Crown of Eternal Torment

[Sar]

Crown of Eternal Torment was a fixedart briefly added a couple of months ago. It was a +3 hat that removed 35% of character's maxHP in exchange for making the character immune for torment. It was removed recently because:

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The unrand concept isn't great, mostly just resulting in players who overvalue
rTorment into drastically reducing their maxHP if they happen to find it.

Now, I never used it and I'm not sure I would. The question I want to ask mainly is: why was that a problem if some players would overvalue torment protection? I mean, Necromutation already exists. I get why Crawl doesn't allow walking into lava or quaffing poison, but this kind of shooting yourself in the foot (using seemingly powerful randarts with uniquely crippling side effects) doesn't seem bad to me. What next, removing Gong? It's an objectively terrible item and a newbie trap too. Then we must remove Chei and Qazlal (not like I'm entirely against that, though) since they are just as bad and appear in every game!

Fun fact: I'm pretty sure most casual Crawl players would say this item was removed for being overpowered and completely breaking postendgame.

[radinms]

I think crown of eternal torment should be removed too, but the reason is different.
IMO that crown is absurdly strong, so if crawl remains that crown, maybe should add eternal curse. Without eternal curse, its disadvantage is very cheap.

I think Cheibriados should be removed too, but the reason is different.
IMO Chei is an absurdly powerful god, so every chei game is very very boring.
Chei is "Cheit" so no-brainer.
I don't understand why this god still exists.

[mps]

rip

It wasn't a bad item, actually. A guy on cszo recently picked it up in a tomb:3 vault and used it for the rest of the level. It was good. Don't think it's actually good outside of tomb, of course.

[duvessa]

Around tormentors, wearing crown of eternal torment was basically like not wearing it, and when not around tormentors it didn't offer any "seemingly powerful" effects. It's not like gong or chei/qazlal where there actually is a powerful effect to go along with the property of being awful; it's just awful.

Fun fact: I'm pretty sure most casual Crawl players would say this item was removed for being overpowered and completely breaking postendgame.

Most casual crawl players also think deep elf is a strong race, fire storm is a good spell, and slow weapons are bad. Casual chess players often think that bishops are better than knights. When I was 10 I thought a "blowjob" was putting your mouth over a woman's vulva and blowing air into her vagina. While this might be interesting trivia to some, it's not a foundation for game design.

[onget]

overpowered and completely breaking postendgame is much easier than to reach the temple

[Sar]

Most casual crawl players also think deep elf is a strong race, fire storm is a good spell

clearly we need to remove DE and Fire Storm to protect those idiots from themselves

[bcadren]

Crown of Eternal Torment gave simultaneous immunity to Torment AND Dispel Undead; add some rC and rPois and...Gloorx Vloq and Ereshkigal are borderline harmless. (Eresh suddenly only has a 40 melee hit and summoning guys that can only bolt of cold you). BUT away from those places...it can be pretty bad.

Yes minmay, having 80% of your HP and 25% of your HP after two turns in LoS of a tormentor that happened to proc casting Torment two times in a row are EXACTLY the same thing. Also geez:

1. Fsim agrees that slow weapons are bad (AvEffDam on a Triple Crossbow is less than an Arbalest versus a Hell Sentinel until skill>=21); combination of Triple Crossbow being slower and less accurate until you have the skill to use it well. Nothing nice about swinging a weapon you don't have the skill for, missing and getting hit three times because you are so slow with it.
2. I'm not sure what you have against fire storm; personally my favorite level 9 is shatter; since it targets everything in LoS instead of a single area and it can be used to avoid hell lords if you know what you're doing; but fire storm is a cornerstone of Megazigging; not even sure larger Zigs are possible without Fire Storm, Glaciate or Tornado. (Shatter gets disqualified for not doing enough damage to fiends because of their flight).
3. DE are pretty strong. 4! Charms pretty well means, you have a really strong character as soon as you find a book of enchantments. I think they are about the most fun to play because of how early you can get level 6 spells online. Good book drops (cBlink, Haste, etc.) more than make up for fragility. It's not like everyone thinks a tabstorm character is the easier.

[Sar]

"or Tornado"? Isn't Tornado (+ Makhleb) the spell for megazigging, all others being just additional damage you do while Tornado kills everything ot make things die faster?

