Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 18:55

Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

I know fun is subjective but I find it really weird when a player posts "This is probably the funniest post I've ever read on here, damn." when another player describes his experience. And actually that was my experience with Zin too.

Edit. I reported duvessa's post, let's see how fair moderators are here. Can they edit posts which they thanked?

For this message the author Sandman25 has received thanks:
Berder

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 19:08

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

Keep in mind that "fair" isn't the same as "doing what I want them to do". A lot of insulting posts by many parties go unmoderated, and while it's possible to take a lot of things as an insult, that's not the same as saying that the thing you feel is an insult was out of line.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1694

Joined: Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 20:34

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 19:10

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

Hmm... snark to content ratio approaches infinity%, with an obvious implied insult to boot. I get board warnings, duvessa gets thanked. From the same person no less!

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 19:11

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

Lasty wrote:Keep in mind that "fair" isn't the same as "doing what I want them to do". A lot of insulting posts by many parties go unmoderated, and while it's possible to take a lot of things as an insult, that's not the same as saying that the thing you feel is an insult was out of line.


This is probably the most unsurprising post I've ever read on here, damn.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 19:46

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

dowan wrote:Hmm... snark to content ratio approaches infinity%, with an obvious implied insult to boot. I get board warnings, duvessa gets thanked. From the same person no less!

Sandman25 wrote:This is probably the most unsurprising post I've ever read on here, damn.

dowan, your post was in the GDD forum rather than the CYC forum, and they're moderated differently, as has been pointed out many times. If CYC was moderated to the same standards as GDD, we'd have to delete almost every post in CYC.

Sandman25, it's not reasonable to expect moderation to remove any disagreement or to stand by and allow discussion to spiral into a flaming mess, but finding the right balance is hard. As I said to you in PM, Berder's post had elements that, regardless of your feelings about Berder himself or the points he's trying to make here, fall into universally recognized patterns of comedy. Saying it's funny isn't inaccurate on a fairly objective level. If Berder chooses to feel insulted by it, or if you choose to feel insulted on his behalf, that's unfortunate. There's no guarantee that reading posts here (or any other interpersonal interaction) won't make you feel insulted. As moderators, we try to make sure that people are staying within some level of reasonable boundaries, but that's a challenging proposition: we don't want to censor too much and we don't want to allow discussion to metastasize or to have the community be a place that discourages reasonable posts. At some level that comes down to judgment calls. If you feel that I made the wrong one, I invite you to bring it up with another moderator, who may feel that I handled the situation incorrectly.

Edit: I didn't close the moderation report that Sandman25 opened, in case other mods wanted to look at it.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks:
Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8547

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 19:57

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

dowan wrote:Hmm... snark to content ratio approaches infinity%, with an obvious implied insult to boot. I get board warnings, duvessa gets thanked. From the same person no less!
I have a board warning (and "unofficial warnings") too. It's easy to avoid them so long as you avoid giving advice about crawl, saying anything bad about dpeg or things associated with dpeg, or mentioning gamergate in a positive light (in which case you deserve it). Those are the only things people get warned or banned for. I guess you might also get banned for telling galehar or danr that their ideas are bad, if they ever become active again, but that seems unlikely. There aren't actually any consequences for shitposting in GDD except for a higher thank count.
It's tricky to know this stuff since the moderation team refuses to publish any of their rules, you have to figure it out from observation. It definitely took me a while to figure it out. I still have trouble predicting when a post is going to get edited to say something stupid, for example. But you can hedge your bets by posting something that's stupid in the first place, like this.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1694

Joined: Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 20:34

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 19:58

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

Lasty wrote:
dowan wrote:Hmm... snark to content ratio approaches infinity%, with an obvious implied insult to boot. I get board warnings, duvessa gets thanked. From the same person no less!

Sandman25 wrote:This is probably the most unsurprising post I've ever read on here, damn.

dowan, your post was in the GDD forum rather than the CYC forum, and they're moderated differently, as has been pointed out many times. If CYC was moderated to the same standards as GDD, we'd have to delete almost every post in CYC.

