Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Executioners)


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 293

Joined: Tuesday, 25th October 2011, 05:04

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 01:06

Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Executioners)

Berder wrote:A simple way to make execs more dangerous to high-AC chars, without making them much more dangerous to low-AC chars, is to combine their multiple attacks into a single one. Instead of 30,10,10, just have them hit once for 45.

When I hear the word "executioner" I don't think of a fellow that slaps you fifty times, I think of a fellow that beheads you with one blow of an axe.

Clearly you're not familiar with history. Real executioner's axes were dull as hell because there was no reason to sharpen them. That fellow on the block isn't going anywhere, so you just keep whacking until it sticks. Back on topic though, I don't really approve. The abundance of hellfire and torment already makes AC and shields ineffective. There should be at least one enemy that rewards you for building defenses.

Spoiler: show
Medieval war axes were basically thin hammers. They didn't cut through flesh very effectively, but they could break a lot of bones at once. If you wanted to cut something, you could use a sword...if you had one. And you probably wouldn't, considering swords were expensive side-arms for most Europe's history.

For this message the author File200 has received thanks: 3
Arrhythmia, duvessa, Pollen_Golem

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 03:53

Re: Buff Executioners

File200 wrote:
Berder wrote:A simple way to make execs more dangerous to high-AC chars, without making them much more dangerous to low-AC chars, is to combine their multiple attacks into a single one. Instead of 30,10,10, just have them hit once for 45.

When I hear the word "executioner" I don't think of a fellow that slaps you fifty times, I think of a fellow that beheads you with one blow of an axe.

Clearly you're not familiar with history. Real executioner's axes were dull as hell because there was no reason to sharpen them. That fellow on the block isn't going anywhere, so you just keep whacking until it sticks. Back on topic though, I don't really approve. The abundance of hellfire and torment already makes AC and shields ineffective. There should be at least one enemy that rewards you for building defenses.

Sh and ev are just as effective against a single high damage attack as they are against several low damage attacks. Consolidating into a single attack reduces the effectiveness of AC against executioners, but does not reduce the effectiveness of sh and ev. In fact it makes sh significantly more effective.

Medieval war axes were basically thin hammers. They didn't cut through flesh very effectively, but they could break a lot of bones at once. If you wanted to cut something, you could use a sword...if you had one. And you probably wouldn't, considering swords were expensive side-arms for most Europe's history.

Judicial decapitations were performed with a purpose-made https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executioner%27s_sword . Executioners also executed people by hanging.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_axe . War axes may have a thin hammer or spike on the non-bladed side, which was used against armored targets, but the blade was sharp for cutting flesh.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

For this message the author Berder has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 293

Joined: Tuesday, 25th October 2011, 05:04

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 04:31

Re: Buff Executioners

Berder wrote:
Medieval war axes were basically thin hammers. They didn't cut through flesh very effectively, but they could break a lot of bones at once. If you wanted to cut something, you could use a sword...if you had one. And you probably wouldn't, considering swords were expensive side-arms for most Europe's history.

Judicial decapitations were performed with a purpose-made https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executioner%27s_sword . Executioners also executed people by hanging.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_axe . War axes may have a thin hammer or spike on the non-bladed side, which was used against armored targets, but the blade was sharp for cutting flesh.

Medieval Warfare is a pretty muddy topic with few reliable first-hand accounts. It's made worse by a sort of "Selection Bias," especially regarding weapons. See, the weapons that survived from that period are the cream of the crop. They're the ones that didn't break in battle and didn't get turned into scrap or melted. Those executioner's blades and other ceremonial weapons don't represent the average quality of weapons from those days, much less the ones used in wars. We have abundant records of high-quality weapons and clean executions because those were things held and carried out by the nobility--the most literate people of the day. My sister is a history major who specializes in English and French history, and she explained all this to me more clearly than I could.

Regarding war axes...those were pretty rare, honestly. The evidence that they were used for bludgeoning rather than cutting is circumstantial, and based on partial remains. A bigger part of it, though, is how we define axes. You can look at two weapons from the same period and see that one of them still sharp, while one is too dull to cut anything. So you call the sharp one an axe and the dull one a hammer without realizing that both of those weapons were called one thing when they were made, and were designed for the same general purpose. If you want to know more I could ask my sister any questions you have.

