing vapours. You resist. The purple draconian knight seems to slow down. The purple draconian knight casts a spell. The purple draconian knight flickers and vanishes for a moment. Unknown command. The purple draconian knight is engulfed in freezing vapours. Unknown command. Unknown command. The purple draconian knight seems to slow down. Unknown command. Your skin stops crawling. The purple draconian knight is engulfed in freezing vapours. Unknown command. The purple draconian knight seems to slow down. Unknown command. Casting: Freezing Cloud Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Freezing Cloud Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor The purple draconian knight gestures wildly while chanting. The purple draconian knight seems to speed up. Unknown command. The purple draconian knight is engulfed in freezing vapours. Unknown command. The purple draconian knight seems to slow down. Unknown command. Casting: Freezing Cloud Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - purple draconian knight Aim: a purple draconian knight, wielding a great mace of protection and wearing a cloak (freezing vapour, heavily wounded, fast+slow, slightly transparent, covered in an icy film) You miscast Lehudib's Crystal Spear. You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic. Sparks fly from your paws! The purple draconian knight is engulfed in freezing vapours. Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - purple draconian knight Aim: a purple draconian knight, wielding a great mace of protection and wearing a cloak (heavily wounded, fast+slow, slightly transparent, covered in an icy film) The crystal spear misses the purple draconian knight. Press: ? - help, v - describe, . - travel Here: a purple draconian knight, wielding a great mace of protection and wearing a cloak (heavily wounded, fast+slow, slightly transparent, covered in an icy film) The floor. Unknown command. Unknown command. There is an open door here. Unknown command. The purple draconian knight gestures at you while chanting. The shard of ice is repelled. Unknown command. Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - purple draconian knight Aim: a purple draconian knight, wielding a great mace of protection and wearing a cloak (heavily wounded, fast+slow, slightly transparent, covered in an icy film) The crystal spear hits the purple draconian knight. You kill the purple draconian knight! Vehumet accepts your kill. You feel your power returning. Things that are here: a great mace of protection; a cloak Unknown command. There is an open door here. Your skin feels tender. There is a stone staircase leading up here. Unknown command. You start resting. HP restored. Unknown command. You start resting. Your shroud begins to fray at the edges. Unknown command. You start resting. Your shroud unravels. Unknown command. You start resting. Your magical contamination has completely faded away. Unknown command. You start resting. Unknown command. Unknown command. Unknown command. Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - white draconian Aim: a white draconian, wielding a scimitar The crystal spear hits the white draconian. The white draconian is severely wounded. The white draconian breathes frost at you. The chilling blast misses you. Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - white draconian Aim: a white draconian, wielding a scimitar (severely wounded, catching its breath) The crystal spear hits the white draconian. You kill the white draconian! Vehumet accepts your kill. You feel your power returning. You are feeling hungry. Unknown command. There is a stone staircase leading up here. Unknown command. Eat which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit) Okay, then. Unknown command. You climb upwards. There is a stone staircase leading down here. Unknown command. Unknown command. You start resting. Unknown command. Eat which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit) Okay, then. Unknown command. Unknown command. You climb downwards. There is a stone staircase leading up here. Unknown command. Unknown command. Unknown command. Unknown command. Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. You can't see any susceptible monsters within range! (Use Z to cast anyway.) Unknown command. Unknown command. Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. You can't see any susceptible monsters within range! (Use Z to cast anyway.) Unknown command. Unknown command. There is an open door, spattered with blood here. Things that are here: a scimitar; a white draconian corpse Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - mottled draconian Aim: a mottled draconian, wielding a trident (hasn't noticed you) The crystal spear misses the mottled draconian. The mottled draconian roars! You are feeling very hungry. The mottled draconian spits sticky flame at you. The splash of liquid fire misses you. Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - mottled draconian Aim: a mottled draconian, wielding a trident (catching its breath) The crystal spear hits the mottled draconian. The mottled draconian is severely wounded. You are near starving! Casting: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Aiming: Lehudib's Crystal Spear Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - mottled draconian Aim: a mottled draconian, wielding a trident (severely wounded, catching its breath) The crystal spear hits the mottled draconian. You kill the mottled draconian! Vehumet accepts your kill. You see here a trident. Unknown command. Eat which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit) Okay, then. Unknown command. There is an open door, spattered with blood here. Things that are here: a scimitar; a white draconian corpse Unknown command. You butcher the white draconian corpse. t - 4 chunks of flesh There is an open door, spattered with blood here. Things that are here: a scimitar; a white draconian skeleton Eating one of 4 chunks of flesh. This raw flesh tastes great. You are feeling hungry. You continue eating. x2 You are feeling very hungry. Eating one of 3 chunks of flesh. This raw flesh tastes great. You continue eating. x2 Eating one of 2 chunks of flesh. This raw flesh tastes great. You continue eating. x2 Eating a chunk of flesh. This raw flesh tastes great. You continue eating. x2 ,,,* #......♣ ♣§# **,* #......♣ ♣.# *,* #......♣♣♣♣)# *,* #...........# *,* #...........# **,* #...........# ,,,* #...........# **,* #..<........# *,* #...@.......# #.* #...........# *#§* #...........# d§d* #...........# *#q* ####)#......# #d* #..+......# #§*###########.##......# ##§##§.......##.##..$...# ..§§§§§.d....##.##......