POLL: Play style you play the most

[Sandman25]

Lair branches thread got me thinking what play style do most players play (or try to play)?
As "try to play" I mean you would prefer to equip a plate armour but there is none generated so you use chain mail

[nago]

There's no high ac tab cast evo guy

[Sandman25]

There's no high ac tab cast evo guy

Do you mean Nemelex? I believe Evo alone does not allow to ignore melee/ranged/magic, am I mistaken?
There are no gods who grant wands/rods/evocables reliably.

[Sar]

tab chars who also cast and have good defences

[nago]

I mean there's no option like High AC char who melee and cast or use evo or both.

[byrel]

I really don't know... How do you categorize a Sp swinging a demon sword against most hard monsters, enchanting and stabbing popcorn, and using Singularity to clear Z:5?

Cause that's kind of how my characters look. They really aren't very specialist. I do tend to have way more utility and hex spells memorized at the end of a run than conjurations, but that's mostly because I like surviving more than killing things.

Edit: ended up going with light armour melee. I'm not a conjurer, and most of my damage through the game is done with magic-augmented weapon usage.

[pickled_heretic]

I usually find the biggest, slowest weapon and the heaviest armor with the highest AC possible.

I often play ogres though so there's not really a lot of choice in either of these categories.

[Sprucery]

I play all kinds of characters, so I can't vote. (Well, I'd never play a DE caster who does not train dodging so a negative vote on that one.)

[Sandman25]

I mean there's no option like High AC char who melee and cast or use evo or both.

Evo can be ignored I believe, it is trained by everyone who didn't sacrifice artifice and was lucky to find some evocables.\
Edit. So it is "High AC caster" for you.
Edit2. Unless you are talking about RMsl, Regen, Spectral Weapon and alike. As caster I mean character who kills with spells, not just cast them as support.

[Sandman25]

I really don't know... How do you categorize a Sp swinging a demon sword against most hard monsters, enchanting and stabbing popcorn, and using Singularity to clear Z:5?

Notice the poll asks "before Vaults".

[Sandman25]

I play all kinds of characters, so I can't vote. (Well, I'd never play a DE caster who does not train dodging so a negative vote on that one.)

Come on, you keep statistics for all your characters, I am sure there is one play style with the most characters played (joke, don't feel like I am trying to make you run some scripts to get statistics)

[pickled_heretic]

Lair branches thread got me thinking what play style do most players play (or try to play)?
As "try to play" I mean you would prefer to equip a plate armour but there is none generated so you use chain mail

what would you vote an ogre as? I really like ogres, they are my favorite melee race. I wear armor if I can but as you are aware, the dungeon often dictates that you are wearing a robe until at least L:8 and sometimes much later.

Not to mention large rocks. Do large rocks count enough to make them ranged?

[Sandman25]

Lair branches thread got me thinking what play style do most players play (or try to play)?
As "try to play" I mean you would prefer to equip a plate armour but there is none generated so you use chain mail

what would you vote an ogre as? I really like ogres, they are my favorite melee race. I wear armor if I can but as you are aware, the dungeon often dictates that you are wearing a robe until at least L:8 and sometimes much later.

Not to mention large rocks. Do large rocks count enough to make them ranged?

Yes, large rocks count as ranged.
Do you have Throwing higher than M&F?
If you are putting bonus points into Dex and train dodging, then it is light armour, otherwise high armour because you are playing like you already have some dragon armour.

[pickled_heretic]

I guess "playing like you have dragon armor without actually having it" sums me up pretty well, heh. And I usually take M&F to 22 first (you can do it in lair at +3 apt) unless I have something from invocations that really needs to get going. So yeah, "armored melee" probably sums it up, although I do make regular use of large rocks if I have them.

[tasonir]

Before vaults somewhat complicates things, as some classes will want to "try to" play heavy armor, but are stuck in light armor until they find something "end game". I also wasn't immediately sure where to stick transmuters, mostly statue form ones, who are probably wearing light armor, but fight in 40% GDR statue form. I selected "light armor melee" for this, although maybe "medium" armor would be more accurate (but isn't an option).

Maybe have a "Misc" damage type - ie, light armor misc, heavy armor misc, where misc is defined as extensive deck/wand/rod/stabbing/disc of storms/etc damage? Maybe count needles here, although I'm not sure if anyone really kills most mobs with needles - I don't think you can do that reliably to anything that resists poison.

[WingedEspeon]

I like to play Medium armour melee. As in FDA. Although often times I have to make do with lighter armour/ scale mail.

