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zot: 1-4 is one of the easiest part of the game,
draconians is very weak.
draconians need to be buff.

List of problems
normal (coloured) draconian: simply is a weak version of monk. very weak melee.
Dr annihilator: slightly buffed DE annihilator. That's all.
Dr caller: Rarely summon death drake. That's all. It is I believe weaker than DE demonologist.
Dr knight: unknown reasons simulacrum has been removed(why?), it is simply high HP and weak spell annihilator. And weak melee than normal draconian(why? its skill in use of weapons).
Dr monk:This is the most threatening draconian If are Berserk. However, is a non-Berserk Monk is weak.(My most impressive draconian)
Dr scorcher: I do not remember it, perhaps it is not really impressive.
Dr shifter: I do not remember it, perhaps it is not really impressive.
Dr zealot:slightly buffed DE high priest. That's all.

normal(coloued) draconian and knight and monk:melee damage it will buff.
caster (annihilator, knight, scorcher, zealot): buff spell damage, add a more powerful spell.

new Dr annihilator spell set idea:blink,LCS,OoD,miasma,chain lightning(It will probably kill other Dr)
new Dr knight spell set idea:haste,flash freeze,simulacrum,freezing cloud(miasma,ghostly flame). perma ozo armour condensation shield.
Dr caller idea:add powerful summoning(greater demon,eyeball,horrible things,dragon,malign gateway,illusion,shadow creature)

The other draconian also weak, need to buff.

No, they aren't weak. They aren't as insane Orbs of Fire, but they aren't weak.

scorchers have hellfire FYI

and how you can not remember shifters, I have no idea

I don't think draconians are weak, but Zot 1-4 does generally seem a bit anticlimactic compared to V5 and lower Depths, unless you meet early OOFs, which is always a possibility.

Draconian packs can suddenly get much more dangerous if a moth of wrath starts berserking them or a shifter blinks its allies around you.

If anything, the underwhelming monsters in Zot are low-tier dragons (fire and ice) and death cobs, which never seem to do anything interesting.

I think part of the problem is that by the time you go to Zot, the character is very powerful and prepared to fight OOF and ancient liches (or you're speedrunning in which case you're trying to avoid fighting anything.)

bcadren wrote:No, they aren't weak. They aren't as insane Orbs of Fire, but they aren't weak.

OOF(and ancient lich) is most weak red name monster.

draconian is weaker than elf:3(or vault) DEs(annihilator,demonologist,high priest.)

Most of the draconian is a slightly buff DE, if you are entering a zot, already you will be able to deal with the DE.

How is relatively powerful is draconian?

Now that the player can cblink in z:5, zot monsters deserve another look, imo. Elf too. Draconians are kind of okay as it stands. The dispelling breath is v good, imo. I've seen it create very tense situations by repeatedly canceling teleportation. Draconian abilities that stop teleportation play a much more vital role now and ought to be accentuated.

An individual draconian isn't necessarily strong compared to other individual monsters, but draconians as a pack are certainly not weak against the vast majority of characters. What kind of characters are you talking about here? Hellfire (zealot, scorcher), summoning (zealots, callers), shifters, dispelling, any of these things require care. Especially when they come with other draconians, moths of wrath, and whatever else might get called in from the noise. I don't agree that comparable draconians are weaker than elf monsters, though there aren't really comparable draconians to blademasters / archers, and a typical pack might be more varied than the elf:3 vaults (but I'm not sure random encounters in zot should be as hard as elf:3 vault?).

If zot is anticlimactic, my take is that it's in comparison to depths, where nowadays the dungeon layouts are so interesting ("interesting") and varied. Zot often feels very same-y to me after that, even though I don't often do them completely adjacent. I don't think Zot has changed much since some time before depths were added.

advil wrote:An individual draconian isn't necessarily strong compared to other individual monsters, but draconians as a pack are certainly not weak against the vast majority of characters. What kind of characters are you talking about here? Hellfire (zealot, scorcher), summoning (zealots, callers), shifters, dispelling, any of these things require care. Especially when they come with other draconians, moths of wrath, and whatever else might get called in from the noise. I don't agree that comparable draconians are weaker than elf monsters, though there aren't really comparable draconians to blademasters / archers, and a typical pack might be more varied than the elf:3 vaults (but I'm not sure random encounters in zot should be as hard as elf:3 vault?).

My take is that Draconian packs are uninteresting when you can kill individual Draconians fast enough that they can't fight you as a "Pack." I'm in favor of buffing their hit points or defenses, but nothing else.

advil wrote:If zot is anticlimactic, my take is that it's in comparison to depths, where nowadays the dungeon layouts are so interesting ("interesting") and varied. Zot often feels very same-y to me after that, even though I don't often do them completely adjacent. I don't think Zot has changed much since some time before depths were added.

Zot is underwhelming in a lot of ways, but the main one isn't that it's easy (which it is). It's just bland. Zot is supposed to be the fever dream of a mad wizard filled with clowns and evil corn, but in practice its just like going back to the regular Dungeon. Before changing the monsters, I'd like to see the level generation modified, even if that just means borrowing code from other Branches. I'm also going to plug my idea for "Zot Gimmicks/Hellish Zot Effects" here.

onget wrote:
bcadren wrote:No, they aren't weak. They aren't as insane Orbs of Fire, but they aren't weak.

OOF(and ancient lich) is most weak red name monster.

w-what

File200 wrote:I'm in favor of buffing their hit points or defenses

Dracs already have tons of HP for pack monsters, most of them can have up to 100 HP, some start at around 100 HP.

