Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets harder?


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 17:22

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

I agree that pre-Lair game is harder than post-Lair game. You said 10% of your Lair and post-Lair deaths are unpreventable, this is why it is wrong to say that game where player has reached Lair is already won. And this is what I meant when I attracted attention to 46% deaths after reaching Lair.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 17:31

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Sandman25 wrote:You said 10% of your Lair and post-Lair deaths are unpreventable, this is why it is wrong to say that game where player has reached Lair is already won.

Lasty wrote:What I'm saying is that more than 90% of my Lair and post-Lair deaths would have been prevented by playing with the level of care I use in the first few levels of D.

You misunderstand me in two ways here: first "more than 90% could be avoided" shouldn't be read as "10% can't be avoided"; it could mean any percentage over 90%, including 100%. I initially wrote 99%, and then decided to back the claim off a little to make it slightly more accurate. Second, I didn't say the remainder could not be prevented. I said that they could have been prevented simply by playing with the level of care I use in the beginning of the game. I think I've had between one and three deaths that were actually literally unpreventable after Lair, and even those deaths are probably open to question.

The portion of games not in that more-than-90% are games where I was not able to prevent them with my usual early game level of careful play, but had I known something I didn't, or thought of a cunning plan that didn't cross my mind until later, or taken a level of care beyond my normal level, or even sought the opinions of other players, I quite probably would still have been able to survive. Many of those deaths were learning experiences of one sort or another.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks:
Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 17:41

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Ok, I see my mistakes, thanks.
How about "Game where you reached Lair is already won if you play 20+ minutes per floor, carefully luring every monster 10+ tiles back to stairs before fighting, carefully checking every monster in xv mode, carefully considering each of 52 items in inventory every time you see a dangerous monster, swapping to recommended rings even vs popcorn, retreating 2 levels up for healing etc."?
I don't know any player who plays this way all game of course, hence my disagreement with "Reached Lair - celebrate win" slogan.
Last edited by Sandman25 on Friday, 12th June 2015, 17:43, edited 1 time in total.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 17:42

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Virtually all deaths anywhere are preventable - recall elliptic's 43-streak with what I hear were randomly chosen combos.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 17:44

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Berder wrote:Virtually all deaths anywhere are preventable - recall elliptic's 41-streak with what I hear were randomly chosen combos.


No, it does not prove anything. Even if we had 99% characters die with unavoidable deaths, it would be possible to get a 41 game streak.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 17:44

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Haha, that might well be true. I tend not to agree with "games that get past Lair have already been won" anyway -- again, I think it's a bit overstated -- but I think it's somewhat closer to accurate than "games that get past Lair are only half-won".

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 17:46

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Lasty wrote:I didn't say or mean anything about unavoidable deaths, tho it is true that very few deaths after d:2 can truly said to be unavoidable. What I'm saying is that I pay close attention to the early game because I have to in order to get past it, whereas I very rarely pay close attention to any specific scenario post-Lair; in fact, I deliberately play a little sloppy post-Lair in order to create situations where I have to stop and think. What I'm saying is that more than 90% of my Lair and post-Lair deaths would have been prevented by playing with the level of care I use in the first few levels of D. What that says to me is that early D is harder than most of the rest of the game, since it almost always demands care and attention, and the rest only sometimes does.

It's possible that some people feel that the late game is harder in part because during the more-rare times when you do need to pay attention you need to make a correct choice from a much larger pool of possible choices, but I don't see that as a factor in the difficulty level of those chunks of the game; having more choices makes it more likely that you have at least one very good choice.

Well, that's a distinction to make, if you have at least one good choice to make most of the time, but you have 20 possible choices, and you have to make the correct choice 100 times, that's fairly unlikely to happen strictly randomly, whereas if you only have 3 choices, your odds of guessing the correct one are much higher.

That means from a strictly *odds based* perspective, i.e. if you were taking random but valid actions, it actually gets more difficult as you progress, rather than less.

Now people don't just take random options, they try to make the best choice, so having more options does mean you have more opportunity for a better choice, which means in that sense it's easier, more choices mean greater odds that the one that would be the most likely to let you win is among them.