[Sandman25]

Here is what I wanted to know for those who haven't voted yet:
1) Do you kill monsters with spells (Conjurations/Summoning/Hexes)? Then you are a caster. Of course you try to equip the heaviest armour which still allows you to cast spells and then depending on species you end with high AC or low AC which play quite differently in Spider, for example.
2) Do you use ranged mostly? (Throwing is higher than M&F for an Ogre, for example). Then you are ranged character. Do you put on the heaviest armour and not care about spells or do you go for EV + probably support spells?
3) Do you put on the heaviest armour and don't care about spells or do you go for EV + probably support spells?

[radinms]

I play often chei statue-form.

[archaeo]

where's the option for "watch/heckle while somebody else does all the work," that's the playstyle I favor

[tabstorm]

Heavy armour all the time when I play melee unless I can't wear armor, then use statue form. If I actually play a mage it will be no defense no melee, because otherwise I could've just played a gladiator, since optimal play for a mage background will approach a gladiator as the game goes on.

[Sandman25]

Slightly surprising results, I didn't expect so many light armour melee characters.

[byrel]

Slightly surprising results, I didn't expect so many light armour melee characters.

Well, to be fair you only clarified what you were meaning after a lot of people voted. I went with light armor melee, when your clarification would have indicated I was a light armour caster.

There are a lot of possible standards for splitting up the not-trog+not-Cj group. People might go with light armour melee because they kill popcorn with a stick, and use spells only on significant threats for instance.

I'd suggest redoing the poll with the clarification built in for better results.

[bel]

The poll was very confusingly worded. When I think "high ev caster", I don't think of Fe/Sp/Op. I think of a DECj who has invested a lot in dodging, and is wearing robe. I voted for that option, even though it was very confusing.

[Sandman25]

I see, sorry.

[Sandman25]

The poll was very confusingly worded. When I think "high ev caster", I don't think of Fe/Sp/Op. I think of a DECj who has invested a lot in dodging, and is wearing robe. I voted for that option, even though it was very confusing.

Yes, that was correct. That DECj is high EV caster.
Probably it would be more clear if I wrote AC >= EV instead of high AC and EV > AC instead of high EV. Sorry.

[nago]

I mean there's no option like High AC char who melee and cast or use evo or both.

Evo can be ignored I believe, it is trained by everyone who didn't sacrifice artifice and was lucky to find some evocables.\
Edit. So it is "High AC caster" for you.
Edit2. Unless you are talking about RMsl, Regen, Spectral Weapon and alike. As caster I mean character who kills with spells, not just cast them as support.

For example this guy casted agony by orc in plate (even a bit earlier if I had good plate). If I cared I could even get death channel earlier and bolt of draining (or simulacrum) castable instead of overtraining skills or getting other I didn't need.
I could list other chars who platecaste but usually I go with ash\chei if I wanna do that so they are not the most solid example of common play - usually I get high AC in other ways (notably ozo armour), and usually most of my cast guy have solid amount of ac by vaults.

[Sandman25]

I mean there's no option like High AC char who melee and cast or use evo or both.

Evo can be ignored I believe, it is trained by everyone who didn't sacrifice artifice and was lucky to find some evocables.\
Edit. So it is "High AC caster" for you.
Edit2. Unless you are talking about RMsl, Regen, Spectral Weapon and alike. As caster I mean character who kills with spells, not just cast them as support.

For example this guy casted agony by orc in plate (even a bit earlier if I had good plate). If I cared I could even get death channel earlier and bolt of draining (or simulacrum) castable instead of overtraining skills or getting other I didn't need.
I could list other chars who platecaste but usually I go with ash\chei if I wanna do that so they are not the most solid example of common play - usually I get high AC in other ways (notably ozo armour), and usually most of my cast guy have solid amount of ac by vaults.

High AC caster (AC >= EV).
High EV caster (AC < EV).
It covers everything I believe. Your HONe was the former.

[Sandman25]

One clear thing that we can see is that we don't have any ranged character fans, nobody plays ranged characters most often.

[nago]

High AC caster (AC >= EV).
High EV caster (AC < EV).
It covers everything I believe. Your HONe was the former.

No because he was also a solid tab guy! For that I said the poll miss High AC\EV tab cast guy!

[Sandman25]

High AC caster (AC >= EV).
High EV caster (AC < EV).
It covers everything I believe. Your HONe was the former.

No because he was also a solid tab guy! For that I said the poll miss High AC\EV tab cast guy!

Would it equip CPA if it found one? If yes, then you are right, it is a heavy armour melee guy. If no, then I am right, it is a high AC caster. In any case I don't see why I need another option.