[radinms]

Even if you have rN+++, you take 35%dmg for torment.
1 shot torment: your HP is Max*0.65

If you wear that crown, your HP remains Max*0.8.

The difference is MAX*0.15.
If your MHP=200: the difference=30
If your MHP=273: the difference=41

Even one shot, there is difference.
Obviously Tomb, Tar, and Cocytus are places you should wear that crown.
(Especially Cocytus:7, that is worst place. too many ice fiends at boss floor)
Dis and Gehenna have a lot of hellfire, so hard to wear. but if you play high-HP race like Mi, obviously you should wear that crown.
Single torment is more dangerous than single hellfire at high-HP races, because torment and hellfire combination is extreme dangerous.


This was Mi that had immunity to torment.
http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/rad ... 142110.txt
I always weared that crown at extended game except some pan floors because for me HP218 is enough if I have torment immunity.

[gammafunk]

Math about a 15% difference in HP under a single torment with/without the crown is irrelevant because you have both careful play and many consumables to deal with torment easily, especially if you're using a strong god in extended. However nothing can change the fact that with the crown you have an even larger reduction in HP the other 99.9% of the time when you're not being tormented, which made it a terrible item to just wear all the time if you only care about winning. If you care about turncount or realtime or just decide you can't bear thinking about torment ever, then I guess this was a good item for you, but necromutation and statue form still exists, so I don't think the loss of this unrand will affect us all too deeply.

[byrel]

However nothing can change the fact that with the crown you have an even larger reduction in HP the other 99.9% of the time when you're not being tormented, which made it a terrible item to just wear all the time if you only care about winning.

That's kind of true, but swapping slots is time consuming, and I'd rather just wear something. On top of that, at least back in 0.15 (when I last did a few 15-runers) if there wasn't a source of torment in sight, I mostly wasn't worried (maybe branch ends being the exception). It was always the combo of torment and hellfire that proved to be risky. And taking a permanent %HP boost for torment immunity sounds reasonable to me.

If the problem was it encouraged helmet swapping which is grindy, add *Contam or something. But if the problem is 'it looks shiny and is only very situationally useful' then we need to eliminate 80% of the fixedarts.

There are a lot of extended characters with such absurd defenses that nothing but a few pan lords and irresistable attacks are dangerous. For them, giving up some Max HP to eliminate one of the bigger irresistable threats is a potentially reasonable choice

I do need to disclaim that the only time I found this I never wore it since I died before facing torment... But I think it's a fairly straightforward thing to theorycraft.

[dynast]

I would totally use it on a vampire.

[Berder]

However nothing can change the fact that with the crown you have an even larger reduction in HP the other 99.9% of the time when you're not being tormented

In extended, if you didn't get tormented recently, you aren't in any danger. It's not quite true (hellion island) but it's nearly true. So it doesn't matter if you have less HP when you're not being tormented, because those times aren't generally dangerous.

[gammafunk]

You aren't in any danger period in extended if you play correctly, and that includes when tormenting enemies are nearby; that's the problem with crawl extended. But walking around with permanently 35% less HP in extended (or anywhere really) is certainly a good way to get in danger.

[Berder]

I thought it reduced your max HP by only 20%. At least, that's what learndb says. Did they nerf it to -35%, then remove it because it was too weak?

[byrel]

You aren't in any danger period in extended if you play correctly, and that includes when tormenting enemies are nearby; that's the problem with crawl extended. But walking around with permanently 35% less HP in extended (or anywhere really) is certainly a good way to get in danger.

This is only true with the same reductiveness that makes 'you're never in danger in crawl as a reasonably powerful combo' true. Yes, yes, with perfect play, I could trivially win 99% of SpEn. I don't have a 99% SpEn ascension rate because (like everyone else) I don't actually play optimally. I take shortcuts. I miscalculate. I play imperfectly. Danger can't be handwaved away with the notion that if only you could and did play optimally you wouldn't BE in danger. And you really can't handwave away all danger in the extended endgame, and then in the next sentence say that having 20-35% less HP (depending on iteration) magically nullifies your previous handwaving. I'm pretty sure that optimal play will pretty much keep you from ever getting to 20% HP as well, ignoring repeated torments (say from behind a meat shield wall).