For this message the author File200 has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, duvessa

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 05:31

Re: Buff Executioners

File200 wrote:Regarding war axes...those were pretty rare, honestly. The evidence that they were used for bludgeoning rather than cutting is circumstantial, and based on partial remains. A bigger part of it, though, is how we define axes. You can look at two weapons from the same period and see that one of them still sharp, while one is too dull to cut anything. So you call the sharp one an axe and the dull one a hammer without realizing that both of those weapons were called one thing when they were made, and were designed for the same general purpose. If you want to know more I could ask my sister any questions you have.

Are you suggesting that in medieval times it was too expensive or difficult to sharpen an axe on a whetstone? Or that for axes meant to be used on flesh, the combatants somehow preferred them to be dull? A more likely explanation would be that the dull axe was in fact a hammer, or possibly a blunted training weapon.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 05:38

Re: Buff Executioners

There's a reason the guillotine was considered a humanitarian invention.
take it easy

For this message the author Arrhythmia has received thanks:
File200

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 293

Joined: Tuesday, 25th October 2011, 05:04

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 05:59

Re: Buff Executioners

Berder wrote:
File200 wrote:Regarding war axes...those were pretty rare, honestly. The evidence that they were used for bludgeoning rather than cutting is circumstantial, and based on partial remains. A bigger part of it, though, is how we define axes. You can look at two weapons from the same period and see that one of them still sharp, while one is too dull to cut anything. So you call the sharp one an axe and the dull one a hammer without realizing that both of those weapons were called one thing when they were made, and were designed for the same general purpose. If you want to know more I could ask my sister any questions you have.

Are you suggesting that in medieval times it was too expensive or difficult to sharpen an axe on a whetstone? Or that for axes meant to be used on flesh, the combatants somehow preferred them to be dull? A more likely explanation would be that the dull axe was in fact a hammer, or possibly a blunted training weapon.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that it didn't matter if the "axe" was sharp, because crushing ribs killed people just as well. You're obviously going to sharpen your axe when you need to cut things or split wood. (Although it's true that most peasants didn't own fine-grained stones suitable for sharpening tools. They had to use coarse stones or hope that someone they knew had a proper whetstone.)

And when I say that one tool is "Dull" I don't mean that it was made without an edge. I just mean that it's too dull to have been designed for cutting flesh. It still has an edge, and if you worked on it for a while, it would be a proper cutting tool.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 293

Joined: Tuesday, 25th October 2011, 05:04

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 06:01

Re: Buff Executioners

Arrhythmia wrote:There's a reason the guillotine was considered a humanitarian invention.

It can't be stressed enough that clean executions were the exception, not the rule back then. Which was kind of my point with that whole derail.

For this message the author File200 has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8748

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 06:15

Re: Buff Executioners

i hear they used to set people on fire

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 293

Joined: Tuesday, 25th October 2011, 05:04

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 06:21

Re: Buff Executioners

duvessa wrote:i hear they used to set people on fire

That was pretty rare. There were accounts of people being burned at the stake in England pre-15th century, but they can't be corroborated and a lot are suspected to be fictional. Accounts of people being burned after that are even more sparse.

For this message the author File200 has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 06:43

Re: Buff Executioners

The guillotine apparently replaced being beaten to death with a club on the Catherine wheel. Let's just say there were some methods of execution that were more brutal than others. Decapitation, however, was always one of the least tortuous methods, and was therefore often reserved for nobility or warrior castes. The executioner was expected to cut through the neck with one stroke, though in some noted cases it did take more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapitation . Certain particular cases where it took several strokes are often mentioned because they are exceptional; if it was the norm, they wouldn't be famous for it.

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that it didn't matter if the "axe" was sharp, because crushing ribs killed people just as well.

That's unlikely. A sharp weapon is always going to be better at causing injury. If it's sharp, it can still crush ribs, but can also slice through muscle and cartilage and leather armor with much less effort.

(Although it's true that most peasants didn't own fine-grained stones suitable for sharpening tools. They had to use coarse stones or hope that someone they knew had a proper whetstone.)

You assert that based on what. Peasants used lots of sharp tools, such as knives, scythes, axes, adzes, shears, etc. They'd have plenty of reason and need to keep some whetstones and grindstones around.