[Eyesburn]

In term of other rpg's (or even WoW) I like to play tank melee chars, with high AC/EV/HP, who are power enough to kill stuff while taking damage. Also I like casters^Chei because I can have good defences (and cast spells while weaing some heavier armours). Tho my favourite build lately was sneaky NaAs^Dith.

[Lasty]

I added "well-rounded characters" to the poll, but apparently that resets all the votes. Sorry, folks.

[Sandman25]

that resets all the votes

I knew it would happen, this is why I didn't edit the poll to make it more clear.

Edit. I edited the poll. I don't understand what is "well-rounded character" (every character belongs to previous options) but feel free to pick it and write in thread what you mean

[Sandman25]

In case it is not clear, if you have Bolt of Fire and +9 vampiric Demon Trident with 20 slaying at min delay, you are a caster, not a "well-rounded character".

[mps]

What I like to play is medium/light armor melee w/ support charm-likes and summons. That and trolls.

What I think is actually good is heavy armor melee.

[Sandman25]

What I like to play is medium/light armor melee w/ support charm-likes and summons. That and trolls.

What I think is actually good is heavy armor melee.

Correct, the poll is about played characters, not about "what characters are the most powerful for you".

[Zwobot]

  Code:

High AC caster (AC >= EV, killing with conjurations/hexes/summoning)

I actually checked my last games ... and usually it ends up with AC>EV, some necromancy and whatever high end nuke I can squeeze in. Except three rune Op/Sp.

Weird. I thought I tend to play EV casters.

[byrel]

I actually checked my last games ... and usually it ends up with AC>EV, some necromancy and whatever high end nuke I can squeeze in. Except three rune Op/Sp.

Weird. I thought I tend to play EV casters.

Remember this is how you play pre-vaults. If you usually go heavier armor after your spells are way past castable, you're probably still an EV caster.

[Lasty]

Sorry again for resetting the vote counter; that was unintentional.

High AC caster (AC >= EV).
High EV caster (AC < EV).

I think most of the boxes you're providing are artificially limiting, but I think there's a chance you might come to agree with me that this particular distinction is a bit odd. Is an IE a "high AC caster" while an EE is a "high EV caster" because Ozo's is more likely to push your AC over EV than Stoneskin is? Should the difference between whether a character is "high AC" and "high EV" change based on whether the +3 ring they found was for AC or EV?

If you're trying to make the most of your options, the answer to "high AC or high EV" is "yes, please"; you want as much of both as you can reasonably get.

[Rast]

Ranged tabbers, but I'm ok with melee tabbers too.

[Sandman25]

I think most of the boxes you're providing are artificially limiting, but I think there's a chance you might come to agree with me that this particular distinction is a bit odd. Is an IE a "high AC caster" while an EE is a "high EV caster" because Ozo's is more likely to push your AC over EV than Stoneskin is? Should the difference between whether a character is "high AC" and "high EV" change based on whether the +3 ring they found was for AC or EV?

If you're trying to make the most of your options, the answer to "high AC or high EV" is "yes, please"; you want as much of both as you can reasonably get.

The poll was inspired by discussion about Spider nest which has webs (kills EV) and fast monsters (kills luring tactics). So yes, IE is a high AC caster and EE is a high EV caster. Also it is not a topic about specific (the best, for example) character, it is a topic about "most often played" play style. If players find +4..6 rings of protection often and use them instead of +4..+6 rings of evasion, then probably it means they play high AC characters more often than high EV characters.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I originally voted for melee in heavy armour. A specific vote would be for a melee character with the heaviest armour he can wear and still cast utility spells. So basically melee with a medium ER armour + spells.

[Sandman25]

Can please one of those who voted for "well-rounded characters" provide an example? I still don't understand what type of character it is.
HO in plate armour with Sticky Flame? That's heavy armour melee.

[pickled_heretic]

don't include a "pick this if your selection does not apply to the other choices" because people always pick that one and you are better off without their input.

[Sandman25]

don't include a "pick this if your selection does not apply to the other choices" because people always pick that one and you are better off without their input.

Yes, you are right. I just don't see how well-rounded is different from "you cannot select another option", IMHO neither of them is possible because other options cover all possible characters. I guess I am missing something.

[Lasty]

Check the early posts in this thread by nago and Sar. People who prefer to play "well-rounded" character are, at least if they're thinking like me, people whose characters fit into several boxes. Does it kill with melee? Yes. Does it kill with one of summoning, hexes, or conjurations? Yes. Does it wear heavy armour or light? Well, depends on what drops. Is EV higher than AC or not? Maybe they're the same, or maybe it depends on whether I'm training Dodging or Armour on the exact turn you ask. Such a character belongs in several of your boxes because it isn't built with the idea of trying to fit into one of those boxes.

