How spell noise ruins everything

[dynast]

Loud spells make the players not use those spells because they "dont want to deal with a situation where they are being attacked by more monsters than they can handle or dont want to wake up the entire dungeon" relying only on lower level less noisy spells making the game a slow crawl through or they want to use it because they "have a safe retreat position (aka stairdance) or are just strong enough to hold their ground" making the game a hack'n slash mayhen where after slaying pretty much anything that "came to check what those poison/freezing clouds were all about" is left to explore a almost empty floor.

[Sar]

Aren't Poisonous/Freezing Clouds really quiet? I also remember not-lightning Bolts being quiet as well.

[Blobbo]

Seems more like a critique of luring in general than spell noise really. Everything makes noise so it's always good to lure. Fact that you have to lure 20 steps for fireball and 10 steps to beat their face in with a stick, is just a matter of degree.

[dynast]

Aren't Poisonous/Freezing Clouds really quiet? I also remember not-lightning Bolts being quiet as well.

clouds are "a bit loud" from the last time i checked, and poison cloud lasts for a while, you can also use lighting bolt to wake up as much stuff as possible, place clouds and retreat, then fight whatever deadly poisoned creature that comes at you. If nothing comes rest and repeat.

Seems more like a critique of luring in general than spell noise really.

playing a spellcaster shouldnt be considered luring, which is what happens based on your spell choice.

My point is, spell noise makes the game less about exploring the dungeon and more about fighting an arena of creatures.

[Sar]

playing a spellcaster shouldnt be considered luring

Well "playing" a melee character already is, why should spellcasters have it easier?

[dynast]

playing a spellcaster shouldnt be considered luring

Well "playing" a melee character already is, why should spellcasters have it easier?

Because you cannot stab with spells. Spell noise serves no other purpose than making you not have to explore or be scared or exploring or be scared of using specific spells.

[Sar]

Why is it bad for different spells having different advantages or disadvantages?

Because you cannot stab with spells.

You can ood-stab! You can also exclude sleeping monsters, summon a screen worth of help, drop a cloud/storm from out of LoS...

[Sprucery]

Personally, I don't usually really care about spell noise. Maybe if I've spotted Mennas asleep nearby I might refrain from making noise but otherwise I just deal with them as they come.

[KoboldLord]

There are a handful of common spells that have noise as a specific drawback of using them. The majority of spells make much less noise. Unless there is some specific reason to be concerned, such as a sleeping unique in the middle of a nearby exclusion, I usually just ignore noise from spells with low noise ratings. One monster shout will usually render all lesser levels of noise irrelevant anyway. I do fall back into safe, explored territory as I fight, of course, but I do that with every sort of build.

I frequently use even really loud spells, of course, because the thing that the noise is compensating for is usually really good killing power. It doesn't matter if you wake up a few extra monsters if you kill those monsters in the process, because Fireball does that. It's just a matter of judging when the drawback is or is not something to worry about.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I've never thought of spell noise being a big factor on how I play conjurers. I never pick up Lightning Bolt though, but that's because for me Fire >= Earth > Cold >> everything else.

I'm partial to Conjurer background though, so Battlesphere + Magic Dart or IMB is where it's at for a long stretch of the game, and noise is only a factor there if the IMB explodes.

Later in the game I sometimes do think about whether to blast a Fireball on a conveniently placed pack or try to line them up and use a Bolt of Fire instead.

After getting Fire Storm the noise doesn't really matter anymore, at least with Vehumet who keeps you at good MP level, as getting the monsters come to you is just a convenience. Although I tend to keep an eye on an escape route, but isn't that the case with all the characters?

[dynast]

You can ood-stab! You can also exclude sleeping monsters, summon a screen worth of help, drop a cloud/storm from out of LoS...

You can do that with or without noise, whats your point? you think you can OOD an entire mob of creatures one at a time and you will never miss, miscast or the targets will never survive to scream? maybe if you are OODing orcs on d:3...
Is that your point? that spell noise is good because it prevents people from casting spells on sleeping targets? because it doesnt.
Aslo you cannot throw clouds from out of los unless you have darkness and veh or use firestorm.

My point is that it does not deal extra damage and it requires you to find a sleeping mob, which encourages exploring.

[dynast]

I've never thought of spell noise being a big factor on how I play conjurers. I never pick up Lightning Bolt though, but that's because for me Fire >= Earth > Cold >> everything else.

