The Tavern

Code:: Remove the Control Teleport spell and the book of Control cTele removal part 2. With cTele removed the book of Control was even more empty, and its other spells were mostly duplicated in at multiple other books. Mass Confusion could potentially do with being added to another book since this leaves it in only the book of Dreams.

http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=co ... 447a7b9bd2

Code:: Remove rings of teleport control Part one of cTele removal. cTele's function generally is to turn an interesting unreliable escape method into a boring and reliable one. Its existence also makes it necessary to have various floors be awkward exceptions that block the effect.

http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=co ... 64a41dc89c

Code:: Remove the control teleport duration and -cTele level flag Removes most of the actual functionality of cTele. The -cTele flag's effect of preventing shafts (only relevant in Tomb) is turned into its own branch flag.

http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=co ... dbc4409d4d

Code:: Make carrying the Orb prevent controlled blinks from working Degrade them all the way to uncontrolled. Having to still have some form of -cTele exist is really inelegant and unfortunate, but seems maybe necessary for the orbrun. If it seems like the difficulty of the orb grab should be increased to compensate for -cTele removal, it might be better to come up with some other unrelated change if possible, rather than having -cBlink be a thing at all.

http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=co ... 93b37fcc3a

Does it mean speedrunners will be unable to improve their results?

Spoiler: show

This is a huge nerf to hell/pan rune ninjaing, which is kind of sad, but it's understandable otherwise.

Farewell cTele.

I'll miss the DDoor/Apport/cTele combo.

This also makes V:5 harder. I look forward to the change, but I also wonder if Slime and Abyss should be nudged up in difficulty for balance. I wouldn't mind having the A rune generate deeper.

all before wrote:This also makes V:5 harder. I look forward to the change, but I also wonder if Slime and Abyss should be nudged up in difficulty for balance. I wouldn't mind having the A rune generate deeper.

Shut your filthy mouth before you give the devs any ideas! A3 is bad enough! :evil:

random tele in v:5 is fine and doing abyss instead is an utterly ridiculous idea on any character

duvessa wrote:random tele in v:5 is fine and doing abyss instead is an utterly ridiculous idea on any character

That's not true. A very stealthy character can basically just waltz through the abyss and grab the rune. I've done it on a few characters that were a little squishy, as good stealth doesn't help as much in V5, and individual abyss enemies tend to be less threatening than V5 enemies.

A disaster for speedrunning. I hope they introduce aut scoring and a new ladder soon. Current records will be essentially impossible to beat without ctele.

I find Abyss or Slime easier than Vaults:5 when speedrunning.

Aut scoring would screw Chei, wouldn't it?

bel wrote:Aut scoring would screw Chei, wouldn't it?

It's only fair you get a low score when using Chei, it's practically the same thing as using wizard mode. :mrgreen:

Well, speedrunning is not fair anyway: one player can find stairs much faster than another can. Standard crawl is not fair either, otherwise I would find hat of alchemist and rings of shaolin/robustness in every game on D4 or where it can be generated

The only time I currently remember using cTele outside of extended is when I once snatched the decaying rune from behind the Lernaean Hydra's back. I surely have used it a few times more but it has never been part of my V:5 strategy. Just hasting and running/blinking to a side corridor has sufficed.

Try Chei

I suck with Chei :( I think my best Chei character was a DD Stalker (funny combo that) and it was just when I was returning to Crawl from a long hiatus and met merging slime creatures for the first time.

Well, I don't even dare to worship Chei as DD...

duvessa wrote:random tele in v:5 is fine and doing abyss instead is an utterly ridiculous idea on any character

Sp, Vp, Ce, AK or ^Lugonu, high stealth, or not having decent MR--any of those would make me prefer A to V:5.

Why not generate V:5 in the abyss? Then everyone is (un)happy.

Anyway, I think I'm exaggerating how much the change buffs V difficulty, as this is still true:

Sprucery wrote:Just hasting and running/blinking to a side corridor has sufficed.