Sandman25, it's not reasonable to expect moderation to remove any disagreement or to stand by and allow discussion to spiral into a flaming mess, but finding the right balance is hard. As I said to you in PM, Berder's post had elements that, regardless of your feelings about Berder himself or the points he's trying to make here, fall into universally recognized patterns of comedy. Saying it's funny isn't inaccurate on a fairly objective level. If Berder chooses to feel insulted by it, or if you choose to feel insulted on his behalf, that's unfortunate. There's no guarantee that reading posts here (or any other interpersonal interaction) won't make you feel insulted. As moderators, we try to make sure that people are staying within some level of reasonable boundaries, but that's a challenging proposition: we don't want to censor too much and we don't want to allow discussion to metastasize or to have the community be a place that discourages reasonable posts. At some level that comes down to judgment calls. If you feel that I made the wrong one, I invite you to bring it up with another moderator, who may feel that I handled the situation incorrectly.

Edit: I didn't close the moderation report that Sandman25 opened, in case other mods wanted to look at it.


This is by far the funniest post I've ever read. Good one Lasty.

Now admit it. That was a rude and insulting thing to say, regardless of whether I personally disagree with your explanation.

For this message the author dowan has received thanks: 3
byrel, rockygargoyle, Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:00

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

Lasty wrote:Edit: I didn't close the moderation report that Sandman25 opened, in case other mods wanted to look at it.


The report can be cancelled, your PM helped me to understand that duvessa wasn't trying to insult Berder.

duvessa, sorry, if I insulted you. Some misunderstanding as usual :(

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:03

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

dowan wrote:This is by far the funniest post I've ever read. Good one Lasty.

Now admit it. That was a rude and insulting thing to say, regardless of whether I personally disagree with your explanation.


Thanked incidentally. But there was nothing funny in Lasty's post, that's different from that post in another thread.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1694

Joined: Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 20:34

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:04

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

I'm sorry, but how is this "objectively humorous"

Berder wrote:This, however, is actually slightly significant. I have been glad for Zin Vit giving me nutrition in the past. It may not be much, but if you add it up over all the times you use it, it comes out to a few rations. Many Zin blaster casters are indeed tightly squeezed for food due to the conduct of not eating the corpses of intelligent beings.

I speak from experience, having won both an OpWz and an OpSu of Zin (among other Zin wins), both of whom I remember as being a bit tight on food during lair branches. I've even used Vit to take me out of Starving once or twice.


It's just a player expressing their experience. I guess someone needs to explain the joke, I must be too dumb to get it.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:05

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

duvessa wrote:
dowan wrote:Hmm... snark to content ratio approaches infinity%, with an obvious implied insult to boot. I get board warnings, duvessa gets thanked. From the same person no less!
I have a board warning (and "unofficial warnings") too. It's easy to avoid them so long as you avoid giving advice about crawl, saying anything bad about dpeg or things associated with dpeg, or mentioning gamergate in a positive light (in which case you deserve it). Those are the only things people get warned or banned for. I guess you might also get banned for telling galehar or danr that their ideas are bad, if they ever become active again, but that seems unlikely. There aren't actually any consequences for shitposting in GDD except for a higher thank count.
It's tricky to know this stuff since the moderation team refuses to publish any of their rules, you have to figure it out from observation. It definitely took me a while to figure it out. I still have trouble predicting when a post is going to get edited to say something stupid, for example. But you can hedge your bets by posting something that's stupid in the first place, like this.


One time MarvinPA gave me a day long probie for telling the dude who was saying "sexism doesn't matter 'cause the Ottomans enslaved white people" that he was retarded.
take it easy

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:07

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

Sandman25 wrote:The report can be cancelled, your PM helped me to understand that duvessa wasn't trying to insult Berder.

For what it's worth, duvessa might well have been trying to insult Berder -- I can't read his mind.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 299

Joined: Wednesday, 15th May 2013, 18:04

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:09

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Saying it's funny isn't inaccurate on a fairly objective level.

Literally objectively funny.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1694

Joined: Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 20:34

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:13

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Lasty wrote:For what it's worth, duvessa might well have been trying to insult Berder -- I can't read his mind.


When you thanked it, why did you think you were thanking it? What did you think the joke was? I'm honestly curious, because I cannot see it.