# There are no monsters in sight! Vanquished Creatures Sojobo (Depths:2) Margery (Depths:5) Norris (Depths:2) Saint Roka (Elf:3) A curse toe (Zot:1) 4 golden dragons Jorgrun (Depths:2) 6 tentacled monstrosities Asterion (Elf:3) 4 liches A titan (Depths:2) 2 deep elf master archers (Elf:3) A kraken (Shoals:4) 2 sphinxes 3 octopode crushers Gastronok (Lair:2) 6 tentacled starspawn 2 shadow dragons (Depths:4) 7 greater nagas 5 draconian monks Roxanne (Elf:3) 8 storm dragons 4 frost giants 6 tengu reavers Ilsuiw (Shoals:4) A ghost moth (Zot:2) An iron dragon (Depths:4) 5 draconian knights 10 deep elf sorcerers Maud (Lair:7) 3 draconian scorchers An orc warlord (Vaults:3) 6 vault wardens Aizul (Shoals:3) 11 fire giants 4 draconian zealots 17 stone giants 8 ironheart preservers 4 draconian annihilators 4 draconian shifters A spriggan defender (Depths:4) 3 draconian callers 3 vampire knights 7 very ugly things Nessos (D:14) 7 green draconians 4 black draconians 5 deep elf demonologists 7 purple draconians The ghost of Bravepunisher the Grappler, a powerful TrMo of Okawaru (Orc:4) 7 yellow draconians 6 red draconians 3 white draconians 6 deep elf annihilators (Elf:3) 8 mottled draconians 11 ettins 2 jiangshi (Depths:3) 4 deep elf death magi Snorg (Orc:2) 6 merfolk javelineers 4 deep elf high priests (Elf:3) 19 fire dragons 4 vault guards (D:14) 5 merfolk impalers 19 yaktaur captains Josephine (Lair:8) 6 entropy weavers 3 death cobs 10 great orbs of eyes 13 hydras 16 naga warriors A caustic shrike simulacrum (Depths:3) 15 ice dragons A spriggan air mage (Depths:4) 3 rakshasas 21 centaur warriors 18 anacondas 10 ogre magi 5 alligator snapping turtles An alligator (Shoals:3) 4 catoblepae A dancing weapon (Elf:2) 7 merfolk avatars A satyr (Shoals:4) 2 vampire magi 2 merfolk aquamancers (Shoals:4) 9 deep troll shamans 10 deep troll earth magi A queen ant (D:12) 23 death yaks 2 thrashing horrors 18 naga sharpshooters 3 small abominations 6 spriggan berserkers 15 deep elf knights 7 shock serpents Urug (D:12) 10 tengu warriors 4 orc high priests A sun demon (Lair:8) Sonja (D:10) Nergalle (Lair:2) 2 shadow wraiths 2 wretched stars (Abyss:3) 6 fire crabs A death drake (Depths:3) 3 salamander mystics A spatial maelstrom (Abyss:3) 6 hell knights 2 iron trolls 9 sea snakes 4 lindwurms (Depths:3) A fire crab (shapeshifter) (Depths:2) 5 skeletal warriors (D:14) 14 naga ritualists 3 giant orange brains 3 flayed ghosts 12 ironbrand convokers 11 deep elf summoners A shadow demon (Depths:3) A golden dragon zombie (Depths:1) An infernal demonspawn (Depths:4) 4 unseen horrors An ice statue (IceCv) 2 ice devils 9 hill giants Pikel (D:6) 7 necromancers 3 phantasmal warriors A wolf spider zombie (D:14) 16 orc knights The ghost of ossan the Blocker, an experienced FoFi of Okawaru (D:6) A tengu zombie (Depths:2) 12 deep elf conjurers 11 wizards 2 wolf spiders 11 manticores A gelid demonspawn (Depths:3) 25 deep trolls A putrid demonspawn (Depths:4) 12 mana vipers 17 harpies An oklob plant (Depths:3) 4 water nymphs 8 fauns 19 salamanders A stone giant zombie (Depths:2) A worldbinder (Abyss:1) 32 naga magi 9 orc sorcerers A guardian serpent (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3) 14 moths of wrath 6 cyclopes 2 sixfirhies 36 ugly things 14 griffons A cyclops (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4) 10 sirens Maurice (D:13) 10 elephants (Lair:6) 55 black mambas A rust devil (Depths:4) 11 spiny frogs 13 vault sentinels A gargoyle (D:10) 5 guardian serpents 4 torpor snails 2 orange demons (Lair:8) A spriggan skeleton (Depths:1) A human zombie (Vaults:1) 2 kobold demonologists 2 hellions (Zot:3) 7 tengu conjurers A tormentor (Depths:4) 10 komodo dragons 6 fire drakes 2 harpy zombies 4 efreet 2 hellwings A jumping spider (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2) 2 human skeletons 14 freezing wraiths 72 yaktaurs A polar bear (shapeshifter) (Vaults:1) 4 red devils 9 deep elf priests An ancient zyme (Abyss:3) 10 raiju 6 trolls 28 merfolk 2 jumping spiders (Depths:4) 7 boulder beetles 2 blue devils A wind drake (Shoals:3) 16 two-headed ogres A sphinx simulacrum (Depths:3) A raiju (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3) 40 slime creatures 2 spriggan zombies A wind drake (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 40 blink frogs 2 blink frogs (shapeshifter) A snapping turtle (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 8 wraiths 11 snapping turtles A tarantella (shapeshifter) (Depths:4) A fire giant simulacrum (Vaults:1) 16 redbacks A fire dragon skeleton (Depths:1) 3 ynoxinuls 2 tarantellas 4 wyverns A spriggan (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2) 28 deep elf magi A spriggan (D:10) 4 basilisks (shapeshifter) 19 deep elf fighters 5 basilisks 2 elf zombies 2 air elementals (Depths:4) A fire bat (Shoals:2) 55 yaks 3 hogs 13 water elementals 3 hungry ghosts A hog (shapeshifter) (Elf:2) A neqoxec (Abyss:2) 21 hippogriffs 25 vampire mosquitoes 2 wargs (D:15) A steam dragon (Lair:5) 4 mottled dragons 14 wolves 61 nagas 3 large abominations A soldier ant (shapeshifter) (Elf:2) 21 soldier ants 18 water moccasins Duvessa (D:6) 8 spiders (Depths:1) 2 eyes of draining 15 porcupines 2 swamp drakes (Depths:3) 4 hell hounds (Lair:8) 10 ice beasts A necrophage (D:11) 3 slaves (D:6) 5 sky beasts A black bear (shapeshifter) (D:12) 47 orc warriors 3 phantoms An alligator simulacrum (IceCv) 12 black bears 32 ogres 31 centaurs 5 boggarts 23 crocodiles 2 wasps (D:13) 4 big kobolds 23 giant frogs A brain worm (D:15) 10 scorpions 3 elephant simulacra (IceCv) 6 killer bees (D:13) 8 wights (D:15) 8 crimson imps 6 centaur zombies 11 electric eels 5 draconian simulacra (IceCv) 9 hounds 17 jellies 2 giant frog skeletons 4 gnoll shamans (D:8) 3 giant frog zombies 4 quasits Ijyb (D:3) 6 centaur skeletons 45 orc wizards Natasha (thrice) (D:3) 32 orc priests 3 spriggan simulacra (IceCv) 34 worker ants 6 troll simulacra (IceCv) 16 iguanas 41 sheep A centaur simulacrum (IceCv) A hound zombie (D:6) 3 hound skeletons A worker ant zombie (D:8) 4 ogre simulacra (IceCv) 6 gnolls 89 river rats A naga simulacrum (IceCv) 15 adders 8 shadow imps 27 white imps 4 ufetubi (Depths:4) 3 oozes 2 adder zombies (D:6) 2 worms 3 giant geckos 208 orcs 14 bats 4 giant cockroaches 14 hobgoblins 15 jackals 19 kobolds 8 quokkas 6 ball pythons 2 giant cockroach zombies A giant gecko skeleton (D:5) 2 giant gecko zombies 2 giant newts 17 goblins A jackal zombie (D:6) 2 quokka skeletons A quokka zombie (D:8) 21 rats A butterfly (Lair:6) 2 crawling corpses (Elf:1) 2 fulminant prisms (D:8) 4 fungi 4 lurking horrors 15 plants A starspawn tentacle (Abyss:3) 2 starspawn tentacle segments (Abyss:3) 2749 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills) A green draconian (Zot:4) 2 deep troll shamans (Depths:5) 2 deep trolls (Depths:5) A necromancer (Depths:5) A slave (D:6) Dowan (D:6) 2 orc wizards A hound (D:4) A worker ant (D:4) An orc (D:6) A goblin (D:3) 14 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (others) A tengu reaver (Depths:5) An unseen horror (Vaults:1) An