Why are we talking about average peasants, anyway, or alleged dull war axes? A headsman would normally use a specialized axe or sword to behead someone, and it would definitely be fairly sharp. It would be crazy for the executioner to attempt to sever the convict's head with a club designed for breaking ribs.


File200 wrote:
duvessa wrote:i hear they used to set people on fire

That was pretty rare. There were accounts of people being burned at the stake in England pre-15th century, but they can't be corroborated and a lot are suspected to be fictional. Accounts of people being burned after that are even more sparse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_burning there are many, many cases.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8748

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 07:14

Re: Buff Executioners

wow you know alot of things. my friend steve from school said he made a tazer out of a disposable camera, can you tell me how to do that?

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
scorpionwarrior
User avatar

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 802

Joined: Sunday, 30th March 2014, 21:06

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 14:52

Re: Buff Executioners

duvessa wrote:wow you know alot of things. my friend steve from school said he made a tazer out of a disposable camera, can you tell me how to do that?


I wouldn't steal dildos from that friend.
Comborobin Admin

For this message the author xentronium has received thanks: 4
Arrhythmia, nago, Sar, Sprucery
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 17:13

Re: Buff Executioners

Berder wrote:Certain particular cases where it took several strokes are often mentioned because they are exceptional; if it was the norm, they wouldn't be famous for it.


That pretty clearly doesn't make sense.
take it easy

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 19:41

Re: Buff Executioners

Arrhythmia wrote:
Berder wrote:Certain particular cases where it took several strokes are often mentioned because they are exceptional; if it was the norm, they wouldn't be famous for it.


That pretty clearly doesn't make sense.

Off the top of your head, name a Space Shuttle.

Spoiler: show
I bet you thought of the Challenger. Why? Because it was a famous disaster. Can we conclude, on the basis that the most famous space shuttle you know about exploded, that space shuttles typically explode? Of course not. The Challenger is remarkable because it exploded. If half of all space shuttles exploded, you probably wouldn't know the specific name "Challenger."


Off the top of your head, name an oil tanker.

Spoiler: show
Exxon Valdez? Or maybe you thought of Deepwater Horizon (wasn't a tanker). Both are known because they were disasters. But you wouldn't conclude, because the most famous tanker sank and caused a huge oil spill, that sinking and causing oil spills is what oil tankers normally do.


Off the top of your head, name a nuclear plant.
Spoiler: show
Chernobyl? Maybe Fukushima? Three Mile Island? Most nuclear plants have not been involved in any disaster, but all the ones most people can name have been, unless they happen to live nearby one. It's not in the normal course of business for nuclear plants to have reactor breaches; in fact it's very rare, relative to the global number of nuclear plants.


Off the top of your head, name an airplane flight number.
Spoiler: show
Probably you thought of MH370 or some other airplane involved in a crash or hijacking. Does that mean most flights result in a crash? No, it's just that you've heard of the crashes.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8748

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 19:50

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

off the top of your head name a tavern poster

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1667

Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12

Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 19:52

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

duvessa wrote:off the top of your head name a tavern poster

Spoiler: show
Dowan
You shall never see my color again.

For this message the author dynast has received thanks:
dowan
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 19:53

Re: Buff Executioners

Berder wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:
Berder wrote:Certain particular cases where it took several strokes are often mentioned because they are exceptional; if it was the norm, they wouldn't be famous for it.


That pretty clearly doesn't make sense.

Off the top of your head, name a Space Shuttle.

Spoiler: show
I bet you thought of the Challenger. Why? Because it was a famous disaster. Can we conclude, on the basis that the most famous space shuttle you know about exploded, that space shuttles typically explode? Of course not. The Challenger is remarkable because it exploded. If half of all space shuttles exploded, you probably wouldn't know the specific name "Challenger."


Off the top of your head, name an oil tanker.

Spoiler: show
Exxon Valdez? Or maybe you thought of Deepwater Horizon (wasn't a tanker). Both are known because they were disasters. But you wouldn't conclude, because the most famous tanker sank and caused a huge oil spill, that sinking and causing oil spills is what oil tankers normally do.


Off the top of your head, name a nuclear plant.
Spoiler: show
Chernobyl? Maybe Fukushima? Three Mile Island? Most nuclear plants have not been involved in any disaster, but all the ones most people can name have been, unless they happen to live nearby one. It's not in the normal course of business for nuclear plants to have reactor breaches; in fact it's very rare, relative to the global number of nuclear plants.