I find it pretty hard to believe that you weren't thanking a contentless insult because it was against someone you have strong feelings against, but of course, I have been wrong before.

For this message the author dowan has received thanks:
Berder

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8547

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:14

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

dowan wrote:I'm sorry, but how is this "objectively humorous"

Berder wrote:This, however, is actually slightly significant. I have been glad for Zin Vit giving me nutrition in the past. It may not be much, but if you add it up over all the times you use it, it comes out to a few rations. Many Zin blaster casters are indeed tightly squeezed for food due to the conduct of not eating the corpses of intelligent beings.

I speak from experience, having won both an OpWz and an OpSu of Zin (among other Zin wins), both of whom I remember as being a bit tight on food during lair branches. I've even used Vit to take me out of Starving once or twice.


It's just a player expressing their experience. I guess someone needs to explain the joke, I must be too dumb to get it.
It's "funny" because the MarvinPA post he's responding to mentioned the vitalisation change ironically, thinking the nutrition from it was so completely insignificant that no one could possibly construe it as a nerf to casters. Berder then construed it as a nerf to casters. Out of context it's less funny, and just someone worrying about food in crawl too much. (Obviously it's not going to seem funny in either way now that I've explained it)

I feel sorry for the good players like mikee and elliptic that have their games, that they were playing for fun, used by other, usually worse players to support those players' preconceived notions. That's the kind of shit that would make me want to play on anonymous accounts, or even offline. I'd hate for sequell's database to go private since FooTV is really cool, but it's an attractive option at that point.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 2
Lasty, nago

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1480

Joined: Monday, 21st November 2011, 07:40

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:25

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

duvessa wrote:I feel sorry for the good players like mikee and elliptic that have their games, that they were playing for fun, used by other, usually worse players to support those players' preconceived notions. That's the kind of shit that would make me want to play on anonymous accounts, or even offline. I'd hate for sequell's database to go private since FooTV is really cool, but it's an attractive option at that point.


If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
Usual account: pblur on kelbi

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:30

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

duvessa wrote:I feel sorry for the good players like mikee and elliptic that have their games, that they were playing for fun, used by other, usually worse players to support those players' preconceived notions. That's the kind of shit that would make me want to play on anonymous accounts, or even offline. I'd hate for sequell's database to go private since FooTV is really cool, but it's an attractive option at that point.


Everyone knows they were playing for fun, they wouldn't get so low win rate (41% and 51%) if they were trying to win. Probably they would even get a streak or two.

Edit. I hope it is not a rule violation to mention online win rate.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:37

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

duvessa wrote:It's easy to avoid them so long as you avoid giving advice about crawl, saying anything bad about dpeg or things associated with dpeg, or mentioning gamergate in a positive light (in which case you deserve it). Those are the only things people get warned or banned for.
(Emphasis mine.)

That's of course exactly how it should be. I would give a shout to everyone who reports people saying bad things about me or about things associated with me. If you ever make it to Berlin, drop me a line -- I'll owe you a beer or two!

For this message the author dpeg has received thanks:
byrel

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1480

Joined: Monday, 21st November 2011, 07:40

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:39

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

I wish there were an alternate thank button labelled chortle...
Usual account: pblur on kelbi

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1694

Joined: Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 20:34

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 20:45

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

It's a good point in some ways, showing an example of a good player playing in a silly way to claim that silly way of playing is good, or to claim that the supposedly good player must not be good for playing in a silly way, is a misuse of statistics, and also obviously suffers from an insufficient sample size.

However, including those statistics in a wider grouping is just going to happen if you do grab a large sample of data. Of course, that would still happen if they played anonymously, so I don't think that's what duvessa was complaining about.

Either way, the misuse of data doesn't make the data inherently bad, and statistics are extremely useful for noticing patterns, when used correctly.

EDIT: I apparently stopped reading after the first paragraph, so I said things that didn't really make sense. They have been removed for your protection

For this message the author dowan has received thanks:
Berder

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1713

Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 21:15

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

duvessa wrote:mentioning gamergate in a positive light


I don't understand which side of gamergame this means. Is it bad to say something positive about the girl who slept with five reviewers to get good ratings for her game, or bad to say something positive about the neckbeards who hate her?