I'm partial to Conjurer background though, so Battlesphere + Magic Dart or IMB is where it's at for a long stretch of the game, and noise is only a factor there if the IMB explodes.

Later in the game I sometimes do think about whether to blast a Fireball on a conveniently placed pack or try to line them up and use a Bolt of Fire instead.

After getting Fire Storm the noise doesn't really matter anymore, at least with Vehumet who keeps you at good MP level, as getting the monsters come to you is just a convenience. Although I tend to keep an eye on an escape route, but isn't that the case with all the characters?

So everything you said after the "I've never thought of spell noise being a big factor on how I play conjurers" until the firestorm part contradicts it.

[Sar]

You can do that with or without noise

It's not as satisfying as waking an enemy with an ood in the face, and the only thing they can see is one or two more approaching!

Edit:

until the firestorm part contradicts it

Would you propose making 9s silent? That would be both very questionable in a game where sound mechanics actually exist, and would also probably be a power boost as well (possibly desirable as many people consider 9s to be bad, though that might be only because of XP requirement).

[dynast]

Would you propose making 9s silent? That would be both very questionable in a game where sound mechanics actually exist, and would also probably be a power boost as well (possibly desirable as many people consider 9s to be bad, though that might be only because of XP requirement).

No i wouldnt, i think you misunderstood.

I would propose to at least reduce the noise of fire ball, lighting bolt and lrd.

Most summons (this includes lighting spire) makes no noise, why these basic book spells should?

[Sar]

Lightning Spire should probably be noisy since it's essentially a single school level 4 lightning bolt (well, it's also weaker but it's still good).

[bcadren]

Aren't Poisonous/Freezing Clouds really quiet? I also remember not-lightning Bolts being quiet as well.

All spells have a 'casting noise' which is generally equal to spell level of the spell; meaning spells that are level 8 or 9 can be heard farther than you can see. [Excluding places with negative ambient noise (Crypt, Slime Pits and Tomb) noise pretty much equals how far away things can hear it; with walls, etc. it's more complicated than that, but...basically. Spells that are noisy (Considerably louder than melee attacks) - [How Far Away it Can be Heard]:

• Apportation (Orb of Zot only) - 30
• Chain Lightning - 25
• Ball Lightning - 25
• Lightning Bolt - 25
• (Delayed) Fireball - 15
• Dragon's Call - 15
• Excruciating Wounds -15
• Fire Storm - 20-25 (depends on explosion radius)
• Forceful Dismissal - 15
• Fulminant Prism (When it Explodes) - 20
• Glaciate -25
• Inner Flame (if/when monster explodes) - 15 (small explosion) - 20 (large explosion)
• Iskerun's Mystic Blast (only if it explodes) - 10
• Lee's Rapid Deconstruction - 15-25 (depends on explosion radius)
• Malign Gateway - 10
• Meph Cloud - 15
• Orb of Destruction - 40 (When two orbs collide)
• Passage of Golubria - 8 (at the site of each portal when they 'pop' closed)
• Portal Projectile - 0-14 (louder than normal Melee if used with Arbalest [7], Triple Crossbow [10] or Large Rocks [14]); simply using these weapons is that loud though.
• Shatter - 30
• Tornado - (5-20) [generally 15] (depends on Radius).

Additionally a few spells are special cased to be completely silent:

• Invisibility
• Ensorcelled Hibernation
• Passwall

Notably a Melee attack can TECHNICALLY be much louder than that, because instead of fixed damage it's "Noise_Factor (depends on weapon) * Damage/400" for the noisiest weapon (UC) every 8 damage done emits 3 noise; so an 80 damage hit would be as loud as shatter.

For those that are curious:

• Noisy Randart - 20
• Shield of the Gong - 40
• Singing Sword - 35
• "Door Creaks Loudly" - 10
• Alarm Traps, Sentinel's Horn - 40
• Scroll of Noise - 25
• Player Shout - 12

[duvessa]

Notably a Melee attack can TECHNICALLY be much louder than that, because instead of fixed damage it's "Noise_Factor (depends on weapon) * Damage/400" for the noisiest weapon (UC) every 8 damage done emits 3 noise; so an 80 damage hit would be as loud as shatter.

this was true in ancient versions but melee noise is capped to 12 now

[Arrhythmia]

Notably a Melee attack can TECHNICALLY be much louder than that, because instead of fixed damage it's "Noise_Factor (depends on weapon) * Damage/400" for the noisiest weapon (UC) every 8 damage done emits 3 noise; so an 80 damage hit would be as loud as shatter.

this was true in ancient versions but melee noise is capped to 12 now

That's a shame. I love the idea of punching a dude so hard it is mistaken for a shifting of the tectonic plates.