*however* the more choices you have, the easier it is to make a mistake, it's easier late in the game to die and then go "dammnit, totally didn't see/remember that I had X consumable which might have saved me" This happens more frequently when you play lazily or distractedly certainly, but crawl's a marathon of good decisions, not a complex single-solution analysis that you only have to do once.

So whether it's easier or harder later in the game depends on how easy it is to select the correct choice over and over again, additionally crawl supplies you with a really large number of choices where the decision process is trivial (Oh, it's more popcorn <tab><tab><tab>) meaning your awareness threshold for bad situations needs to be higher.

In the end, whether you call the late game "easy" or not really depends on whether you're looking at it as a series of problems that need to be solved (The problems get easier to solve) or as a endurance challenge for attention and repeated correct decision making (it gets harder to pay attention and repeatedly make the correct decision, which rises in complexity, even as it lowers in difficulty)

You could similarly say that hitting home runs in baseball isn't "hard" in the sense that it's not hard to know which actions it takes to do so, however it *is* hard to actually do the deed repeatably without lots of practice and only the most successful baseball hitters can do so on a regular basis.

Practice and actual performance get a bad rap when compared to problem solving, invention is 1% inspiriation and 99% perspriation, and lots of other crap I could say that all mean similar things.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks:
Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 17:48

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Lasty wrote:Haha, that might well be true. I tend not to agree with "games that get past Lair have already been won" anyway -- again, I think it's a bit overstated -- but I think it's somewhat closer to accurate than "games that get past Lair are only half-won".


Well, why were we arguing then? I have the same feeling ;) (except when playing DsEn with 150% HP for monsters )

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 18:03

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Sandman25 wrote:
Berder wrote:Virtually all deaths anywhere are preventable - recall elliptic's 41-streak with what I hear were randomly chosen combos.


No, it does not prove anything. Even if we had 99% characters die with unavoidable deaths, it would be possible to get a 41 game streak.

Actually it was a 43 streak, I corrected myself. 10 of them were during meleebug so if you don't count them that still leaves 33 games.

So if it's possible to win at least 33 games in a row with perfect play with random characters, what does that tell us about the average chance of unavoidable death?

One possibility is that 33 games is what might be expected with perfect play, and elliptic did not have to get particularly lucky. This would speak to a chance of unavoidable death of 1/34, or 3%. We can say the true chance of unavoidable death is probably somewhat above this.

Suppose elliptic did get a bit lucky and the true chance of unavoidable death is as high as 10%. Given that the true chance of unavoidable death is 10%, what are the chances elliptic could have a streak at least as long as 33? He has to win 33 times in a row, so 0.9^33 = 0.03. That means that a given streak of elliptic would have only a 3% chance of making it that far. That is plausible, considering that elliptic has attempted many streaks.

What if the true chance of unavoidable death is 15%? In that case, 0.85^33 = 0.0046, which i would call too low. 1/0.0046 = 213. I'm not sure that elliptic has used his near-perfect play in 213 bona-fide streak attempts. He wasn't always as good as he is now, for one thing.

So based on this, assuming elliptic's play is perfect, I would estimate the true chance of unavoidable death is somewhere between 10% and 15%.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 18:11

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Well, probably you should also learn what a hyperbole is.
I had a triple miscast in a row with 1% failure, that's 0.0001%
Also I had a fight where I was attacked by hasted Wiglaf and a spider 10+ times while being at 1 HP in middle armour, I cannot even calculate probability here but it is lower than the above.
Wonders happen ;)

Edit. I think chance of unavoidable death is below 1%. That streak was not ended with unavoidable death by the way.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Friday, 12th June 2015, 18:22

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Sandman25 wrote:Well, probably you should also learn what a hyperbole is.
I had a triple miscast in a row with 1% failure, that's 0.0001%
Also I had a fight where I was attacked by hasted Wiglaf and a spider 10+ times while being at 1 HP in middle armour, I cannot even calculate probability here but it is lower than the above.
Wonders happen ;)

Yeah, they do ;)

Edit. I think chance of unavoidable death is below 1%. That streak was not ended with unavoidable death by the way.