For this message the author Rast has received thanks: 3
rockygargoyle, Sar, Wahaha

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 21:20

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

It's bad to support the band of misogynistic trolls who, among other things, made up and repeated a slander about a woman sleeping with reviewers to get good ratings.

Edit: it's also not allowed to advocate for any other form of online harassment. I note particularly the rampant misogynistic harassment of women online because it is particularly vicious, particularly widespread, and particularly ignored or dismissed.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks: 6
all before, archaeo, Arrhythmia, chequers, emikaela, triorph

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1480

Joined: Monday, 21st November 2011, 07:40

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 21:26

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Lasty wrote:It's bad to support the band of misogynistic trolls who, among other things, made up and repeated a slander about a woman sleeping with reviewers to get good ratings.


Well, to be fair the allegations weren't really invented by the trolls, but rather by her ex. Ex's are sometimes quite nasty and biased. So it goes.

I honestly think a lot of the backlash was directed at the topic of the game. A lot of otakus suffer from depression and it makes them uncomfortable. Hence the start of the circlejerk leading into harassment...
Usual account: pblur on kelbi

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8547

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 21:37

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Oh, fuck

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 6
all before, archaeo, Arrhythmia, byrel, Lasty, thromnambular
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Wednesday, 24th June 2015, 22:38

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

take it easy

For this message the author Arrhythmia has received thanks:
archaeo

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 01:24

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

MarvinPA wrote:
Berder wrote:I wasn't a fan of the singularity spell, but its removal, still, is a nerf to casters, in line with the disturbing recent trend.

I feel like I need to find some other spell to nerf now just to see if it's possible for this self-parody to become any more incredible. (The true reason behind brutal caster nerfs revealed...???)

I suppose this is peachy too and not in any way insulting!

So, just so we're clear, it's fine by the forum rules for me or anyone to refer to any post I don't agree with as "incredible self parody"?
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

For this message the author Berder has received thanks:
Sandman25
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4409

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 03:51

Re: ANOTHER nerf to casters

duvessa wrote:It's tricky to know this stuff since the moderation team refuses to publish any of their rules, you have to figure it out from observation.

it is almost as though they are just some random people who have never actually met each other who decided to say "sure I will help keep the forum from being a complete shithole" and for some reason have not decided to stop visiting the site, and instead of formalizing some kind of shared governance structure are basically making shit up as they go along

In all honesty, it is in many ways hard to know what's acceptable and what's not. Are bad advice and bad game design ideas OK in their forums? I don't know. What about egregiously bad advice or ideas? I don't always know bad advice or bad ideas. Bad ideas get implemented sometimes. Bad advice can yield wins.

How much snark is too much snark, and when does it become harassment? Is it the same when it's a pattern for a poster rather than an uncharacteristic outburst? What should we do when some people just don't much like each other? How should I moderate posts from people who bug the shit out of me? Is it censorship to delete a post that disagrees with a dev's idea if it also says that dev is completely stupid for having it? How much noise should we filter out to keep the signal good?

How much time and energy are the mods expected to put into figuring this stuff out? I ask this somewhat glibly, but there's a nugget of seriousness to it. What are your expectations of the mods?

Anyhow: We don't have some hidden rules-stash to publish; I can't speak for any of the other mods but I basically do not know what I am doing most of the time, and try to do what feels right. Or, at least, least-wrong.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

For this message the author njvack has received thanks: 5
and into, archaeo, Arrhythmia, dpeg, Lasty

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 04:17

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

It doesn't seem right that others (favored by a few of the in-crowd, not naming anybody) can make tons of snide and sarcastic remarks and get nothing for it but thanks, but when you point out a simple fact - - - (self-censored), you get a warning and your post edited. With, I might add, zero advance warning or "informal warning" beforehand - nobody told me that pointing out such factual information was prohibited until I received a formal warning in my inbox.

I think, nvjack that it's easy to confuse what is right or "less-wrong" with what is politically expedient because the abusers are devs or friendly with some devs.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

For this message the author Berder has received thanks: 3
chequers, rockygargoyle, Sandman25

mps

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 886

Joined: Saturday, 3rd January 2015, 22:34

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 05:00

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Facts as I see them:

1. People on this forum are constantly down on the opinions of Berder and Sandman25, often in a mean-spirited and bullying way. I often disagree with Berder and Sandman myself, but I at least respect that they have strong records and that their opinions deserve respect.