People die in extended. Lots of people. They certainly find SOMETHING dangerous there, even if the mythical optimal player wouldn't. And so, discussing the impact of a fixedart on what actual players find dangerous is quite relevant. And my experience is that tormentors (fiends and whatnot mostly) are nearly always placed in rune vaults. They are so placed because torment is one of two threats in the endgame which are quite relevant due to irresistability and smite targeting. (Giant eyeballs are a niche case that I'd grant as well, I suppose.) They KILL people.

Crown of eternal torment is situational, to be sure. But if I was low on remove curse in the extended endgame, I would keep it on for a lot of characters.

(Berder: pretty sure it was introduced at 35%, then buffed to 20%.)

[radinms]

At least when I played that MiTm, the property was HP-20%.

If it is nerfed to HP-35%... that is useless.
Sorry, I didn't know they nerfed that crown.

[byrel]

It wasn't nerfed. It was buffed from -35 to -20.

[Berder]

I don't see anything in the change log about the change.

[byrel]

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... 563a257e60

[gammafunk]

I was discussing whether wearing the crown permanently makes your character weaker (less likely to win) assuming correct play, and it pretty clearly makes your character weaker (despite some people mistakenly believing otherwise or even being confused about what this question means). So I'm not too concerned with what happens when players make big mistakes when handling things like Torment in extended. Spoiler: My preferred result is that they die and have to start a new game of crawl. When we introduce new items/spells/monsters/gameplay in crawl, we generally start from the standpoint of what happens with correct play, because it leads to a game with a better design. Yes there are a million exceptions to this, different developers adhere to this in different ways, Too Many Cooks etc.

Anyhow the OP says "but this kind of shooting yourself in the foot (using seemingly powerful randarts with uniquely crippling side effects) doesn't seem bad to me." His contention is that unrands that are useful only very situationally and which generally fool players into using them shouldn't be disallowed. There is a trend to only introduce unrands that are generally useful and to clean up the older ones that aren't, however. The crown was just a very situational item, and there are much more common things like necromutation, statue form, and Kiku that all relevant species can use to mitigate torment with a lot less risk.

[Berder]

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=f724129b64319a9a8cdbb9f18b9ab7563a257e60

Oh, I couldn't find it because I was searching for "eternal" but it was referred to as "crown of torment" in that patch.

I was discussing whether wearing the crown permanently makes your character weaker (less likely to win) assuming correct play, and it pretty clearly makes your character weaker (despite some people mistakenly believing otherwise or even being confused about what this question means). So I'm not too concerned with what happens when players make big mistakes when handling things like Torment in extended. Spoiler: My preferred result is that they die and have to start a new game of crawl

I think it does not make you less likely to win assuming correct play. Without torment, "don't fight if you're below 50% HP" is a good rule you can follow if you're trying to play safe. With torment it's often impossible to be that choosy.

Safe play is more about mitigating the extremes than it is about handling the common cases more easily. Crown of eternal torment prevents the extreme, e.g. where you get tormented 3x in a row, while making the common case (maybe) a little harder. That's a net win for safety.

[byrel]

The crown was just a very situational item, and there are much more common things like necromutation, statue form, and Kiku that all relevant species can use to mitigate torment with a lot less risk.

None of which are usually available to, say, a berserker. Or a MiFi-of-not-kiku-or-TSO. Or any number of other combos-of-not-kiku-or-TSO. Of course, crown of eternal torment won't generally be either, but you can't say there isn't a sizable number of heros on whom it makes some sense. I think the niche for this artifact (with the -20 version, not -35 which was only present for one day) is larger (assuming 15-rune play; I doubt people are wearing it in 3-runes except maybe crypt) than Finisher, Sceptre of Torment, Morg (really, most of the SB unrandarts), Brilliance, the hat of Pondering, etc.

Basically, I don't really think this is as useless as you seem to. I'd happily give up 20% HP for torment resistance in tomb on most characters. I'm rarely going to be able to kill 3 foo-mummies without taking one torment, at which point I've broken even. The danger there is torment->smite, not just smite.

[radinms]

Please tell me why High-HP races(Fighting27, HP-20%, torment immunity)is weak and dangerous.
The most dangerous dmg in extended is torment, hellfire, storm.
Not melee and anyway you have good defense and you are not bloodless vampire(terrible weak).
And unlike necromutation(I agree this is a weak spell so unnecessary at most characters),
you can use holy weapon.