Off the top of your head, name an airplane flight number.
Spoiler: show
Probably you thought of MH370 or some other airplane involved in a crash or hijacking. Does that mean most flights result in a crash? No, it's just that you've heard of the crashes.


There's a million fucking reasons why someone would note something aside from "it wasn't what I was expecting".
take it easy

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 20:09

Re: Buff Executioners

Arrhythmia wrote:There's a million fucking reasons why someone would note something aside from "it wasn't what I was expecting".

I'm referring specifically to this passage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapitation#Painlessness
If the headsman's axe or sword was sharp and his aim was precise, decapitation was quick and was presumed to be a relatively painless form of death. If the instrument was blunt or the executioner clumsy, however, multiple strokes might be required to sever the head. The person to be executed was therefore advised to give a gold coin to the headsman to ensure that he did his job with care. Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex, and Mary, Queen of Scots, required three strikes at their respective executions.[9][10] Margaret Pole, 8th Countess of Salisbury, is said to have required up to ten strokes before decapitation was achieved.[11] This particular story may, however, be apocryphal since highly divergent accounts exist. Historian and philosopher David Hume, for example, relates the following about her death:[12]
She refused to lay her head on the block, or submit to a sentence where she had received no trial. She told the executioner, that if he would have her head, he must win it the best way he could: and thus, shaking her venerable grey locks, she ran about the scaffold; and the executioner followed her with his ax, aiming many fruitless blows at her neck before he was able to give the fatal stroke.

The author of the article could only track down two executions that clearly required as many as three strokes. From this we can conclude that three strikes to sever the head was unusual and noteworthy, and ten ridiculous.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 20:16

Re: Buff Executioners

Berder wrote:The author of the article could only track down two executions that clearly required as many as three strokes. From this we can conclude that three strikes to sever the head was unusual and noteworthy, and ten ridiculous.


It's fucking wikipedia.
take it easy

For this message the author Arrhythmia has received thanks:
duvessa

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 20:26

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Do you have a more reliable source? Both examples of three-stroke beheadings are cited; I checked.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 20:36

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Berder wrote:Do you have a more reliable source? Both examples of three-stroke beheadings are cited; I checked.


I'm saying the plural of anecdote isn't data.
take it easy

For this message the author Arrhythmia has received thanks:
scorpionwarrior
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 20:39

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Well, this book on Louis XIV only references Louis XIV here. Clearly monarchy wasn't the norm for early modern Europe, and republics dominated.
take it easy
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 20:40

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Hm, this page only talks about Apollo 11. Clearly, space ships that don't explode are insanely rare, better shut down NASA.
take it easy
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 20:43

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Oh fuck, I found TWO articles about automobiles that didn't explode. Why are we letting the mass murderers at Ford get away with this brutal massacre!!
take it easy

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 21:38

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

That's not how it works. Apollo 11 wasn't noteworthy because it didn't explode, it was noteworthy because it landed the first humans on the moon. Indeed, most spacecraft have not gone to the moon. Louis XIV was noteworthy for being a king, and indeed most people were not kings. Whatever cars you read about were again probably noteworthy for reasons that made them exceptional compared to other cars.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 21:53

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Berder wrote:That's not how it works. Apollo 11 wasn't noteworthy because it didn't explode, it was noteworthy because it landed the first humans on the moon. Indeed, most spacecraft have not gone to the moon. Louis XIV was noteworthy for being a king, and indeed most people were not kings. Whatever cars you read about were again probably noteworthy for reasons that made them exceptional compared to other cars.


Now, apply this logic to your examples.
take it easy
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 318

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 10:16

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 22:35

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Executions were one of the few sources of spectacle for poor people in those days. They wanted to see pain and suffering and executioners were more than happy to oblige. The assumption you're making that a quick death was anywhere close to a priority shows a huge amount of ignorance. http://m.medieval-life-and-times.info/m ... ethods.htm
"No one should have two lives / Now you know my middle names are wrong and right / But baby there's no guidance / When random rules"

For this message the author scorpionwarrior has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 22:50

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Arrhythmia wrote:
Berder wrote:That's not how it works. Apollo 11 wasn't noteworthy because it didn't explode, it was noteworthy because it landed the first humans on the moon. Indeed, most spacecraft have not gone to the moon. Louis XIV was noteworthy for being a king, and indeed most people were not kings. Whatever cars you read about were again probably noteworthy for reasons that made them exceptional compared to other cars.