[Sprucery]

That's a shame. I love the idea of punching a dude so hard it is mistaken for a shifting of the tectonic plates.

Yeah, I mean, cast shatter, shatter a dude's jaw, what's the difference? :)

[duvessa]

Notably a Melee attack can TECHNICALLY be much louder than that, because instead of fixed damage it's "Noise_Factor (depends on weapon) * Damage/400" for the noisiest weapon (UC) every 8 damage done emits 3 noise; so an 80 damage hit would be as loud as shatter.

this was true in ancient versions but melee noise is capped to 12 now

That's a shame. I love the idea of punching a dude so hard it is mistaken for a shifting of the tectonic plates.

don't worry, thanks to the great, hidden, not spoilery at all "ambient noise" value that's different for every branch, you can still go to tomb, bump into a guardian mummy with your staff of conjuration, and wake up the whole fucking planet

[bel]

Cloud spells are very quiet (except mephitic). The OP is good stream-of-consciousness-I-don't-care-about-punctuation though.

[Aule]

I would be very irked if spell noise were removed. I count on it! Don't include me in your list of people who are "scared" by spell noise. As far as I am concerned (and you can bet it's also true for any Qazlal follower), the bring-em-on and blast-em-to-hell approach is infinitely more daring and FUN than playing a game of hide the weasel.

Why just today, my OgWz got Marked on Swamp:4 and I decided to bunker down in a line between trees to take on the party. You can watch it if you are interested and know how to play it back: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Aule/2015-07-11.23:19:55.ttyrec

(I don't know how.)

I often think certain elements of this game make it far too hard, and I get annoyed when people clamor to make it harder, but this is tactical, man, not something that is intrinsically hard.

[dynast]

I would be very irked if spell noise were removed. I count on it! Don't include me in your list of people who are "scared" by spell noise. As far as I am concerned (and you can bet it's also true for any Qazlal follower), the bring-em-on and blast-em-to-hell approach is infinitely more daring and FUN than playing a game of hide the weasel.

Thats subjective.

I dont like how spell noise makes the player adopt one of these two behaviours, there should be a middle ground, spells should have similar noise value and this includes summoning.
Spell noise shouldnt be a determinating factor of which spells a spellcaster may want to learn. For example, imagine if lighting spire made as much noise as lighting bolt, suddenly the spell becomes a bad idea to learn, or maybe a good idea if you are a MuSu of sif and can just channel summons all day.

[mps]

reason #638 that conjurations < summons...

[Sar]

Spell noise shouldnt be a determinating factor of which spells a spellcaster may want to learn.

Why?

imagine if lighting spire made as much noise as lighting bolt, suddenly the spell becomes a bad idea to learn

I would still learn and use it, but that would change the "when" to use it for me.

[dynast]

Why?

I would still learn and use it, but that would change the "when" to use it for me.

I know its a cheap trick but lets switch from spells to weapons for a moment to see if you can finally understand my point and then just choose to agree or disagree with it.
You have a small silent axe and a big noisy axe, for the most part you go around with the small axe because you dont need the big axe to kill stuff and using it would only put you on a bad situation that you dont need to be in although the small axe is not nearly as effective as the big axe, slowing your progress, or instead you want the big axe because you can handle the trouble it can cause, why should it cause that much trouble anyways?

If you are strong enough to use a spell not having to care about the noise it makes why should it make that much noise, or if you cant and therefore cannot use the spell or feel that you dont have to then that spell loses its appeal based on noise.
If i can kill things with shock why should i cast lighting bolt? if my canine and ice beasts can handle the situation why should i put a loud lighting spire in the mix? if i can kill this mob with a single lighting bolt why should i spend 5 shocks instead?

[Sar]

But a lot of really good spells are quiet. Bolt spells that aren't lightning bolt, orb of destruction (unless it collides with another). I guess I just don't get it, sorry.

[ontoclasm]

Being noisy does not make spells unusable. It makes them risky in some situations. LBolt is usually worth the noise, but if you feel unsafe, you may want to use something else.

Also, "I can probably handle the things this spell will attract" is different from "this spell is quiet and will thus attract nothing."

[duvessa]

But a lot of really good spells are quiet. Bolt spells that aren't lightning bolt, orb of destruction (unless it collides with another).

neither of those are quiet...