ugly thing (Depths:3) A swamp worm (shapeshifter) (Depths:1) 2 ogres (Vaults:3) 2 small abominations (Abyss:3) An orc priest (Orc:4) An ufetubus (Abyss:1) 2 bushes A butterfly (Zot:4) 185 fulminant prisms 56 fungi 77 plants 17 starspawn tentacles 273 starspawn tentacle segments 10 tentacles (Shoals:4) 69 tentacle segments (Shoals:4) 700 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 3463 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------------------------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | hyperborean the Felid Wanderer began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | hyperborean set off with: a book of Minor Magic, a potion of curing, a wand of random effects (15), a meat ration 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 7/7 MP: 4/4 2 | D:1 | Learned a level 1 spell: Magic Dart 469 | D:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Unarmed Combat 543 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 9/11 MP: 3/6 619 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink 622 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Call Imp 1616 | D:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations 1778 | D:1 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 14/14 MP: 1/7 1939 | D:2 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon. 1939 | D:2 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha. 1940 | D:2 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet. 1957 | D:2 | Became a worshipper of Vehumet 2282 | D:2 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 2925 | D:3 | Reached skill level 2 in Conjurations 3571 | D:3 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 18/18 MP: 1/8 3810 | D:3 | Acquired Vehumet's first power 3810 | D:3 | Offered knowledge of Sandblast by Vehumet. 4212 | D:3 | Noticed Natasha 4215 | D:3 | Killed Natasha 4215 | D:3 | Reached skill level 3 in Conjurations 4519 | D:3 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 19/21 MP: 3/10 4879 | D:3 | Reached skill level 3 in Spellcasting 5271 | D:3 | Noticed Natasha 5304 | D:3 | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame 5696 | D:4 | Noticed a phantom 5712 | D:4 | Learned a level 1 spell: Sandblast 6793 | D:4 | Found Quode's Armour Shoppe. 7521 | D:4 | Gained mutation: You are covered in thick fur (AC +2). [Felid growth] 7521 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 20/24 MP: 4/12 7580 | D:4 | Reached skill level 4 in Conjurations 7939 | D:4 | Reached skill level 4 in Spellcasting 8020 | D:4 | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles 8160 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 8364 | D:5 | Offered knowledge of Throw Frost by Vehumet. 8441 | D:5 | Found an iron altar of Okawaru. 8750 | D:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic 8750 | D:5 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 27/27 MP: 9/14 8859 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations 8859 | D:5 | Reached skill level 2 in Fire Magic 9779 | D:6 | Noticed a deep elf mage 9803 | D:6 | Noticed Duvessa 9803 | D:6 | Noticed Dowan 9826 | D:6 | Killed Duvessa 9826 | D:6 | Reached skill level 3 in Fire Magic 10051 | D:6 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha. 10212 | D:6 | Reached skill level 2 in Dodging 10212 | D:6 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 29/31 MP: 3/15 10350 | D:6 | Offered knowledge of Static Discharge by Vehumet. 10350 | D:6 | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting 10470 | D:6 | Killed Dowan 10698 | D:6 | Reached skill level 3 in Dodging 10725 | D:6 | Noticed ossan's ghost (experienced FoFi) 10811 | D:6 | Reached skill level 4 in Dodging 10959 | D:5 | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud 11103 | D:6 | Killed ossan's ghost 11103 | D:6 | Reached skill level 3 in Fighting 11103 | D:6 | Reached skill level 6 in Dodging 11388 | D:6 | Killed a deep elf mage 11388 | D:6 | Reached skill level 7 in Dodging 11517 | D:6 | Acquired Vehumet's second power 11987 | D:6 | Reached skill level 4 in Fighting 11987 | D:6 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 27/39 MP: 2/16 12069 | D:6 | Reached skill level 8 in Dodging 12495 | D:6 | Noticed Pikel 12751 | D:6 | Killed Pikel 12751 | D:6 | Reached skill level 9 in Dodging 13012 | D:7 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting 13178 | D:7 | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos. 13179 | D:7 | Noticed a cyclops 13218 | D:7 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 13447 | D:7 | Noticed Ned's ghost (experienced MiGl) 13489 | D:6 | Offered knowledge of Fulminant Prism by Vehumet. 13841 | D:7 | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting 14227 | D:7 | Learned a level 4 spell: Fulminant Prism 14353 | D:7 | Killed a cyclops 14353 | D:7 | Reached skill level 2 in Hexes 14353 | D:7 | Reached skill level 3 in Earth Magic 14611 | D:8 | Reached skill level 3 in Hexes 14824 | D:7 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 42/44 MP: 4/19 15095 | D:8 | Reached skill level 4 in Earth Magic 15714 | D:8 | Noticed a manticore 15723 | D:8 | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic 15734 | D:8 | Killed a manticore 15734 | D:8 | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting 16047 | D:8 | Acquired Vehumet's third power 16112 | D:8 | Reached skill level 6 in Earth Magic 17425 | D:8 | Reached skill level 7 in Earth Magic 17581 | D:8 | Offered knowledge of Lee's Rapid Deconstruction by Vehumet. 17723 | D:8 | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting 18080 | D:8 | Reached XP level 11. HP: 48/48 MP: 3/22 18197 | D:8 | Reached skill level 8 in Earth Magic 18493 | D:8 | Identified the Almanac of the End 18529 | D:8 | Learned a level 5 spell: Lee's Rapid Deconstruction 18736 | D:8 | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari. 20648 | D:9 | Reached skill level 9 in Earth Magic 21123 | D:9 | Offered knowledge of Spellforged Servitor by Vehumet. 21131 | D:9 | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting 21838 | D:10 | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon 21867 | D:10 | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines. 22167 | D:10 | Noticed Sonja 22180 | D:10 | Killed Sonja 22388 | D:10 | Reached skill level 10 in Earth Magic 23254 | D:10 | Found a staircase to the Lair. 23331 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 23348 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 23613 | Lair:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts 24074 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting 24450 | Lair:1 | Gained mutation: Your thick and shaggy fur keeps you warm (AC +3, rC+). [Felid growth] 24450 | Lair:1 | Reached XP level 12. HP: 51/51 MP: 21/26 24837 | Lair:1 | Learned a level 5 spell: Bolt of Magma 26237 | Lair:2 | Noticed Gastronok 26577 | Lair:2 | Noticed Nergalle 26640 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting 26728 | Lair:2 | Killed Nergalle 27189 | Lair:2 | Noticed a seven-headed hydra 27240 | Lair:2 | Killed a seven-headed hydra 27679 | Lair:3 | Noticed an eight-headed hydra 27752 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 6 in Conjurations 27974 | Lair:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging 28163 | Lair:3 | Offered knowledge of Venom Bolt by Vehumet. 