worst 4 races

[radinms]

I think optimal DD at 3runes is DDNe^Chei. easier than makhleb, IMO

[Sar]

I doubt anybody would agree with that, but okay.

[dowan]

human, martians, plutonians, and neptunians.

The guys from Uranus are not as bad as one might expect.

[Sandman25]

In no particular order:
Mi (too narrow aptitudes and allows bad tactics)
Gr (too good aptitudes and allows to win with awful defense (if we remove 20 AC))
Tr (UC is so OP that even when going for 2h M&F you feel weird, also a trap for new players who can die easily during late game)
Ce (kiting to the extreme, as Sp/Fe you at least can be stealthy/caster and play in less annoying way).

[dowan]

So they're the worst because they're the best for winning? That's an odd definition of worst... But the OP didn't really clarify what standards he was going by...

[Sandman25]

So they're the worst because they're the best for winning? That's an odd definition of worst... But the OP didn't really clarify what standards he was going by...

Consider if we had a race which would have +100 AC and +100 EV at XL 1, starting Int 50 and all aptitudes +20. You could do basically whatever, even pressing only tab and o as Wz with hand axe who trains Spellcasting only and never casts any spells. Wouldn't that be the worst race despite being the best for winning?
Yes, I used my own understanding of "worst" here.

[dowan]

Well that race would pretty well eliminate most of the purpose of the gameplay, and probably not be much fun to play, so sure, that would make sense to call the worst.
By that definition, felids go back to worst for me, because they are positively unfun to play, regardless of winnability.

[Siegurt]

I suppse "is Un fun" is a different, but equally valid qualification for "worst" from "hard to win with" we should probably specify which we mean (or if using some other qualification for worst specify that)

For myself, least winning is octopode, ogre, tengu, and mummy.

Vampire is actually one of my top 5 winning races, (and one I have a lot of fun with) contrary to what some people in this thread have said about it.

[Lasty]

According to online stats, my hardest races are:
Kobold [6.25%]
Tengu [7.69%]
Mummy [8.11%]
Vampire [12.50%]

My intuition is that the 4 hardest are:
Mummy
Octopode
Naga
Tengu (or maybe formicid or deep elf?)

[Magipi]

I really don't get how can someone include tengu, and meanwhile NOT include DE. Te is much like DE but strictly better.

Meanwhile, how can someone not include Fo? This is an even deeper mystery.

[Sandman25]

I really don't get how can someone include tengu, and meanwhile NOT include DE. Te is much like DE but strictly better.

Meanwhile, how can someone not include Fo? This is an even deeper mystery.

Te vs DE - there is huge difference in MP (spellcasting aptitude difference 4 and +10%MP vs +30% MP) so as caster DE is superior. Te fighter is superior to DE indeed.

Fo is not that hard when you are playing optimally: you can lure most monsters unlike Na who would need to train stealth if underpowered.

[tabstorm]

Fo is middle-tie imo. The only thing that is really going to kill you is an OOD killer bee pack. Otherwise, digging is very helpful to create good positions and normal speed means you aren't going to die for no reason when you see enemies you can't kill (which is a lot of them for a Naga). They are pretty easy later on when you have a large shield too.