2. People who are most vocal in this way often have long but not especially amazing records. They tend to be close to the dev team or prominent members of the irc community.

3. The moderation dynamic that protects this speech can only be accounted for by social relationships, not any concept of fair play or objective assessment of the merits. Even if it's framed as principled objection to comparing records or whatever, this is just another aspect of the power dynamic at play. If it weren't about "record sniping," there'd be some other problem with Berder and/or Sandman25 asserting themselves in a way that makes their antagonists uncomfortable. I would also point out that it shouldn't actually be necessary to make record comparisons, since any reasonably well-informed poster would know what kind of records Berder and Sandman have and post with appropriate level of regard (which isn't much, but which is more than the contempt I regularly see).
Dungeon Crawling Advice tl;dr: Protect ya neck.

For this message the author mps has received thanks: 6
Arrhythmia, Berder, chequers, Rast, rockygargoyle, Sandman25

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 300

Joined: Thursday, 1st May 2014, 13:13

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 05:54

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

hey man, your facts as I see them are 1. subjective impressions about what counts as mean-spirited vs. respectful, 2. a weird insinuation about who's friends with whom that can't be verified without searching the chatlogs and hearts of the devteam and irc community, and 3. a really huge assumption that only one thing can (could? does?) account for the phenomenon you're examining, whatever facts might seem to say otherwise.

mps

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 886

Joined: Saturday, 3rd January 2015, 22:34

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 06:01

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Hey man, I think when people say things like "hey, what's mean-spirited is subjective and you can't prove I'm friends with that guy and there are other facts I won't name here that actually account for what's going on," there's not much more to say.
Dungeon Crawling Advice tl;dr: Protect ya neck.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8547

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 06:13

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

no one is entitled to anything because of their crawl "record", it's a video game. mikee posts here occasionally, you know, he isn't any more deserving of respect than i am, well okay actually he is, but not because of his crawl record. its the case in all moderated spaces that you can be more of a jerk if you happen to be the right person, or direct your jerkery at the right person, this is not fixed by rules but by objective enforcement of them, which is not really reasonable to expect from a might-as-well-be-random selection of people that spend too much time on internet forums (most people can't accomplish it even when it's their actual, paid job). it is still better than the alternative where the space gets overrun by the (effective) majority.
all that said, if you see me being a jerk, you should probably conclude that i'm a jerk, not that i am a member of the secret cabal that maintains the moderator-dev complex

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 2
byrel, scorpionwarrior

Blades Runner

Posts: 546

Joined: Saturday, 7th May 2011, 02:43

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 06:18

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

mps wrote:not much more to say.

.. Except from "I suffer attacks of paranoia in which I heavily read into the motives of those around me"?

Seriously. Whether your theory here is true or false, mps, you basically dug your own grave. If you'd listed evidence, it would look less paranoid, but since you didn't, your paranoia appears .. paranoid rather than justified.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 06:22

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

savageorange wrote:
mps wrote:not much more to say.

.. Except from "I suffer attacks of paranoia in which I heavily read into the motives of those around me"?

Seriously. Whether your theory here is true or false, mps, you basically dug your own grave. If you'd listed evidence, it would look less paranoid, but since you didn't, your paranoia appears .. paranoid rather than justified.


what are you talking about
take it easy
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 06:23

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

all of that comes off as pretty reasonable and level headed, which is far more than i expected from a thread literally about forums drama
take it easy

For this message the author Arrhythmia has received thanks:
and into

Blades Runner

Posts: 546

Joined: Saturday, 7th May 2011, 02:43

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 06:29

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Arrhythmia wrote:
savageorange wrote:what are you talking about


mps's post has a pretty heavy implication of 'people get away with negative behaviour towards Sandman and Berder because they have a social position near to mods / devs that protects them'.
There was some ambiguity in the original post, but the follow up post really confirmed it.