[Sar]

I remember bof being "almost silent", and with ood I was able to launch it with sleeping monsters on screen without waking them up. Perhaps the impact sound is actually loud? At least it's not centered at your position.

[dynast]

Balancing the noise of spells wouldnt make any spells stronger or weaker(except maybe for summons) but would make some combos have a less annoying progression.

[dynast]

fulminating prism, oods and such make noise on impact/explosion.

[Chicken]

The unfortunate effects of the noise of a fire storm are best remedied by ... another fire storm.

I dunno, sometimes you just think it's funny to wake up the whole dungeon, especially when you can cast those spells.

[WingedEspeon]

When I played AE spell nose way a pain because one lightning bolt wakes up THE ENTIRE FLOOR. Which is doubly bad as shok is level 1 and has fallen off by the time you reach lair, static discharge is still crap even after being lowered to lvl 3, and by lair there is a good chance you starting spells are your only strong killing spells.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

When I played AE spell nose way a pain because one lightning bolt wakes up THE ENTIRE FLOOR. Which is doubly bad as shok is level 1 and has fallen off by the time you reach lair, static discharge is still crap even after being lowered to lvl 3, and by lair there is a good chance you starting spells are your only strong killing spells.

I've had best success with AE chars by training up a melee weapon quite early on, usually around getting Shock to (or close to) max power, so in my book it's a melee background with some useful guaranteed utility spells.

[tabstorm]

Conjurations are really powerful, especially the Air school. It's important to handicap the higher-level damage spells by making them noisy in addition to having many of them be 2-school and require a ton of XP, otherwise they would just be overpowered.

:^)

[Sar]

Static Discharge is pretty good, actually.

[jejorda2]

It can be a pain in lair with all the plants around, but Static Discharge is great against things that have defenses or come in groups.

[dynast]

Conjurations are really powerful, especially the Air school. It's important to handicap the higher-level damage spells by making them noisy in addition to having many of them be 2-school and require a ton of XP, otherwise they would just be overpowered.

:^)

Make them weaker then, not noisy.

Static Discharge is pretty good, actually.

Specially on a pure spellcaster tengu without rElec.

[Sar]

rElec doesn't matter, yes. On a Tengu you can get a really powerful LBolt really early because lol +3 apts to Air and Conj, and who cares about noise when you are one-two shotting everything?

Also tabstorm was being ironic, hence ":^)".

[dynast]

Thats not the face of irony.

[jejorda2]

Conjurations are really powerful, especially the Air school. It's important to handicap the higher-level damage spells by making them noisy in addition to having many of them be 2-school and require a ton of XP, otherwise they would just be overpowered.

:^)

Make them weaker then, not noisy.

Having more ways that things can be different is better than having fewer ways.

I would be all for making long blades quieter than other weapons for the same damage, or making axes noisier (instead of less damaging) to account for cleaving.

I think marking the area on the map that has heard something you did in the last turn would be a good addition. I only use the hp bar for gauging poison damage, so replacing that with a noise meter and changing the poison status indicator to Pois(14) (where the number is the expected lowest hp from current poison) would be a great change in my book.

But setting all spells to the same noise level to reduce tactical concerns is not an effective way to increase the number of tactical decisions in the game.

[dynast]

Tom Clancy's Stone Soup.

[dynast]

I would be all for making long blades quieter than other weapons for the same damage, or making axes noisier (instead of less damaging) to account for cleaving.

this was true in ancient versions but melee noise is capped to 12 now

Its a dumb mechanic that encourages players to use smaller/weaker weapons to kill things, making the game slow and tedious.

[tabstorm]

That actually was an ironic post. I think the noise from air spells (in particular lightning bolt) is totally overkill considering their poor accuracy and other gimmicks like more or less requiring standing next to enemies (lightning bolt and shock if you want a bounce, static discharge, this sort of defeats the point of conjuration imo) or possibly killing you (ball lightning). With Ice or Fire spells I never really think about noise but with Air it is very noticeable since the entire floor is awake once I cast lightning bolt, and it is a lot less efficient per-MP than fire spells or Ice spells. It's not as bad as earth for mp efficiency but at least earth spells won't wake up the entire floor unless you use LRD a lot.

[Siegurt]

Well, entire floor is exaggeration, it is a pretty big area.

However tornado + cbl at the vault:5 wecome party is absolutely hilarious, seriously.