Now, apply this logic to your examples.

OK: That pair of three-stroke executions were noteworthy because they took so many strokes. That's why they are mentioned as examples of executions that weren't done cleanly. They should not be taken as examples of typical beheadings, which normally took fewer strokes, often just 1.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 22:56

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Berder wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:
Berder wrote:That's not how it works. Apollo 11 wasn't noteworthy because it didn't explode, it was noteworthy because it landed the first humans on the moon. Indeed, most spacecraft have not gone to the moon. Louis XIV was noteworthy for being a king, and indeed most people were not kings. Whatever cars you read about were again probably noteworthy for reasons that made them exceptional compared to other cars.


Now, apply this logic to your examples.

OK: That pair of three-stroke executions were noteworthy because they took so many strokes. That's why they are mentioned as examples of executions that weren't done cleanly. They should not be taken as examples of typical beheadings, which normally took fewer strokes, often just 1.


So, a man who tried to lead a coup d'etat against England, one of the only two woman to hold nobility of her own in 15th century England, and fucking Mary Queen of Scots, are famous for no reasons except botched executions?
take it easy
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 22:58

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

it must own, being able to go through life, able to draw any conclusion you want from any set of data. i wish we were all so lucky
take it easy

For this message the author Arrhythmia has received thanks: 2
duvessa, Lasty

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:04

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Arrhythmia wrote:So, a man who tried to lead a coup d'etat against England, one of the only two woman to hold nobility of her own in 15th century England, and fucking Mary Queen of Scots, are famous for no reasons except botched executions?

In the context of an article about the number of strokes taken to sever the head, they are mentioned not because of their deeds in life but because the execution required so many strokes.

By the way, even if an inexperienced headsman does botch the execution and take two or even three strokes to decapitate a convict: the first blow is going to be fatal unless he misses the neck entirely. There's no surviving a hard axe blow crosswise to the neck. Either it severs the spinal cord or it cuts the jugulars/carotids, depending on the side of the neck struck.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:06

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Berder wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:So, a man who tried to lead a coup d'etat against England, one of the only two woman to hold nobility of her own in 15th century England, and fucking Mary Queen of Scots, are famous for no reasons except botched executions?

In the context of an article about the number of strokes taken to sever the head, they are mentioned not because of their deeds in life but because the execution required so many strokes.


Which executions do you think will end up in an article, the one about Mary Queen of Scots, or the hundreds of others done to some peasant assholes that nobody then or now gave or gives a shit about?
take it easy

For this message the author Arrhythmia has received thanks:
scorpionwarrior
User avatar

Spider Stomper

Posts: 195

Joined: Thursday, 14th November 2013, 18:48

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:07

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

It usually takes more than 1 hit for an executioner to kill a character, even if it is a low AC-caster.
Thus we can conclude it must have been so in the medieval times as well.

For this message the author KittenInMyCerealz has received thanks: 4
Arrhythmia, grisamentum, Pollen_Golem, Sar
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:09

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

KittenInMyCerealz wrote:It usually takes more than 1 hit for an executioner to kill a character, even if it is a low AC-caster.
Thus we can conclude it must have been so in the medieval times as well.


It took my MiBe several hundred hits to die from an executioner. Clearly, I am only mentioning this because it is not the status quo, and every character who makes eye-contact with an executioner is one shot.
take it easy

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:19

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Arrhythmia wrote:Which executions do you think will end up in an article, the one about Mary Queen of Scots, or the hundreds of others done to some peasant assholes that nobody then or now gave or gives a shit about?

Notoriety definitely plays a part - there aren't even records of most of those peasant assholes. Also, in Europe, peasants would have been executed by hanging etc, not by decapitation, which was reserved for nobility.