28236 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 11 in Spellcasting 29014 | Lair:3 | Killed an eight-headed hydra 29109 | Lair:3 | Found a staircase to the Shoals. 29118 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 7 in Conjurations 29430 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 4 in Fire Magic 29874 | Lair:4 | Learned a level 6 spell: Iron Shot 29956 | Lair:4 | Reached skill level 11 in Earth Magic 30182 | Lair:4 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados. 30393 | Lair:4 | Reached XP level 13. HP: 55/55 MP: 24/29 30575 | Lair:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Fighting 31215 | Lair:4 | Gained mutation: You can breathe flames. [potion of beneficial mutation] 31736 | Lair:5 | Upgraded the game from 0.17-a0-1596-g1e86911 to 0.17-a0-1617-gfba1302 31744 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 8 in Conjurations 31901 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 11 in Dodging 31903 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic 32552 | Lair:5 | HP: 2/56 [blink frog (19)] 33298 | Lair:6 | Offered knowledge of Freezing Cloud by Vehumet. 33905 | Lair:6 | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit. 33963 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 7 in Fighting 34209 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 9 in Conjurations 34683 | Lair:6 | Reached XP level 14. HP: 61/61 MP: 5/30 34883 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 6 in Fire Magic 35171 | Lair:7 | Noticed Maud 35469 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 12 in Dodging 35724 | Lair:7 | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva. 35725 | Lair:7 | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits. 35866 | Lair:7 | Identified 3 scrolls of acquirement 35932 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 2 in Stealth 36181 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 3 in Stealth 36248 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 12 in Spellcasting 37253 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 8 in Fighting 37341 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 4 in Stealth 37341 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 12 in Earth Magic 38034 | Lair:7 | Killed Maud 38076 | Lair:8 | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts 38116 | Lair:8 | Offered knowledge of Delayed Fireball by Vehumet. 38400 | Lair:8 | Noticed Josephine 38406 | Lair:8 | Killed Josephine 38406 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth 38722 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 7 in Fire Magic 39373 | Lair:8 | Reached XP level 15. HP: 67/67 MP: 19/32 39643 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 13 in Dodging 39917 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations 40193 | Lair:8 | Found a burning altar of Makhleb. 40592 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 9 in Fighting 40730 | Lair:8 | Reached skill level 6 in Stealth 40892 | Lair:8 | Found a gateway to Hell. 41351 | Lair:2 | Killed Gastronok 41736 | D:3 | Noticed Ijyb 41746 | D:3 | Killed Ijyb 42054 | D:3 | Killed Natasha 42054 | D:3 | Offered knowledge of Poisonous Cloud by Vehumet. 42065 | D:3 | Learned a level 6 spell: Poisonous Cloud 42219 | D:3 | Noticed Natasha 42224 | D:3 | Killed Natasha 42529 | D:11 | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic 43065 | D:11 | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic 43473 | D:11 | Reached skill level 2 in Poison Magic 43762 | D:12 | Reached skill level 2 in Air Magic 43946 | D:12 | Reached skill level 3 in Poison Magic 44090 | D:12 | Reached skill level 3 in Air Magic 44875 | D:12 | Found Toji Ilo's Gadget Shoppe. 44928 | D:12 | Noticed Urug 44934 | D:12 | Killed Urug 45558 | Orc:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines 45703 | Orc:2 | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Cold by Vehumet. 45790 | Orc:2 | You fall through a shaft! 45968 | Orc:3 | Reached skill level 4 in Poison Magic 46169 | Orc:3 | Reached skill level 4 in Air Magic 46676 | Orc:2 | Noticed Snorg 46699 | Orc:2 | Killed Snorg 46878 | Orc:2 | Found Lihasem's Off-Brand Ammunition. 47385 | Orc:1 | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh. 47387 | Orc:1 | Offered knowledge of Poison Arrow by Vehumet. 47667 | Orc:1 | Found a runed door. 47867 | Orc:1 | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh. 47976 | Orc:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines 48100 | Orc:4 | Noticed Bravepunisher's ghost (powerful TrMo) 48287 | Orc:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Poison Magic 48433 | Orc:4 | Found Foblugab's Gadget Shoppe. 48536 | Orc:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Air Magic 49064 | Orc:4 | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls. 49441 | Orc:4 | Found Kohauk's Assorted Antiques. 49441 | Orc:4 | Found Big Dyps's Antique Weapon Shoppe. 49443 | Orc:4 | Found Luycao's Food Shop. 49443 | Orc:4 | Found Kefoarim's Assorted Antiques. 49449 | Orc:4 | Bought a scroll labeled SOIRUQUCIS for 32 gold pieces 49449 | Orc:4 | Bought a lumpy pink potion for 28 gold pieces 49454 | Orc:4 | Bought a sapphire potion for 28 gold pieces 49462 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of magic for 256 gold pieces 49471 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of brilliance for 128 gold pieces 49471 | Orc:4 | Bought a leatherbound book for 480 gold pieces 49672 | Orc:4 | Killed Bravepunisher's ghost 49672 | Orc:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Poison Magic 50057 | D:13 | Reached skill level 6 in Air Magic 50256 | D:13 | Reached XP level 16. HP: 72/72 MP: 18/33 50476 | D:13 | Noticed Maurice 50479 | D:13 | Killed Maurice 50907 | D:13 | Found Ybamust's Book Boutique. 50944 | D:13 | Learned a level 6 spell: Poison Arrow 51676 | D:13 | Reached skill level 7 in Poison Magic 51981 | D:13 | Reached skill level 7 in Air Magic 52224 | D:14 | Noticed Nessos 52241 | D:14 | Killed Nessos 52270 | D:14 | Found a frozen archway. 52399 | IceCv | Entered an ice cave 52402 | IceCv | Offered knowledge of Lehudib's Crystal Spear by Vehumet. 52402 | IceCv | Offered knowledge of Fire Storm by Vehumet. 52402 | IceCv | Offered knowledge of Chain Lightning by Vehumet. 53048 | IceCv | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha. 53516 | D:14 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon. 53586 | D:14 | Found a gate to the Vaults. 