It might be.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5382

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Monday, 15th June 2015, 22:43

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Sandman25 wrote:Well, probably you should also learn what a hyperbole is.
I had a triple miscast in a row with 1% failure, that's 0.0001%
Also I had a fight where I was attacked by hasted Wiglaf and a spider 10+ times while being at 1 HP in middle armour, I cannot even calculate probability here but it is lower than the above.
Wonders happen ;)

Edit. I think chance of unavoidable death is below 1%. That streak was not ended with unavoidable death by the way.

I agree the chance of unavoidable death is considerably lower than 10% (1% may be about right, but it's hard to be precise). However noticing three 1% miscasts in a row isn't a .0001% chance of happening. That would only be the case if you have cast precisely 3 spells in all of your crawl experience. You've instead likely cast thousands, probably even tens of thousands of spells by now. I don't think we need combinatorics for this example, you should just have 10000 - 2 chances to start a 3 miscast streak (assume 10,000 casts), so the chances of this NOT happening would be .9999 ^ 9998. Which gives us ~36.7 chance of it never happening - you have ~63% chance of this happening at least once (includes the chances of it happening twice, three times, etc). Especially assuming you're actually watching figures and looking for patterns, as I think most experienced crawl players do, and players like yourself (and myself) are even more likely to do; we tend to care about numbers.

I'm pretty rusty with probability so if I've made a mistake here correct me, but the general idea that a great deal of "events" happening over a long period of time makes even very rare things common should be fairly obvious. I'm not sure if I have to do anything extra to account for one success breaking multiple possible streaks, ie, if you succeed on the 5th cast, it's impossible to have a fail streak that started in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th positions. I should get back to real work.

For this message the author tasonir has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, Rast

mps

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 886

Joined: Saturday, 3rd January 2015, 22:34

Post Monday, 15th June 2015, 22:50

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

On the other hand, if you look at the way spell success is actually computed, it wouldn't be surprising if the numbers given on the spell menus are wrong...
Dungeon Crawling Advice tl;dr: Protect ya neck.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 15th June 2015, 22:50

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

You are right of course. Yet my general point stands: wonders happen, ok, "wonders" happen. I will never quit character when I have 1 HP and adjacent hasted Wiglaf, for example.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 15th June 2015, 22:52

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

no way are unavoidable deaths anywhere close to 1% unless you only play muck

mps wrote:On the other hand, if you look at the way spell success is actually computed, it wouldn't be surprising if the numbers given on the spell menus are wrong...
it actually would be, it'd mean either a major flaw in the RNG or a really weird bug with the tetrahedral number function or the like. of course 1% in the spell menu could mean like 1.4% in which case getting 3 in a row is a lot easier!
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1386

Joined: Sunday, 5th April 2015, 22:37

Post Tuesday, 16th June 2015, 01:44

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

duvessa wrote:no way are unavoidable deaths anywhere close to 1% unless you only play muck

mps wrote:On the other hand, if you look at the way spell success is actually computed, it wouldn't be surprising if the numbers given on the spell menus are wrong...
it actually would be, it'd mean either a major flaw in the RNG or a really weird bug with the tetrahedral number function or the like. of course 1% in the spell menu could mean like 1.4% in which case getting 3 in a row is a lot easier!

I'm pretty sure the % fail chance on the spell menu is "wrong" because of rounding. I haven't done any source diving about this, but I don't think the game shows 0% fail until the fail percentage is actualy 0, so "1% fail" could mean something as low as 0.01% fail.

Personaly I find the game gets continuasly easier until zot and even zot is easier than early game, assuming your not doing extended. Then again, my version of crappy skilling tends to look like a less extreme version of this http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/WingedEspeon/morgue-WingedEspeon-20150512-074024.txt from playing nethack before I knew about crawl.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/playe ... speon.html. I started playing in 0.16.1
I achieved greatplayer in less than a year.
Remove food
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4478

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Tuesday, 16th June 2015, 07:30

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

In my current game I've several times zapped a wand of slowing at enemies while the success % has been something like 37%. After 5 consecutive unsuccessful zaps it's hard to believe that the chance is correct, but of course that's just randomness and clustering illusion...
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5382

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 16th June 2015, 23:02

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Granted rounding 1.4% and .3% to 1% is going to have a decent impact on the odds, the larger point should be about the same. I assume the numbers on the spell success menu isn't wrong outside of rounding issues...