Anybody whose execution is described in medieval records is likely to be notable in one way or another. But still, Mary and Robert Devereux took an unusual number of strikes to die; that's clearly why they were mentioned. Just to show the text again:

If the headsman's axe or sword was sharp and his aim was precise, decapitation was quick and was presumed to be a relatively painless form of death. If the instrument was blunt or the executioner clumsy, however, multiple strokes might be required to sever the head. The person to be executed was therefore advised to give a gold coin to the headsman to ensure that he did his job with care. Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex, and Mary, Queen of Scots, required three strikes at their respective executions.[9][10] Margaret Pole, 8th Countess of Salisbury, is said to have required up to ten strokes before decapitation was achieved.[11] This particular story may, however, be apocryphal since highly divergent accounts exist. Historian and philosopher David Hume, for example, relates the following about her death:[12]
She refused to lay her head on the block, or submit to a sentence where she had received no trial. She told the executioner, that if he would have her head, he must win it the best way he could: and thus, shaking her venerable grey locks, she ran about the scaffold; and the executioner followed her with his ax, aiming many fruitless blows at her neck before he was able to give the fatal stroke
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:21

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Berder wrote:Notoriety definitely plays a part - there aren't even records of most of those peasant assholes. Anybody whose execution is described in historical records is likely to be notable in one way or another. But still, Mary and Robert Devereux took an unusual number of strikes to die; that's clearly why they were mentioned. Just to show the text again:


Much like the reason everyone here is jumping down your throat is because they haven't seen the light yet and not because you're being an ignorant chode.
take it easy

For this message the author Arrhythmia has received thanks:
duvessa
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 318

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 10:16

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:21

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Berder if you would actually like to gain some perspective on the medieval justice system while reading a great story I highly recommend http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2610/2610-h/2610-h.htm
"No one should have two lives / Now you know my middle names are wrong and right / But baby there's no guidance / When random rules"

For this message the author scorpionwarrior has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:27

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Arrhythmia wrote:Much like the reason everyone here is jumping down your throat is because they haven't seen the light yet and not because you're being an ignorant chode.

That has a lot more to do with the social dynamics here than with any question of fact. Also, when you say "everyone," let's be clear: the discussion has been between you and me.
Last edited by Berder on Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:30, edited 1 time in total.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

For this message the author Berder has received thanks: 2
dowan, ThreeInvisibleDucks
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:28

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

berder, you are sincerely [MOD EDIT: removed insult], my man
Last edited by Lasty on Tuesday, 21st July 2015, 15:11, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed "retarded"
take it easy
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 318

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 10:16

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:30

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Berder wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:Much like the reason everyone here is jumping down your throat is because they haven't seen the light yet and not because you're being an ignorant chode.

That has a lot more to do with the social dynamics here than with any question of fact. When you say "everyone," let's be clear: mainly you.


That's only because file200 and duvessa were smart enough to realize you're only arguing for the sake of arguing and proving your obvious superiority
"No one should have two lives / Now you know my middle names are wrong and right / But baby there's no guidance / When random rules"

For this message the author scorpionwarrior has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, Lasty

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:41

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

scorpionwarrior wrote:That's only because file200 and duvessa were smart enough to realize you're only arguing for the sake of arguing and proving your obvious superiority

For me, it's not about the people, or about establishing who is "superior." It's about what's true and what isn't; superiority of ideas, not of people. I'm not going to change my position or back down just because somebody gets mad at me and starts calling names. If they present evidence stronger than my own, I'll change my mind. If they don't, I won't. I will argue for what I believe to be true, regardless of social pressure.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 318

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 10:16

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:42

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

So do you just not believe anything that was in the first link I posted?
"No one should have two lives / Now you know my middle names are wrong and right / But baby there's no guidance / When random rules"

For this message the author scorpionwarrior has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:45

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

You linked to a work of fiction, the hunchback of notre dame.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 318

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 10:16

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:47

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

"No one should have two lives / Now you know my middle names are wrong and right / But baby there's no guidance / When random rules"

For this message the author scorpionwarrior has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 318

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 10:16

Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 23:49

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

This is all stuff you would learn in any decent medieval history book
"No one should have two lives / Now you know my middle names are wrong and right / But baby there's no guidance / When random rules"

For this message the author scorpionwarrior has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 00:02

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

scorpionwarrior wrote:you missed my first post, then: http://m.medieval-life-and-times.info/m ... ethods.htm

I did miss it. First of all, is that a credible source? The fact it's .info makes me wonder, and it doesn't cite any sources. The opening paragraph is not in neutral language, has some grammatical errors, and goes out of its way to emphasize the cruelty of punishments. For instance:
The cruel and pitiless torturers were induced to inflict the horrors of torture or punishment, including the terrible Execution Methods, on the pitiful prisoners

So this makes me wonder if the article article may be deliberately playing up the gruesomeness of some punishments.