Even If at HP-20%, very very few situations are dangerous.
At Normal HP and only rN+++, you will have a more dangerous cases.

Anyway, you manage 15% difference(vs torment), you can manage -20% difference.

[Rast]

Fine, bring it back with just a -10% HP mod.

Some people will still say that it's a trap, but I don't care, and I would totally wear it all the time in extended.

[dowan]

The devs regularly admit to being pretty bad at crawl, and yet sometimes they think they know absolutely everything about good play. Now we're going to pretend that torment doesn't do anything, so torment immunity is worthless. But obviously that's not true. How do you prevent getting tormented? Usually you kill the tormenter(So you're not killing something else). If you don't have to worry about torment, suddenly tormenting monsters aren't necessarily super high priority to kill.

-20% hp for torment immunity is a good trade in some situations, and seems to be exactly the kind of interesting decision making crawl is supposed to have in it. I'd put that on before fighting a curse toe if I knew one was around, for example.

Having 80% hp around a tormentor isn't the same as having 50% hp around a tormentor. Now 25% Now 12.5%. That's just a blatantly untrue statement. This is just the kind of thinking that happens from sitting around in an echo chamber and only listening to the echoes that support your viewpoint.

That all said, I would probably not use this item too often, but it would certainly make some of extended a lot less unpleasant.

[Jeremiah]

Maybe gargoyles should be removed because they have -20% HP and better torment resistance.

[gammafunk]

A few devs 'admit' that, but certainly not this one. The person who's probably the best player in all of crawl is a dev, and the person who removed the crown is a very experienced crawl player (much more so than the person who made the crown, lol wheals), so it's funny to bring up "developers don't know how to play crawl".

The issue isn't "pretending that torment does nothing" or that torment immunity is worthless. No one ever said things like this, and you have to properly deal with torment. The item being both bad and very rare makes it not fun, IMO, especially when there are other ways to resist torment that are better and more common.

Sorry people, your torment is eternal because the Crown isn't coming back!

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Just rename it to Crown of Noneternal Tomb as a hint.

I think this helmet would be situationally useful in Tomb, Coc, and when fighting the tormenting bosses in extended. I don't see it as a trap, but a situationally useful item, like some jewellery or armour that give a useful resistance in branches where they're likely to help.

[dowan]

Who is this "Best at crawl" dev?

I didn't say they don't know how to play(Although most seem to admit to being pretty bad/don't really play much), but I did say there might be fun and effective ways to play that are different than theirs. Limiting a game to only be played the way the current 'best' players say it should be is a good way to make a game stagnate.

[Sar]

There is a trend to only introduce unrands that are generally useful and to clean up the older ones that aren't, however.

Ah right, this is why the other recent additions were a hat that speeds up your MP regen and contams you and randart properties that drain, confuse and corrode user, and dirty hat got a negative enchantment?

Sorry people, your torment is eternal because the Crown isn't coming back!

I'm not that dumb, I didn't expect the removal to be reverted. I just wanted to whine.

Who is this "Best at crawl" dev?

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/elliptic.html

[Arrhythmia]

I would like everyone to know that minmay is bad at chess, and there are quite a few circumstances (when they're paired, open games, end games) where bishops are more valuable than knights.

[duvessa]

I would like everyone to know that minmay is bad at chess, and there are quite a few circumstances (when they're paired, open games, end games) where bishops are more valuable than knights.

I was actually thinking of the common situation where they think bishops are "better than knights" for the whole game (or sometimes the reverse). I am bad at chess though.

The devs regularly admit to being pretty bad at crawl, and yet sometimes they think they know absolutely everything about good play.

You can be pretty bad at crawl and still realize that a hat of -20% hp is fucking bad.

[Arrhythmia]

gammafunk i know you're reading this thread and if you post about that time i didn't actually beat minmay at chess i am unleashing a thousand gammadunks

[gammafunk]

I don't get why you're all so tormented by this. I'm sensing a lot of negative energy in general, and the whole thing is pretty draining. It's like my mummy used to say: "Being nice to people is like a sport. If you go for the ghould, they'll treat you like a vamp."

[dowan]

I would like everyone to know that minmay is bad at chess, and there are quite a few circumstances (when they're paired, open games, end games) where bishops are more valuable than knights.

I was actually thinking of the common situation where they think bishops are "better than knights" for the whole game (or sometimes the reverse). I am bad at chess though.