Code:: Make carrying the Orb prevent controlled blinks from working Degrade them all the way to uncontrolled. Having to still have some form of -cTele exist is really inelegant and unfortunate, but seems maybe necessary for the orbrun. If it seems like the difficulty of the orb grab should be increased to compensate for -cTele removal, it might be better to come up with some other unrelated change if possible, rather than having -cBlink be a thing at all.

Agreed. Make carrying the orb give you the -Tele or Dimension Anchor status effect. :twisted:

You can still drop the orb and teleport, but you'll have to return and fetch it eventually.

Looks like passage of golubria is a much better spell now. Also zot5 is a lot easier if you can just use ?blink to get out of danger.

Will passage of golubria work on Zot5 provided the level is not different from D1 now? I guess the spell will be removed soon.

I would be sad if passage of golubria was removed just in its time of glory. It's one of the more interesting and unique spells. Bump it up a level if necessary.

I'm not worried about V:5, there are plenty of options for approaching that. It is definitely going to hurt speedrunning, but I don't think that's a priority in terms of design. I'd be curious to see feedback from some of the top speedrunners after they've had time to actually do speedruns with the change, if they are interested in testing it. Assuming roughly average staircase arrangement, each Ctele to stairs takes off what, about 50-60 turns each floor? So if you do this 20 times, you save 1k turns? For 15 rune speedruns the general benchmark seems to be roughly 30-40k turns, so this is about 3% of your total time? Maybe my assumption of "20 times" is too low, but it seems like this would have a noticeable but not huge impact?

There may even be a slight speedrunning advantage to counterbalance the loss of ctele, now that you can use passage of golubria and ?blink to save turns in every level.

Sandman25 wrote:Does it mean speedrunners will be unable to improve their results?

Lack of cTele adds a huge amount of backtracking time. Here is the fastest 15 runer won without cTele:
http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/eld ... 014317.txt

I think this will put a floor of around 23k for meleers and 30k for mages. (Yes cTele will save you 4k turns of backtracking)

Fortunately speedruns are still fun (for me) and most of the race scores can still be beat except DD, Na, VS, Sp, Mu, DE.

ANOTHER NERF TO CASTERS

I know you're kidding around, duvessa, but I get the feeling that this actually makes casting at least slightly better when playing for score. Which is maybe unfortunate, since it adds a huge RNG wrinkle to what was a relatively consistent melee speedrun meta strategy. Suffice it to say that I bet you could still beat 20k in Trunk, you'd just need unbelievable RNG.

For normal crawlers, this change is just a net positive, imo. Sure, you miss out on the rare occasion when cTele is a supremely necessary tactical move (as opposed to just being a convenience or an iffy ninja'ing strat), but in exchange, you get to use cblink on some of the most dangerous levels of the game.

No it dosen't, spellcasters have just as much backtracking as meleers do. They're slower because of XP/itemneeds and a slower earlygame due to resting for MP recovery.

archaeo wrote:but in exchange, you get to use cblink on some of the most dangerous levels of the game.

Do you seriously believe CBlink will continue working on Zot5 for long?

Probably not, but I WANT to believe.

Zot:5 is easy anyway. The layout has so many sharp corners and narrow chokes. The only dangerous thing about it is Zot traps.

Can we stop doing these posts where vets claim "[game aspect] is actually easy" about features of the game which have proven to be quite deadly in practice?

i dont think people lose streaks on zot:5 very often, and its the only place other than orb run in a normal game that had -cTele (orb run still has it for some godawful terrible absolutely not necessary reason) so i dont think this is really a buff to anything

I will miss cTele simply because it was my preferred method of getting the slimy rune/slime treasure. on the other hand with jellies not eating the items you have seen it isn't much of an issue.

Yeah, Cerebov's vaults will have to auto-open on his death now or it's just going to be so much fun, tediously popping around randomly until you finally hit them.

daggaz wrote:Yeah, Cerebov's vaults will have to auto-open on his death now or it's just going to be so much fun, tediously popping around randomly until you finally hit them.

Cerebov's vaults haven't required cTele for 2 years.

The Tavern

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