53613 | D:14 | Reached skill level 13 in Spellcasting 54975 | D:14 | Learned a level 2 spell: Stoneskin 54977 | D:15 | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon 54984 | D:15 | Reached skill level 14 in Spellcasting 55256 | D:15 | Found a staircase to the Depths. 56644 | D:15 | Learned a level 2 spell: Swiftness 57165 | Shoals:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Shoals 57861 | Shoals:1 | Found Wuused's Book Shop. 57864 | Shoals:1 | Bought a book of Clouds for 585 gold pieces 58286 | Shoals:2 | Reached skill level 2 in Evocations 58529 | Shoals:2 | Reached XP level 17. HP: 75/75 MP: 17/36 58745 | Shoals:2 | Reached skill level 3 in Evocations 59180 | Shoals:2 | Reached skill level 4 in Evocations 59401 | Shoals:2 | Reached skill level 11 in Conjurations 59815 | Shoals:3 | Found Nimu Pedgh's Distillery. 59828 | Shoals:3 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces 59828 | Shoals:3 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces 59828 | Shoals:3 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces 59828 | Shoals:3 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces 59830 | Shoals:3 | Bought 2 potions of brilliance for 128 gold pieces 59855 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting 60060 | Shoals:3 | Noticed Aizul 60348 | Shoals:1 | Learned a level 6 spell: Freezing Cloud 60390 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 2 in Ice Magic 60616 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 3 in Ice Magic 60738 | Shoals:3 | Killed Aizul 60738 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 4 in Ice Magic 60896 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic 61256 | Shoals:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Shoals 61359 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Ice Magic 61503 | Shoals:4 | Noticed Ilsuiw 61952 | Shoals:4 | Found Hynifoh's Food Boutique. 61962 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations 62139 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 7 in Ice Magic 62418 | Shoals:4 | Killed Ilsuiw 63091 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 8 in Ice Magic 63106 | Shoals:4 | Got a barnacled rune of Zot 63626 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 6 in Evocations 64132 | Snake:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Snake Pit 64209 | Snake:1 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul. 64491 | Snake:1 | Reached skill level 14 in Dodging 64757 | Snake:1 | Reached XP level 18. HP: 80/80 MP: 21/38 64939 | Snake:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting 65623 | Snake:1 | Reached skill level 12 in Conjurations 65932 | Snake:1 | Reached skill level 7 in Evocations 66612 | D:13 | Bought a book of Power for 495 gold pieces 66620 | D:13 | Learned a level 7 spell: Orb of Destruction 66940 | Snake:1 | You fall through a shaft! 68557 | Snake:3 | Reached skill level 13 in Conjurations 70003 | Snake:3 | Reached skill level 14 in Conjurations 71125 | Snake:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Snake Pit 71780 | Snake:4 | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh. 71902 | Snake:4 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 58/85 MP: 34/39 72126 | Snake:4 | Found Honius's Jewellery Boutique. 72134 | Snake:4 | Bought the ring "Coellioku" {SustAt rC+ Int+4} for 718 gold pieces 72962 | Snake:4 | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging 72998 | Snake:4 | Reached skill level 8 in Evocations 73687 | Snake:4 | Reached skill level 11 in Fighting 74350 | Snake:4 | Got a serpentine rune of Zot 75363 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults 75630 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 15 in Conjurations 75907 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 9 in Evocations 77439 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 16 in Dodging 77864 | Vaults:2 | Reached XP level 20. HP: 91/91 MP: 16/40 77900 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 12 in Fighting 78079 | Vaults:2 | Found Finig Zamu's Antique Armour Shoppe. 78171 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt. 78171 | Vaults:2 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul. 78186 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Evocations 78284 | Vaults:2 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha. 80082 | Shoals:1 | Bought a book of Battle for 520 gold pieces 80086 | Shoals:1 | Learned a level 3 spell: Regeneration 80633 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 16 in Spellcasting 82305 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 11 in Evocations 82943 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 17 in Dodging 83539 | Shoals:3 | Bought a potion of curing for 48 gold pieces 83842 | D:12 | Bought a phial of floods for 560 gold pieces 83842 | D:12 | Bought a lamp of fire for 560 gold pieces 84469 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 13 in Fighting 85333 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 16 in Conjurations 85353 | Vaults:4 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 77/97 MP: 22/42 85667 | Vaults:4 | Got a crude tin ring 86226 | Elf:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls 86231 | Elf:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Shroud of Golubria 86278 | Elf:1 | Found a flickering gateway to a bazaar. 86306 | Elf:1 | Identified the ring of Ashenzari's Esteem {rC++ rN+ Dex+5} (You took it off an orc on level 4 of the Vaults) 86319 | Bazaar | Entered a bazaar 86323 | Bazaar | Found Efiriuv's Jewellery Boutique. 86348 | Bazaar | Found Etruik's Antique Weapon Shoppe. 86365 | Bazaar | Found Bodub's Gadget Boutique. 86382 | Bazaar | Found Goseynt's Antique Armour Emporium. 86415 | Bazaar | Bought a box of beasts for 300 gold pieces 86791 | Elf:1 | Identified Lehudib's Disquisition on Attacks and the Arsonist (You found it on level 1 of the Elven Halls) 86843 | Elf:1 | Reached skill level 12 in Evocations 88002 | Elf:2 | Found a runed gate. 88002 | Elf:2 | Found a runed gate. 88002 | Elf:2 | Found a runed gate. 88077 | Elf:3 | Entered Level 3 of the Elven Halls 88079 | Elf:3 | Noticed Saint Roka 88090 | Elf:3 | Killed Saint Roka 88104 | Elf:3 | Reached skill level 7 in Stealth 88304 | Elf:3 | Noticed Asterion 88307 | Elf:3 | Killed Asterion 88455 | Elf:3 | Noticed Roxanne 88459 | Elf:3 | Killed Roxanne 88963 | Elf:3 | Cast into the Abyss (a deep elf sorcerer) 89190 | Abyss:1 | Noticed an ancient lich 89241 | Abyss:1 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu. 89440 | Elf:3 | Escaped the Abyss 89750 | Elf:3 | Reached skill level 13 in Earth Magic 89968 | Elf:3 | Reached skill level 8 in Stealth 90433 | Elf:3 | Reached skill level 18 in Dodging 90463 | Elf:3 | Got a brightly glowing jade amulet 90474 | Elf:3 | Identified