The page mentions many punishments that were indeed slow and brutal, which I earlier acknowledged in reference to the Catherine wheel. Those aren't in question. On the subject of decapitation it has this to say:
Prisoners were sentenced to having their head struck off their body. The axe was used for this purpose which resulted in the head often being roughly hacked off the victim, requiring several blows. When clemency was granted a sword was used which removed the head by one swift cut.

The page provides no source for this claim. It doesn't make a lot of sense: there is no mechanical reason why an axe couldn't be just as capable as a sword, when it comes to cutting off the head in one blow (provided it has a long edge to it, e.g. a bearded axe, which was used in England). In many areas, decapitations were performed with specially designed headsman's axes, which, being purpose made, should be efficient at the task. Finland has an official national execution axe, for example.

Here is the axe used at the Tower of London: http://onthetudortrail.com/Blog/wp-cont ... e-copy.jpg As you can see, the blade is significantly wider than a human neck (based on the chopping block behind it), and it appears to be large and probably heavy. It looks efficient at chopping heads.
Last edited by Berder on Sunday, 19th July 2015, 00:13, edited 1 time in total.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 293

Joined: Tuesday, 25th October 2011, 05:04

Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 00:12

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Why has this gone on so long? Besides primary accounts, the only worthwhile discussion of history comes from books and scholarly articles. Wikipedia is neither of those. Do you know the reason Professors tell you not to cite it? It's not just because the articles are lacking in detail, or use unreliable sources. They give extraordinarily biased descriptions of events and play fast and loose with the details they include.

This shouldn't be a surprise, considering the editors are mostly unpaid basement-dwellers who devote their time to stupid edit wars and Sci Fi trivia. One of my close friends from high school was an editor, and he gave me a firsthand look at how disgusting the editing process. Did you know that so-called "High-level contributors" can edit the edit history? I didn't, until I was shown the real history of Strom Thurmond's Wikipedia page. Someone with high-level access was anonymously editing the page to remove the fact that he switched to the Republican Party in 1964 because of his opposition to the voting rights act. Apparently, it suited their agenda for a Democrat to be incredibly racist. This nonsense went on for a while, and for a time the page had his decision to switch parties at the top, and all of his racist ideas buried in other headers like "Ideology" instead of being given their own section. At the same time, Democrat Robert Byrd's page had every racist thing he ever said or did prominently displayed at the top of the article, while the fact that he has a near perfect record of voting in favor of affirmative action and equal opportunity wasn't even displayed.

That was back in 2009-2010, though, and the website has gotten a lot better. The fact remains that these articles are extraordinarily biased and, in most cases, will leave you with less understanding of the topic after reading it. (Articles about math and equation derivations are perfectly fine, though.)

With that said, I'm far from being qualified to make affirmative statements about European History. If you want better sources, I would have to scan some of the books I have lying around here, or ask my sister to send me the scholarly articles that she bought. I won't do any of those things, though, because it's far too much to trouble for such an insignificant topic.

PS buff Executioners, for real.

For this message the author File200 has received thanks: 6
Arrhythmia, duvessa, KittenInMyCerealz, nago, Sar, scorpionwarrior
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4334

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 00:12

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Berder wrote:Finland has an official national execution axe, for example.

Finland does not have an official national execution axe.
...MiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}
DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu
{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWr

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 00:17

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

Sprucery wrote:
Berder wrote:Finland has an official national execution axe, for example.

Finland does not have an official national execution axe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_p ... in_Finland

In the 19th century and before, as in the other Nordic countries, beheading by axe was the most common method of execution. In the 20th century, firing squads were used. The official beheading axe of Finland is today on display at Museum of Crime, Vantaa.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 00:25

Re: Clearly you're not familiar with history (was: Execution

File200 wrote:(Articles about math and equation derivations are perfectly fine, though.)


They really aren't. While technically accurate, if you want to improve your understanding on basically any subject in math, you should be looking at literally any other source. The math pages are some of the most poorly written pages on the site.
take it easy

For this message the author Arrhythmia has received thanks:
daggaz
Next

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.