Personally, my impression is that people's jerkiness is pretty much equal-opportunity here. Sandman and Berder just cop more flak because they have strong opinions; baseline human behaviour IMO. (I was going to say that Berder cops flak because he berds, which sort of illustrates my point that he is an actual character in the community -- uniquely recognizable tropes/posting styles/opinions.)

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 12:11

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

mps wrote:Facts as I see them:

I don't see them. Some posters like to have some fun or be right in discussions, no matter whom they are replying to.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1480

Joined: Monday, 21st November 2011, 07:40

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 12:19

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

duvessa wrote: if you see me being a jerk, you should probably conclude that i'm a jerk...


Most moderator behavior around here is relatively minor. I've seen occasional edits of things which are borderline. I've seen minmay say things which IMO crossed the line without moderation. But whatever bias there is seems to be small at this point. (I have seen some historical moderator actions which seem heavy-handed, like the AC/EV/SH Berder thread. But that seems the exception rather than the norm, and other mods weighed in against it.)

I think a lot of what's going on is that there's a general expectation that minmay will be a terse, snarky, cryptic, a-holeish personality. Because that's the expectation, mods don't react as strongly as to Sandman who largely comes across as sincere and earnest. It's not quite fair, but it works.

One thing I love about the tavern is the standard of moderation. Snark, by itself, is rarely moderated. You can say things in funny putdownish ways and it's just fine. Yet moderation does step in to prevent an entire thread from devolving into flame war central. I think the mods deserve some credit for this. They're actually fairly hands-off outside GDD.
Usual account: pblur on kelbi

For this message the author byrel has received thanks:
Sandman25

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 12:46

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

byrel wrote:You can say things in funny putdownish ways and it's just fine. Yet moderation does step in to prevent an entire thread from devolving into flame war central.

People who didn't get a chance to read it might be imagining that so-called "record sniping" was some hack job on all the games duvessa has played, his general playstyle, etc. Not so. It was a very specific, relevant fact about duvessa's experience only in relation to the specific topic he was discussing. I might not be impartial here, but I'd say it was worded in a much less provoking way than previous snide comments in the thread (which remain unmoderated). If I could repeat it I think you'd agree.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1480

Joined: Monday, 21st November 2011, 07:40

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 13:02

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Berder wrote:People who didn't get a chance to read it might be imagining that so-called "record sniping" was some hack job on all the games duvessa has played, his general playstyle, etc. Not so. It was a very specific, relevant fact about duvessa's experience only in relation to the specific topic he was discussing. I might not be impartial here, but I'd say it was worded in a much less provoking way than previous snide comments in the thread (which remain unmoderated). If I could repeat it you would agree.


I did read it. Given that this is a discussion about moderation, I think roughly quoting controversial things is fine. Basically you challenged duvessa's opinion on Zin Vitalization satiation be asserting that he never won a Zin character, and should basically put up or shut up. I thought it was rude and mostly ad hominum, personally. But I'll grant you there's a lot of variance in how that could appear to different people.

One of the issues with record sniping is that it tends to make threads devolve into flaming, because of the tone, etc. If you want to seriously bring people's Zin experience in to the conversation, the way to do it is respectfully asking minmay for morgues of Zin-Blasters that didn't have satiation problems, so you can see what he's doing different from you. He might actually have such games offline for instance, and him sharing them would contribute to the conversation.
Usual account: pblur on kelbi

For this message the author byrel has received thanks:
Lasty

mps

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 886

Joined: Saturday, 3rd January 2015, 22:34

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 13:02

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

duvessa wrote:no one is entitled to anything because of their crawl "record", it's a video game. mikee posts here occasionally, you know, he isn't any more deserving of respect than i am, well okay actually he is, but not because of his crawl record. its the case in all moderated spaces that you can be more of a jerk if you happen to be the right person, or direct your jerkery at the right person, this is not fixed by rules but by objective enforcement of them, which is not really reasonable to expect from a might-as-well-be-random selection of people that spend too much time on internet forums (most people can't accomplish it even when it's their actual, paid job). it is still better than the alternative where the space gets overrun by the (effective) majority.
all that said, if you see me being a jerk, you should probably conclude that i'm a jerk, not that i am a member of the secret cabal that maintains the moderator-dev complex