the amulet "Zyesmu" {Faith rElec} (You took it off a deep elf sorcerer on level 3 of the Elven Halls) 90519 | Elf:3 | Got a coiled ivory ring 90522 | Elf:3 | Identified the ring of Incredulity {+Blink rElec rPois Stlth+} (You took it off a deep elf conjurer on level 3 of the Elven Halls) 90569 | Elf:3 | Identified the Almanac of Transformation 90727 | Elf:3 | Got a crude glass ring 90729 | Elf:3 | Identified the cursed ring of the Monkey {rN++ Int-3 Dex+2} (You took it off a deep elf sorcerer on level 3 of the Elven Halls) 91322 | Depths:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Depths 91706 | Depths:2 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat. 91708 | Depths:2 | Noticed Jorgrun 91779 | Depths:2 | Killed Jorgrun 91977 | Depths:2 | Noticed Sojobo 92206 | Depths:2 | Reached XP level 22. HP: 102/102 MP: 35/43 92428 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 9 in Stealth 92759 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 14 in Fighting 92931 | Depths:2 | Noticed Norris 93020 | Depths:2 | Killed Norris 93592 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 13 in Evocations 94476 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 17 in Spellcasting 95357 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Stealth 96216 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 14 in Earth Magic 96634 | Depths:2 | Killed Sojobo 97192 | Depths:3 | Got a shimmering turquoise ring 97194 | Depths:3 | Identified the ring of the Chupacabra {Dex+3 Stlth-} (You found it on level 3 of the Depths) 97649 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 11 in Stealth 98302 | Depths:3 | Reached XP level 23. HP: 107/107 MP: 19/45 98466 | Depths:3 | Upgraded the game from 0.17-a0-1617-gfba1302 to 0.17-a0-1625-g47e540b 99051 | Depths:3 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium. 99617 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 17 in Conjurations 100829 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 19 in Dodging 101370 | Depths:4 | Found Kihu's General Store. 101375 | Depths:4 | Bought a scroll of acquirement for 728 gold pieces 101375 | Depths:4 | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 49 gold pieces 101375 | Depths:4 | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 49 gold pieces 101445 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting 101738 | Depths:4 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 102454 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 15 in Earth Magic 103355 | Depths:4 | Identified Siengecu's Catalogue of the Tick (You found it on level 4 of the Depths) 103468 | Depths:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Depths 104540 | Depths:5 | Noticed Margery 104559 | Depths:5 | Killed Margery 104612 | Depths:5 | Reached XP level 24. HP: 58/113 MP: 0/45 105237 | Depths:5 | Reached skill level 18 in Spellcasting 105913 | Depths:5 | Found a gate to the Realm of Zot. 106083 | Depths:5 | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss. 106810 | Depths:5 | Learned a level 8 spell: Lehudib's Crystal Spear 106906 | Depths:5 | Gained mutation: You have a pair of small horns on your head. [potion of beneficial mutation] 106910 | Depths:5 | Voluntarily entered the Abyss. 107407 | Depths:5 | Escaped the Abyss 107840 | Orc:4 | Bought a wand of teleportation (5) for 432 gold pieces 108223 | Depths:5 | Voluntarily entered the Abyss. 108890 | Abyss:3 | Reached skill level 19 in Spellcasting 108891 | Abyss:3 | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog. 108912 | Abyss:3 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu. 108972 | Abyss:3 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu. 109079 | Abyss:3 | Learned a level 1 spell: Apportation 109444 | Abyss:3 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna. 109500 | Abyss:3 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu. 109505 | Abyss:3 | Got an abyssal rune of Zot 109669 | Abyss:3 | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu. 109712 | Depths:5 | Escaped the Abyss 109868 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations 110363 | D:15 | Learned a level 4 spell: Passage of Golubria 110367 | D:15 | Learned a level 3 spell: Passwall 110537 | Zot:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Realm of Zot 110599 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 6 in Translocations 110875 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 7 in Translocations 110985 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 8 in Translocations 111280 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 9 in Translocations 111503 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Translocations 111829 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 11 in Translocations 112425 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 12 in Translocations 112639 | Zot:1 | Reached skill level 13 in Translocations 113722 | Elf:3 | Learned a level 7 spell: Controlled Blink 114349 | Zot:2 | Reached skill level 14 in Translocations 114831 | Zot:2 | Reached XP level 25. HP: 117/117 MP: 15/47 115187 | Zot:2 | Reached skill level 20 in Dodging 116193 | Zot:4 | Reached skill level 16 in Fighting Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Unarmed | 52 | 48 | 115 | 111 | | | | | || 326 Cast: Magic Dart | 124 | 200 | 393 | 848 | 306 | | | | || 1871 Call Imp | 2 | 11 | 22 | 2 | | | | | || 37 Conjure Flame | | 8 | 40 | 107 | 57 | 4 | | | || 216 Sandblast | | 2 | 8 | 66 | 333 | 230 | 407 | 257 | 27 || 1330 Repel Missiles | | 1 | | 6 | 2 | 5 | 11 | 7 | 1 || 33 Blink | | | 1 | | | 13 | 2 | 34 | 2 || 52 Mephitic Cloud | | | 7 | 21 | 23 | | 2 | | || 53 Fulminant Prism | | | 2 | 81 | 104 | | | | || 187 Lee's Rapid Decon | | | | 22 | 15 | 48 | 15 | 25 | || 125 Bolt of Magma | | | | 45 | 367 | 221 | 38 | 87 | || 758 Iron Shot | | | | | 26 | 21 | 12 | 53 | || 112 Poisonous Cloud | | | | | 11 | 39 | | | || 50 Poison Arrow | | | | | | 188 | 316 | 243 | 2 || 749 Stoneskin | | | | | | 8 | 9 | 5 | 8 || 30 Freezing Cloud | | | | | | 152 | 196 | 163 | 13 || 524 Orb of Destructio | | | | | | 41 | 39 | 88 | 2 || 170 Regeneration | | | | | | | 6 | 17 | 12 || 35 Shroud of Golubri | | | | | | | 4 | 5 | 8 || 17 Lehudib's Crystal | | | | | | | | 115 | 69 || 184 Apportation | | | | | | | | 2 | || 2 Abil: Breathe Fire | | | | | 1 | 1 | | | || 2 Evoke: Wand | | | 1 | 1 | | 7 | | 6 | || 15 Box of beasts | | | | | | | | 8 | 1 || 9 Sack of spiders | | | | | | | | 4 | 2 || 6 Lamp of fire | | | | | | | | 1 | || 1 Use: Scroll | 6 | 9 | 2 | 9 | 12 | 7 | 18 | 23 | 2 || 88 Potion | | 6 | | 2 | 2 | 4 | 10 | 13 | 1 || 38 Stab: Sleeping | 5 | 1 | 1 | 1 | | | | | || 8 Confused | | | 2 | 2 | | | | | || 4 Eat: Chunk | 14 | 10 | 21 | 56 | 114 | 179 | 109 | 134 | 25 || 662 Royal jelly | | | | | | 2 | | | || 2 Meat ration | | | | | | 1 | | 2 | 1 || 4 Pizza | | | | | | 3 | 7 | | || 10