The devs regularly admit to being pretty bad at crawl, and yet sometimes they think they know absolutely everything about good play.

You can be pretty bad at crawl and still realize that a hat of -20% hp is fucking bad.

Well, there are tons of races of -20% or worse HP. So I guess we should remove all races without +30% hp, right?

But yeah, a hat that only reduced your HPs by 20% and gave nothing in return would be an obviously bad item. This wasn't that, it was -20% hp, in exchange for removing the attack from the game that gives -50% hp (or, best case scenario, -35%). This attack actually does stack, too, as some people seem prone to forget.

The point isn't that it was a good item to use all the time, but that it offered an interesting choice for extended, not much different than the choice of using necromut instead of training other skills. The fact that some people would overvalue the protection it offered doesn't diminish the fact that it did offer good protection against a legitimate threat in extended. Deep dwarves in particular would probably be happy to turn off torment in exchange for 20% max hp.

Some people might take off a +6AC ring to put on a ring of rF so they have 3 pips of fire resistance before fighting fire giants. The fact that this is a dumb thing to do doesn't mean we should remove rF rings.

It's not the removal of the item that irks me so much as the reasoning given for the removal, and the logic some posters are using to claim the item itself was completely worthless.

[dynast]

My favorite thing about the crown was that it was the only source of torment immunity that didnt make you vulnerable to dispel undead and i read this entire topic as "the crown got nerfed so it could be removed for being bad".

[byrel]

But it was never nerfed... it's only been buffed since it's been in.

[Sar]

The crown got buffed actually, something I didn't reflect in the OP because I couldn't find the commit. It "only" reduced maxHP by 20% before getting axed.

[Pollen_Golem]

So, -20% HP is so terribly bad that torment immunity can't make up for it? What if the crown gave +20% HP instead, and doubled torment damage? It would be the most OP artefact ever, not a newbie trap at all, and an excellent choice for extended! We should tie in bonus torment damage with Robust mutation, nobody would mind since the extra HP is so good!

[dynast]

Now i understand even less why it got removed, i would have thrown my alchemist hat on the lava if i had it on my last night's run, instead i come across stuff like a antimagic whip and a mace to beat undead with...

[File200]

EXTREME EFFORT POST TIME

I disagree with a lot of decisions made by the devs. But I understand that most (probably all) of them are better players than I am, and for that reason, I don't badmouth them. That said, I'm feeling some serious arrogance here, which has probably existed for a long time.

For example:

The issue isn't "pretending that torment does nothing" or that torment immunity is worthless. No one ever said things like this, and you have to properly deal with torment. The item being both bad and very rare makes it not fun, IMO, especially when there are other ways to resist torment that are better and more common.

Who are you to declare what's fun and not fun? If a player thinks something is fun, then it's at least fun to them. I, personally, think rolling over Pan with a postgame character is pretty fun, especially with torment immunity.

Which brings me to another change I disliked: removing Singularity as a player spell. One argument for its removal was that it was "Overpowered." But, If you can cast it, the game is already over. You might as well remove every other level 9 spell on that basis. The other issue raised was that it was "Problematic" because of it allows you to kill things out LoS. Reducing the damage to monsters out of LoS would fix that just fine. But, no, hurting things out of LoS ever is toxic and bad for the game.

Which brings me to this:

So I'm not too concerned with what happens when players make big mistakes when handling things like Torment in extended. Spoiler: My preferred result is that they die and have to start a new game of crawl. When we introduce new items/spells/monsters/gameplay in crawl, we generally start from the standpoint of what happens with correct play, because it leads to a game with a better design.

Really? If players don't play the way that is currently optimal, they should just die? You're starting from the assumption that there IS a correct way to play Crawl. This goes beyond whether or not there IS an optimal way to play. You're making a value statement that there SHOULD be an optimal way to play, and that playstyle should be enforced. I thought that was against Crawl philosophy.

[File200]

That goes back to what someone else said: if you're getting rid of items and options that encourage normally suboptimal play, why not get rid of Chei and Xom? And Deep elves too, while we're at it. Choosing to have less HP and torment immunity while foregoing another potentially useful piece of headgear is a choice, and whether it's an interesting choice depends on the individual player. It's kind of like choosing to have less HP to get more AC and an uncommon resistance. The only difference is that one choice is made at the character select screen.