Give them fast movement, fast regen, let the knights blow a signal horn, and have them run away when reaching 50% hp, only to return after healing to 75%.

It's zot. You can handle it.

File200 wrote:
advil wrote:If zot is anticlimactic, my take is that it's in comparison to depths, where nowadays the dungeon layouts are so interesting ("interesting") and varied. Zot often feels very same-y to me after that, even though I don't often do them completely adjacent. I don't think Zot has changed much since some time before depths were added.
Zot is underwhelming in a lot of ways, but the main one isn't that it's easy (which it is). It's just bland. Zot is supposed to be the fever dream of a mad wizard filled with clowns and evil corn, but in practice its just like going back to the regular Dungeon. Before changing the monsters, I'd like to see the level generation modified, even if that just means borrowing code from other Branches. I'm also going to plug my idea for "Zot Gimmicks/Hellish Zot Effects" here.

If U is like what we want Z to be, why not rename U "Z," add the Z monsters to its lower floors, and put the orb vault at the bottom floor? I guess you could make it a floor or two longer if you felt that was necessary.

OP sounds like he only goes to Zot with 40/25 defenses.

In my latest game a Draconian caller summoned an OOF and a dragon in a single turn right next to me and I nearly shit my pants.

onget wrote:OOF(and ancient lich) is most weak red name monster.

: gohfdxsb.jpg (8.33 KiB) Viewed 5458 times

all before wrote:If U is like what we want Z to be, why not rename U "Z," add the Z monsters to its lower floors, and put the orb vault at the bottom floor? I guess you could make it a floor or two longer if you felt that was necessary.

I know you're mocking me, but that change would be fine as far as I'm concerned. On topic, just making Zot layouts more open would make Draconians work the way they're supposed to. But, in all likelihood, Zot (and Lair, and Lair Branches, and D:8-15) won't be touched for a long time. The only question I have is whether the dev team wants Zot to continue being what it is right now.

Zot is fairly dangerous, but it's not the big jump it used to be due to depths. I certainly wouldn't call it easy, especially that acid trip vault.

Maybe if you grab the Orb with enough runes--let's say nine, because it's a factor of 27--it changes the Dungeon, making the Orb run more dangerous. Don't change the monster generation or anything else, just generate new levels that have to be explored. Now you have three "Levels" of victory. "Boring First Win" three-rune victory, "Spiced up Orb Run" 9-rune victory, and "You've Done Everything so There's no Challenge Left" 15-rune victory. Mods please move this thread to CYC because it's going nowhere.

OOF is a fairly weak monster but only because it's possible to be 80% resistant to all of its damage. Orb of iron shot would be a lot more dangerous.

Getting back on topic, I like the current ability sets but the cast rate could be higher. Make ability use more common so that Monks stop dying without having berserked, and more corrosive/elec breath spam would also be a problem.

When a draconian can see [n] other draconians, it executes [n+1] breath attacks simultaneously.

tasonir wrote:OOF is a fairly weak monster but only because it's possible to be 80% resistant to all of its damage. Orb of iron shot would be a lot more dangerous.

Having orbs of each element could be interesting. Orb of Earth, Orb of Fire, Orb of Wind, Orb of Water, Orb of Heart, and a unique Orb with the powers of the others combined.

Ordinary dragons like fire/ice/shadow dragons are too weak for Zot. Replace them with Dracoknight: Dragons with Draconians riding them. These are generated by combining a dragon with a random Draconian profession. The dragon gets buffed HP and can use the abilities granted by the profession in addition to its breath attack.

On top of that, Death Cobs are pretty pointless. I'm fine with them being worthless popcorn (GEDDIT) enemies, but give them a unique attack. They should throw or drop exploding kernels.

Hey, shadow dragons are pretty damn rough if you don't have a pip or two of rN, if you're a hex user or some other character with situationally limited offense. Fire is pointless, it's already zot, ice dragons are an effective way to get the player to consider using rC sometimes, although frost giants probably do a better job of that.

Death Cobs continue to be a very dumb enemy, and make crawl much less classy with their existence. Removing them and curse toes would be a very good thing (Just give them new tiles and names).

Death Cobs are not pointless because they're speed 25. Maybe their damage can be increased to 25 instead of 20.

Death Cobs are not pointless because they're super funny.

Berder wrote:Give them fast movement, fast regen, let the knights blow a signal horn, and have them run away when reaching 50% hp, only to return after healing to 75%.

It's zot. You can handle it.

I'd like something like this. Make 'em fight a little smarter than other monsters. I like the idea of opening Zot 1-4 up a little and making it more spider-y too.

There was a thread recently about making monster AI smarter, and one of the consensuses was that it would probably be annoying. I think having to mix up your tactics and deal with more annoying monsters in Zot isn't a bad idea. As it is, the draconians aren't a huge threat if you don't use singularly bad tactics. There are some things like the warpers dropping random Dr next to you and dispelling breath which are a step in the right direction. But if you could seriously have them set up effective ambushes, play smarter and make you come out of chokepoints, etc. it would make Z1-4 less boring. Z5 is fine, I think. It's already a serious threat.

zot monster(And most of the monsters) is very weak version of the early game monsters. Simply weak version of orc wizard/priest/centaur/ sigmund/grinder.

If you are an early game on the basis of degree of difficulty, all of zot monsters are immune to all attacks, kill you immediately.

Is onget just cerekov's alt?

File200--I wasn't mocking you. I'd like it if a super-U replaced Z.

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