This fella is able to kill approximately 1 draconian at a time, before running out of MP and having to go upstairs. A melee attack wouldn't be practical in this case due to his ridiculously poor defenses and the amount of UC necessary to have a strong attack, and you see the result. Almost 120k turns to make it to Zot with 3 runes.

Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 19:28 by Wahaha

You have made a huge mistake of not learning iron shot while having LCS, and also not training earth and conj above 20. Anyway this is why I stopped playing with spells as main source of damage, takes too long.

Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 19:51 by Berder

Wahaha wrote:You have made a huge mistake of not learning iron shot while having LCS, and also not training earth and conj above 20. Anyway this is why I stopped playing with spells as main source of damage, takes too long.

I did have iron shot for a while, and amnesia'd it after I got LCS in order to get passage of golubria & cblink. There was no need for iron shot given the other damage spells I had (LCS, parrow, fcloud, bolt of magma).

I don't think having more earth/conj would have made a noticeable difference in LCS spellpower, but it would have weakened me in other ways.

Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 20:48 by Siegurt

Note that draconians don't see invis, and felid claws stab, you could get say 8-10 in UC and use evokable invis and use that to tackle draconian packs fairly efficiently.

8 UC would take you very very little time at all to get online at this stage of the game.

Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 21:49 by Igxfl

Wow, it seems like the MP limit matters and needs to be supplemented with melee to avoid massive tedium. Huh.

Sunday, 2nd August 2015, 22:04 by Berder

I didn't have evocable invisibility; would have had to go for the spell. Also I don't think it would have been a great idea to try invis stabbing the dracs, because of how fragile the char was, and getting sufficient UC and hexes would have prevented me from getting other things.

Anyway, the point is not to prove the character was built perfectly by not having melee. The reason I bring it up is to show how hard things can be when you're a mage with no melee, as Igxfl rightly pointed out.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 00:16 by Siegurt

Berder wrote:I didn't have evocable invisibility; would have had to go for the spell. Also I don't think it would have been a great idea to try invis stabbing the dracs, because of how fragile the char was, and getting sufficient UC and hexes would have prevented me from getting other things.

Anyway, the point is not to prove the character was built perfectly by not having melee. The reason I bring it up is to show how hard things can be when you're a mage with no melee, as Igxfl rightly pointed out.

I was more saying "When things started to get hard without it, training a little bit of melee would've been both easy (costing you a miniscule amount of XP comparitively) and effective without sacrificing much, if anything" Obviously the lack of evokable invis is a big drawback to this plan (Since you had the evokation needed to use it, it wouldn't have cost you additional XP.)

Of course a stack of potions or a wand would probably suffice, but if you weren't looking for a possible solution, but rather looking for confirmation that you should normally be able to do some sort of damage with 0 MP, then I guess mission accomplished?

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 01:13 by Berder

I don't think invis stabbing would have been worth the investment with that character. Maybe. There's no sense arguing over it, because it isn't relevant to the reason I mentioned the character.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 13:45 by Lasty

This line of argumentation is like saying, "I trained only Dodging, Poison Magic and Charms, and now I'm having a really hard time killing green draconians! It's ridiculous that I can't kill a green draconian when I have three skills at level 27! Clearly the solution is to [make Dodging work like melee combat | make Poison Magic do more irresistable damage | make Charms work like Conjurations]."

The game gives you many, many things that can kill draconians without a fuss, and you are choosing not to use them. The solution isn't to make more things that kill draconians in the hopes that you'll find one of them acceptable for your character to use.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 14:46 by dowan

Well yeah, he acknowledged that as the lead in to his example:

Berder wrote:I would advise nearly any mage to get some form of physical attack, whether it's melee or ranged. Otherwise you end up like my current character:

You're agreeing with him. The main way to kill draconians without a fuss would have been for him to train some sort of physical attack. Your strawman example has nothing to do with it, although if you only look at your post, it makes it look like whoever you're arguing with must be really stupid. A better example would be to say "I trained only dodging, poison magic, and charms, and now I'm having a really hard time killing green draconians! I should have gotten some form of physical attack"

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 17:40 by Sar

I think he could've killed them with LRD if he had it and high enough Earth magic. I remember high-power LRD being strong.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 17:41 by Lasty

dowan wrote:You're agreeing with him

I agree only to the extent that he was agreeing that weapon skills are pretty good skills in Crawl. More specifically what I'm saying is that there are tons of solutions to the scenario he posited, and a non-Earth/Conjurations physical attack is only one of them. Others include hexes (which he dismissed), summons, god abilities, or even different conjurations. My point is that there are actually tons of ways in crawl to solve problems -- particularly problems like draconians -- and Berder is choosing to ignore most of them in order to push for a version of crawl where training magic skills fully replaces weapon skills.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 17:58 by Berder

Thanks, Dowan. Yes, the only reason I bring up the FeWn^Vehumet is to illustrate the problems of not training melee, and to refute duvessa's mysterious claim that melee is not a necessary skill for mages.