I think it's kind of shitty to talk up people you think are good (who are, I don't dispute that of course) and tell other people they're bad, constantly in new and inventive ways, then when someone calls you on it, say "well, no one deserves any special consideration for being good at a damn video game."

e: From my point of view, what's bad about this is really the moderation. If berder were running around beating up on random people with comparisons of online records, I would totally agree that's aggressive, obnoxious posting. But calling out minmay, for example, doesn't seem out of bounds to me at all. It's not unprovoked and it's not like he can't take it.
Last edited by mps on Thursday, 25th June 2015, 13:29, edited 1 time in total.
Dungeon Crawling Advice tl;dr: Protect ya neck.

For this message the author mps has received thanks: 3
Arrhythmia, rockygargoyle, Sandman25

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 13:24

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

byrel wrote:
Berder wrote:People who didn't get a chance to read it might be imagining that so-called "record sniping" was some hack job on all the games duvessa has played, his general playstyle, etc. Not so. It was a very specific, relevant fact about duvessa's experience only in relation to the specific topic he was discussing. I might not be impartial here, but I'd say it was worded in a much less provoking way than previous snide comments in the thread (which remain unmoderated). If I could repeat it you would agree.


I did read it. Given that this is a discussion about moderation, I think roughly quoting controversial things is fine. Basically you challenged duvessa's opinion on Zin Vitalization satiation be asserting that he never won a Zin character, and should basically put up or shut up. I thought it was rude and mostly ad hominum, personally. But I'll grant you there's a lot of variance in how that could appear to different people.

One of the issues with record sniping is that it tends to make threads devolve into flaming, because of the tone, etc. If you want to seriously bring people's Zin experience in to the conversation, the way to do it is respectfully asking minmay for morgues of Zin-Blasters that didn't have satiation problems, so you can see what he's doing different from you. He might actually have such games offline for instance, and him sharing them would contribute to the conversation.

You have a point. I would say the flaming began earlier in the thread when MarvinPA quoted a sincere post of mine and called it "incredible self-parody," or when duvessa quoted another sincere post of mine and called it "the funniest post I've ever read on here."

FYI, duvessa is minmay.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

For this message the author Berder has received thanks: 2
dowan, Sandman25

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1480

Joined: Monday, 21st November 2011, 07:40

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 13:49

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Berder wrote:FYI, duvessa is minmay.

Yup. I was active back when he switched names. Do you know if dowan had a different name way back?

You have a point. I would say the flaming began earlier in the thread when MarvinPA quoted a sincere post of mine and called it "incredible self-parody," or when duvessa quoted another sincere post of mine and called it "the funniest post I've ever read on here."


Well... the first one I thought was a dev making fun with the idea that the devs hate casters; noone thinks they actually HATE them, so he was just going to an extreme to be funny. I laughed at least. (again, offensiveness is very subjective)

And yeah, minmay was out and out flaming. That's one of those times I think he crossed the line and wasn't modded. Again though, I think it's just because that's what people expect from him.

I guess the moral of the story is you need to be abrasive more often and less sincerely helpful; so that you too can be an automated snark bot. :twisted: More seriously though, this stuff is subjective. I think you were out line line replying to someone else out of line. The mods decided your post was the point at which the thread needed turned. It kinda works from my angle, because the thread was turned before it got too far. It's a judgement call what exactly is over the line...
Usual account: pblur on kelbi

bel

Dis Charger

Posts: 1905

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 14:04

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

A simple way to think about it is "criticizing an idea" and "criticizing a person".

I also thought that the idea that Zin's vitalization could give enough nutrition to matter was silly (though I didn't say anything, nor thank duvessa's post). I also thought it was funny that Berder took an ironic comment literally and replied seriously. These things happen: tone is not easily discernible in text.

On the other hand, the bringing up online records of particular players is simply ad hominem. Even if it proved anything, which it doesn't, it does not make any argument against the idea itself, only the person making it. If you actually want to use player data, just use sequell queries instead of scrutinizing individual player records.

As to general mod behaviour and/or favouritism, it's hard to reply to impressions, but my impression is different than mps. Of course, that is subjective. I am not the person supposedly being targeted, when I might feel differently perhaps.