According to your poll, HO in plate that uses sticky flame isn't "heavy armour melee" because "heavy armour melee" says "no killing with conjurations/hexes/summoning". If we ignore that problem and assume you meant "no conjurations over level 4", what if the HO uses fireball instead? What about bolt of fire? The classification scheme tries to separate two very similar characters into two entirely separate buckets, but making the choice to arbitrarily divide them into different buckets doesn't actually make the characters less similar.

For example, if I were to put together a poll in which I divided characters into "characters that know Ice, Fire, and Poison spells" and "characters that use Earth, Air, or no magic", it would be correct to point out that these are bad categories because they don't capture meaningful differences between characters.

Edit: The range of options in my example of bad categories includes all possible characters, especially once I add the rule that if the number of skill points in Ice/Fire/Poison collectively determines whether you end up in that category or the "Earth/Air/No Magic" category.

[byrel]

I think we can agree there's a continuum of spell vs. mundane killage, as well as AC vs. EV. Also that optimal play ends up not boxing yourself in too much. Even that some people don't tend to play a single archetype.

But none of that removes the fact that most of my stable characters are spriggans, from Be to VM, with mostly stabby backgrounds. That characterization is useful, and slightly overgeneralizing it to exclude the Be can produce useful insights into the playerbase of the Tavern.

You CAN threshold these things. It's rare I've seen someone in plate clearing lair with stickyflame. Not that it's impossible, but it's hard, and probably nonoptimal. And it's an edgecase; you could throw it into either basket without messing up the data too much.

[Sandman25]

Check the early posts in this thread by nago and Sar. People who prefer to play "well-rounded" character are, at least if they're thinking like me, people whose characters fit into several of both boxes.

It was before I gave detailed explanations and we recreated the poll.

Does it kill with melee? Yes.

It does not matter. Notice that all characters in this poll are allowed to kill monsters with melee. So if you are not killing monsters with spells and you don't have ranged skill higher than melee, then you should pick one of first two options.

Does it kill with one of summoning, hexes, or conjurations? Yes.

Bingo, it's a caster.

Does it wear heavy armour or light? Well, depends on what drops.

Are we still talking about pre-Vaults? I don't think a caster can cast Fireball in plate armour (except some species like HO who clearly are high AC casters in this case).

Is EV higher than AC or not? Maybe they're the same, or maybe it depends on whether I'm training Dodging or Armour on the exact turn you ask. Such a character belongs in several of your boxes because it isn't built with the idea of trying to fit into one of those boxes.

I am not demanding anything of course, if you have AC 23 and EV 20 feel free to pick "high EV caster", it is not that different from AC 23 and EV 24.

According to your poll, HO in plate that uses sticky flame isn't "heavy armour melee" because "heavy armour melee" says "no killing with conjurations/hexes/summoning".

Sticky flame is exception and I don't think it can count as conjurations, it cannot attack monsters at range and can be treated as a special melee attack. I didn't want to add options for "high AC with Sticky Flame", "high EV with conjure flame" or "FDA with Call Imps)

If we ignore that problem and assume you meant "no conjurations over level 4", what if the HO uses fireball instead? What about bolt of fire?

Caster in both cases.

For example, if I were to put together a poll in which I divided characters into "characters that know Ice, Fire, and Poison spells" and "characters that use Earth, Air, or no magic", it would be correct to point out that these are bad categories because they don't capture meaningful differences between characters.

I meant school which can kill monsters: hexes, summoning and conjurations (this includes air/earth/fire/ice/poison/necromancy). But not translocation/transmutations/charms.

[Zwobot]

Can please one of those who voted for "well-rounded characters" provide an example? I still don't understand what type of character it is.
HO in plate armour with Sticky Flame? That's heavy armour melee.

Like Sprucery I play a mixed bag of characters... since it seems I can't actually retract my vote, it ends up in the "nevermind" option. Ooops?

I mean I know what Berder's talking about Spider being dangerous for squishy EV based characters... But I also play plate and great mace sorta deal. So dunno...

[Lasty]

I meant school which can kill monsters: hexes, summoning and conjurations (this includes air/earth/fire/ice/poison/necromancy). But not translocation/transmutations/charms.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying -- I wasn't trying to question whether it was possible to arbitrarily group characters into a small set of categories or whether you had a system in mind for doing so. I was pointing out that there are a lot of characters that do not cleanly fit into the categories you've set up, and thus that those categories are poorly-chosen, and given that that it's a bad idea to attempt to leverage it to gain any sort of understanding.

At the end of my post I offered example of an exaggeratedly-bad categorization system that's entirely separate from yours in order to make the point that poor categorization leads to poor conclusions.