Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexities?


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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 05:53

Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexities?

Consumables are a tricky thing in crawl. They can be used perhaps 10% of the time you spend in combat, because you would run out if you used them any more frequently. However, you have to use them to be good. The power, usefulness, and versatility of something like a scroll of blinking is transparent and obvious, but it's not true of most other consumables. Furthermore, consumables are rare enough that experimenting with them is wasteful in a normal game, and their scarcity makes their function hard to grasp. Might Crawl benefit from having no nonrenewable consumables, by cutting them from the game? Or, for example, if everything currently 'consumable' simply recharged like an elemental evocable?

Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 06:04

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

ToME has exactly this concept. I don't like it because if all consumables recharge then they all have to be kinda weak.

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Sandman25

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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 06:39

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

Yeah, play ToME. The formulaic nature of combat in it is IMO largely due to the replacement of consumables with cooldowns.
(I'm not arguing that consumable management is not confusing. Just that getting rid of consumables only trades one problem for another.)

mps

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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 06:56

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

I don't think consumables have overly complex or confusing effects, with the exception of decks.

I think your problem is that you've been sucked into the soup side of the equation and are neglecting the crawl side. Decks = soup. You're trying to get into aspects of the game that are on the periphery without first getting a strong command of the basics. First learn how to build a character that doesn't need to lean on consumables to survive except in maybe 1 in 50 or so encounters. Learn to judge tactical situations and the strength of your character relative to various threats. You'll realize you've been worrying about the wrong things. The main things you have to learn re: consumables are whether you need a buff to win a fight, when to disengage to avoid burning consumables, and when you need to use a consumable to avoid dying or getting into a situation where you'll need to use even more consumables to avoid dying. The finer points either become clear with experience or can be learned by speccing more experienced players.

e: on the other hand, the answer to your question is "yes."
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archaeo

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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 11:59

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

Pollen_Golem wrote:However, you have to use them to be good.


No, not really. You should use them if you suddenly find yourself in a real bad situation somehow, or preferably, to ensure a situation doesn't go from bad to worse. But with a decent build and a play-style focusing on risk management, you can go for the vast majority of the game without using any consumables. If anything, I prefer areas of the game that are so difficult, you are forced to use them. Crypt and zigs accomplish this pretty well.

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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 12:17

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

Renewable consumables are bad unless they recharge from kills with very low rate (like you can use it only once per floor or less often). To be good you don't need to burn consumables, it's possible to win without using anything but spells and god abilities, for example.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 18:18

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

My favorite thing about tome is the removal of consumables and the addition of runes and infusions and I typically use a similar system in D&D campaigns I DM.

I actually think the combat in tome is pretty entertaining (depending on your character).

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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 18:21

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

pickled_heretic wrote:My favorite thing about tome is the removal of consumables and the addition of runes and infusions and I typically use a similar system in D&D campaigns I DM.

I actually think the combat in tome is pretty entertaining (depending on your character).


It's very repetitive, you use basically the same items/abilities/spells in the same order in most fights. In crawl it can be compared to casting haste/phase shift/shroud and channeling mana back before entering a new Pan floor.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 18:25

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

Tome is entertaining for what it is, but I'm glad crawl is not like tome. I like having consumables that get consumed.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 18:25

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

re: sandman, I don't really agree, the fact that runes and infusions contradict with some skills, some take a turn while others are off cooldown and/or gcd, in addition to saturation etc. gives you lots of options in a combat where all of your actions are meaningful. you can definitely make a monobuild character who pops his infusions and push attacks through encounters (or something like that) but it's not fun or optimal.

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Sandman25
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Post Thursday, 11th June 2015, 21:07

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

mps wrote:I don't think consumables have overly complex or confusing effects, with the exception of decks.

The main things you have to learn re: consumables are

just how good they are and what they can be used for, IMO, because if you don't learn that, you have no idea how burning consumables is going to help you win/escape a fight you can't survive without buffs.

As for soupy characters, yeah I've been getting into Nemelex recently, and by the way, Felid is a good race for learning Nemelex because the penalty of dying to bad cards is mitigated so much. Having to rely on consumables reveals their true value. Imagine a god that made you permanently weaker but showered you with scrolls and potions - it would be a fine 'learning mode' for consumable usage (I might expand on this at some point). Are you challenging my stones, man :?:
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 02:46

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

We do have rechargeable consumables. They are called god abilities.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/playe ... speon.html. I started playing in 0.16.1
I achieved greatplayer in less than a year.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 06:10

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

Sandman25 wrote:
pickled_heretic wrote:My favorite thing about tome is the removal of consumables and the addition of runes and infusions and I typically use a similar system in D&D campaigns I DM.

I actually think the combat in tome is pretty entertaining (depending on your character).


It's very repetitive, you use basically the same items/abilities/spells in the same order in most fights. In crawl it can be compared to casting haste/phase shift/shroud and channeling mana back before entering a new Pan floor.


That arguably has more to do with other questionable design decisions.

Crawl's combat is pretty repetitive too. Melee? Retreat to cleared area, position well, bash to death. Ranged? Retreat to clear area, position well, shoot to death. Caster? Retreat to clear area, position well, blast to death. I'd argue that truly interesting fights are just as common in ToME as in Crawl.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 11:43

Re: Could culling consumables curtail crappy Crawl complexit

But ToME does not have Chei, Xom, Op, Fo, Fe, Mu, Imp...

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