More generally, my motto is the following. According to Sturgeon's law, 90% of everything is crap. Even my enemies (I don't have any on tavern that I know of), are doing me a big favour by simply reading what I write.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 14:31

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

bel wrote:More generally, my motto is the following. According to Sturgeon's law, 90% of everything is crap. Even my enemies (I don't have any on tavern that I know of), are doing me a big favour by simply reading what I write.


This law is crap (unsurprisingly of course, it's within 90% it's talking about).

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 14:36

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

bel wrote:On the other hand, the bringing up online records of particular players is simply ad hominem. Even if it proved anything, which it doesn't, it does not make any argument against the idea itself, only the person making it. If you actually want to use player data, just use sequell queries instead of scrutinizing individual player records.


This is wrong. I have never casted Haunt. Can I make fun of other people in neighbor thread where they discuss that haunt is like summon butterflies++?
Now I believe duvessa wasn't making fun of Berder's use of vitalization, he was surprised to see that Berder was replying seriously to non-serious post (replying seriously to such posts is completely fine with me, I don't find it fun at all, this is why I misunderstood duvessa as well).

For this message the author Sandman25 has received thanks:
Berder

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1480

Joined: Monday, 21st November 2011, 07:40

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 14:43

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Can I make fun of other people in neighbor thread where they discuss that haunt is like summon butterflies++?

Well, yes. Provided you aren't too mean about it, poking fun at amusing descriptions is reasonable. I mean, I have casted haunt, it often feels like a summon butterflies that's scaled up to be incredibly useful lategame. But I don't mind poking fun at people I agree with.

There's a difference between poking fun, and ad hominem. It's a matter of tone etc. and is subjective. This is why I was OK with Marvin's post (poking fun at the idea they hate casters) and not OK with Berder's (which was dismissing someone based on what they've done, not on what they're saying.)
Usual account: pblur on kelbi

bel

Dis Charger

Posts: 1905

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 14:59

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

Sandman25 wrote:This is wrong. I have never casted Haunt. Can I make fun of other people in neighbor thread where they discuss that haunt is like summon butterflies++?

You can of course make fun of the idea that haunt is like summon butterflies, if you think it is wrong. Personal use has not much to do with it. You could have spectated games, watched ttyrecs, run fsim, and a million other things.

One other point to note is that if I make a snarky post, and I don't know what I am talking about, I end up looking ridiculous when someone points out the flaw in my reasoning. Thus, I tend to avoid snark. It is mostly a psychological reason.
Last edited by bel on Thursday, 25th June 2015, 15:11, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 15:04

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

byrel wrote:
Can I make fun of other people in neighbor thread where they discuss that haunt is like summon butterflies++?

Well, yes. Provided you aren't too mean about it, poking fun at amusing descriptions is reasonable. I mean, I have casted haunt, it often feels like a summon butterflies that's scaled up to be incredibly useful lategame. But I don't mind poking fun at people I agree with.


I am not sure you understand. Before reading about summon butterlies++ I had no idea that Haunt is so weak. So if I was even less polite and/or stupid, I might have fun of that comment sincerely. But I am not in position to do that because I have no idea what I am talking about, I have never used the spell.

There's a difference between poking fun, and ad hominem. It's a matter of tone etc. and is subjective. This is why I was OK with Marvin's post (poking fun at the idea they hate casters) and not OK with Berder's (which was dismissing someone based on what they've done, not on what they're saying.)


And I have opposite impression. Berder was defending his personal arguments/reputation against seemingly insult while MarvinPA was defending team reputation vs a joke post, everyone sane realizes that devs love casters, implementing spells requires much more dev efforts than simple melee does

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 25th June 2015, 15:08

Re: Moderation in the thread ANOTHER nerf to casters

bel wrote:You can of course make fun of the idea that haunt is like summon butterflies, if you think it is wrong. Personal use has not much to do with it. You could have spectated games, watched ttyrecs, run fsim, and a million other things.


I disagree. When a person who used the spell describes his experience I cannot argue against it because I've spectated some games and I have never done it myself. It's like saying "it's easy to win in 11k turns, I spectated Sapher doing it in 10k turns".
Next

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.