Talking about bad habits is stupid anyway, because most people who play enough to find this item have probably played enough to know how to deal with tormentors. (And I think making BLACK HOLES is fun enough to justify the existence of a spell that goes against the normal optimal playstyle.)

Now that I've vented, I need to say this to the non-devs: the dev team isn't really at fault for whatever changes you disagree with. They are where they are because they put more time into this game than anyone else. It's only natural that they cater to themselves; they've earned it. But if anyone says that too many cooks spoil the pot, I'll disagree on principal. "Too Many Cooks" is only a problem when you have too many people and too few tasks, causing redundancy and restlessness. Game design is the opposite of that: if you want to appeal to as many people as possible, you need as many perspectives as possible.

[Sar]

i would have thrown my alchemist hat on the lava if i had it on my last night's run

See? You gotta be thankful you've been protected from such stupid decisions. One day, you will understand.

[File200]

The hardcore players (not just the devs) are in a kind of loop where they found a few playstyles that win, and became comfortable with them. Eventually, the game gets stale, and needs to be updated. Some things are immediately identified as boring, like pillar dancing and stash management, while other things are identified as annoying (too many monsters to count). The top players are obviously going to play to win, so the proposed solution is to change the game to make boring play suboptimal. You can deal out punishments directly for "Problematic" behaviors, either with game mechanics or monsters that make you change tactics. Players won't like them, and call them "Unfair" or "Annoying," and rightfully so most of the time. Unfortunately, this creates a head-space where all meaningful changes are regarded with suspicion, making it impossible to have a serious discussion about them. I've certainly felt that proposing serious ideas was a waste of time, because they're just going to bounce around uselessly. Maybe they get tepid support, more likely they just get mocked.

But like I said, the devs aren't to blame for this. It's the players who want to see a change, but can't get off their asses to code anything. You want your Crown back? Earn it. Keep playing, get good, make a name for yourself. You don't necessarily have to get winstreaks on the Web for that last one, but you do have to demonstrate your knowledge and competence. Make contributions when you can--even small things like updated descriptions and bug reports. Find an idea that has even a modicum of support and make your own branch to implement it. Be the change you want to see, and Zot Bless America. Or wherever you live.

[dynast]

i would have thrown my alchemist hat on the lava if i had it on my last night's run

See? You gotta be thankful you've been protected from such stupid decisions. One day, you will understand.

Imagine if i got hit by a bolt of cold with rc++ from a ice fiend because i didnt wanted to quaff resistance.

Good thing i only got tormented three times while Antaeus was staring at me.

Unrelated: File200 should mention other PURE translocation spells that summons an invulnerable orb that causes AoE damage to enemies out of LoS and push/pull them.

[archaeo]

what you guys seem to be forgetting is that Crawl's just the honeypot for the real game: the Tavern MMORPG, where everybody loses.

[File200]

what you guys seem to be forgetting is that Crawl's just the honeypot for the real game: the Tavern MMORPG, where everybody loses.

The Tavern game is still interesting from a game theory perspective. It's a negative-sum game where aggressive strategies (repeating your opinion ad nauseam) are both optimal and inherently risky: you can take a players free time by making them respond to your disagreeable opinions, but if you go too far, they walk away and come out ahead in relative terms.

[tasonir]

what you guys seem to be forgetting is that Crawl's just the honeypot for the real game: the Tavern MMORPG, where everybody loses.

I've been noticing a rise in saltiness levels in the MMO, I think they need to adjust the new player tutorials to remind people that it's a team oriented MMO, and that you should be seeking consensus more, and looking for common ground. If you agree on 80% of things, just agree to disagree about the other 20% and recognize you're on the same team.

As for the crown: I've never used it, and probably wouldn't, as I typically have statue form instead and consider statue form much better than the crown is. Still, I would consider using it in certain very niche cases, as I agree with berder: Improving the worst case scenario is more important than improving the "already won" popcorn fights. It would be a hassle to switch it around in the few cases where there's a worst case scenario that doesn't involve torment (there are very few of these, but hellion island as well as some pan lords/hell lords qualify). I mostly just have to defend the crown because if no one stands up for it they're going to remove the hat of pondering next, which is an amazing hat and needs to stay

[Sar]

lol right, how could I forget the worst hat of them all

hilarious