Lasty wrote:and Berder is choosing to ignore most of them in order to push for

Let me correct you on this point: the FeWn^vehumet is the fourth game in a hyper-streak, so believe me when I say I was not doing anything to intentionally weaken the character.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:23 by Sandman25

Berder wrote:Yes, the only reason I bring up the FeWn^Vehumet is to illustrate the problems of not training melee, and to refute duvessa's mysterious claim that melee is not a necessary skill for mages.

You cannot refute facts. My SpVM of Kiku got the Orb despite using nothing but spells, even potions/scrolls/wands were prohibited and I was autotraining without ever touching m screen. Even scroll of remove curse was prohibited. If I was able to teleport, I would not die during Orb run so some characters are so OP that they don't need melee.

Also you can see http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/glosham/mor ... 133141.txt for an online example of a Fe who had only UC 12 and didn't melee much, I guess it was just a convenience for popcorn. I have already provided this morgue as an example of a character who had 3 AC the whole game so I hope glosham does not mind me doing it again.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:28 by Berder

A necessary skill for *most* mages, then, where I use "necessary" in the sense of "necessary for strong play" rather than "necessary to scrape out a win." Total avoidance of melee is usually more in the nature of a challenge, with the occasional exception of some fragile races, or players that don't know better.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:31 by Sandman25

Hybridizing is optimal for casters, yes.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:37 by tabstorm

Berder wrote:I would advise nearly any mage to get some form of physical attack, whether it's melee or ranged. Otherwise you end up like my current character:

This fella is able to kill approximately 1 draconian at a time, before running out of MP and having to go upstairs. A melee attack wouldn't be practical in this case due to his ridiculously poor defenses and the amount of UC necessary to have a strong attack, and you see the result. Almost 120k turns to make it to Zot with 3 runes.

Why didn't you just learn a level 9? I mean, if you're going no melee you may as well just do that.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:49 by archaeo

Even if that's absolutely true (and "optimal" is used with such imprecision that it's hard to tell), I still haven't really heard a good explanation for why that has to be considered a bad design. Virtually all my "melee" characters learn some spells, my "stabbers" learn abilities to help them attack things that are awake, etc. Part of the charm of roguelikes, for me, is the degree to which they expect players to actively respond to the resources available to them in any given seed.

In other words, even if we take it as given that non-weapon-carrying mages are unfairly marginalized in Crawl, the answer definitely isn't "level 0 I-can't-believe-it's-not-melee spells" that only serve to restrict player choice. Instead, it seems like Trog is the most useful in-game example for "restrict player choice in exchange for unique gameplay." Some kind of magic Trog, that restricts physical violence (maybe by restricting physical form??) and requires/boosts spellcasting, would be a significantly better solution than that found in the OP.

Of course, I think spellcasting in current Crawl remains totally viable and that players who aren't intentionally playing hard combos can have fine success casting their way through the game. And, while Berder is totally better at Crawl than I am, I can't help but feel that worshipping Veh was not the best choice for FeWn; I don't think I'd ever play a "dedicated spellcaster" or whatever we call this playstyle that had no access to channeling.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:55 by Berder

tabstorm wrote:Why didn't you just learn a level 9? I mean, if you're going no melee you may as well just do that.

Since my major elemental school was Earth, going for Shatter would have been a lot of investment for something that's ineffective on flying enemies, including the most dangerous Orbs of Fire. By the point i was ready to consider Shatter (i.e. after getting LCS), more Fighting, Dodging, and Translocations for cblink made more sense.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 18:59 by Sandman25

archaeo wrote:I can't help but feel that worshipping Veh was not the best choice for FeWn; I don't think I'd ever play a "dedicated spellcaster" or whatever we call this playstyle that had no access to channeling.

It's a Fe, it can retreat.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 19:00 by Sar

Shatter would be effective on draconians, which you had trouble with.

Shatter usually also means having enough Earth for LCS or at least IS, which are somewhat effective at killing oofs.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 19:02 by bel

EE does not have many multiple target spells, most EE spells are single target. No wonder you are running out of MP.
You should learn Shatter in this case, since it is one of the few multiple-target spells EE get. For OoF you have OoD and LCS, it's not like you are helpless against it. Lvl 9 spells are usually within reach with Vehumet anyway, especially single school ones.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 19:03 by Berder

If I used Shatter in zot, it would kill the draconians, sure, but it would also knock down the walls and attract dragons and orbs of fire and other things shatter wouldn't work on. Shatter is the worst level 9 spell IMO and basically not worth it unless you have XP to burn.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 19:06 by Sandman25

As Fe with 0 UC you do have XP to burn.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 19:46 by Sar

I think Fire Storm is worse, maybe Glaciate too but I actually like Glaciate.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 20:15 by Berder

Sandman25 wrote:As Fe with 0 UC you do have XP to burn.

No, I don't have XP to burn on a level 9 spell that's ineffective on half of the dangerous enemies and brings everything in the level running.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 20:53 by Sar

It's effective on the ones you are saying you had trouble with. Also you can cast it around stairs and retreat, you're a cat after all.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 20:56 by Berder

I mentioned draconians specifically because they are among the weakest enemies in Zot. In other words, if I have to retreat after killing one drac, I obviously also have to retreat after killing a storm dragon, an ancient lich, or an orb of fire - pretty much anything else in Zot aside from death cobs.

Shatter stairdancing in Zot with a felid is a recipe for disaster. Stairdancing in general is something you should only do if you have good defenses, because it involves going up and down stairs with reduced EV while adjacent to several monsters. Plus tentacled monstrosities can constrict you and prevent it.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 20:59 by Sar

I didn't mention stairdancing though? You make noise around one stairs, go up, go down another set of stairs. Since there are 3. Oh well, I am not saying not picking up Shatter was a mistake or anything. Just saying it was an option IMO.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 21:06 by bel

In my experience, freezing cloud works well on draconians, since they are cold blooded.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 21:09 by Berder

You're right, bel, and indeed the FeWn was casting fcloud a lot. However the issue is that waiting around for freezing cloud to kill dracs with the FeWn involved taking excessive damage, so it was usually more practical simply to LCS them.

Monday, 3rd August 2015, 21:15 by bel

Perhaps, but my point was that cloud spells hit multiple enemies at a time. The defences don't look too bad to me, but with low AC a few bad rolls can make you dead.