Winged: That kind of skilling is actually fairly decent for berserkers, since you can't train magic/evocations anyways, and don't really need stealth much either. You should probably pick up some evocations, but I tend to ignore it often anyways, so really you're fine.

For this message the author tasonir has received thanks:
WingedEspeon
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1386

Joined: Sunday, 5th April 2015, 22:37

Post Tuesday, 16th June 2015, 23:31

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

tasonir wrote:Winged: That kind of skilling is actually fairly decent for berserkers, since you can't train magic/evocations anyways, and don't really need stealth much either. You should probably pick up some evocations, but I tend to ignore it often anyways, so really you're fine.


Except I will skill non trogolites the same way...
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/playe ... speon.html. I started playing in 0.16.1
I achieved greatplayer in less than a year.
Remove food

Halls Hopper

Posts: 81

Joined: Friday, 17th April 2015, 23:46

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 02:07

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Answering the OP, yes, sometimes I've felt that the game gets harder.

For instance, my current game. I've done Lair & Orc. Now I have no rPois and just MR+ for Spider and Shoals. Plus no amulets. Probably a better player would play it in a better way, but I'm now finding this game harder than ever.

Dump: http://pastebin.com/gja40Qfb

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 02:21

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

I am not sure what a better player can do here. Also it is a draconian so even wearing some weird item like -2 robe {Dex -3, MR+} is not an option.

For this message the author Sandman25 has received thanks:
quik

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 02:23

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Spider zombies are very good.

Edit: I've read your dump and you have killed a top tier Spider threat without much worry. I guess only one potion of curing is pretty bad but if you play carefully you can do it. I'd probably just do Vaults after getting the spider rune. You'll get marked but that can be dealt with.

Also I'd consider getting a bit more Dodging.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks:
quik
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1386

Joined: Sunday, 5th April 2015, 22:37

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 02:44

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

can scrolls of nose break mesmorization?
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/playe ... speon.html. I started playing in 0.16.1
I achieved greatplayer in less than a year.
Remove food

Snake Sneak

Posts: 102

Joined: Monday, 22nd September 2014, 21:27

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 02:48

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

In response to the original question - it obviously depends heavily on starting selection and the RNG, but I've found that Crawl has multiple peaks of difficulty:

D1, D2 - relatively easy, probably more due to practice than anything else
D3-D7ish - difficulty peak. You're underpowered versus enemies that you can't trivially poke to death. Optimal play hits a tediousness peak here too, as I think some others have alluded to - since you're underpowered at this stage, optimal play requires you to draw everything into cleared territory. (I suppose optimal play demands that at every stage of the game, but it's more important here than, say, V1, which you ought to be able to roll over with ease with most characters.) The end of this difficulty peak is marked by gaining divine abilities, good equipment finds, or just plain old XL gain.
Down to Lair:5 or so - easy with a modicum of careful play. Should be a net consumable gain for pretty much everyone; my biggest fears in this area are water moccasins (fast + poison) and komodo dragons (hard hitters). Orc may also be easy on some characters.
Late Lair - potential difficulty peak for some characters due to increasing enemy difficulty: more black mambas, more death yaks, catobeplas, Lair:8 vaults.
Early Lair branches - easy for most characters (exceptions: Spider without rPois and Shoals).
Lair branch rune levels - moderate difficulty peak, unless you're equipped to ninja runes. I've found Swamp:5 in particular to be markedly harder than Swamp:1-4; Snake:5 can be tough but often has a more forgiving layout; Shoals:5 is still hard, and Spider:5 is a pushover unless ghost moths are a serious problem for you.
Rest of Dungeon, Vaults 1-4 - easy.
Vaults:5 - hard.
Depths - easy, though may contain encounters that require thought.
Zot:1-3ish - mostly easy
Zot:4-5 - hard
Ascent - I've always found it pretty easy, but I never do 3-rune ascents - I'm much more of a completionist!

For this message the author The Ferret has received thanks:
quik

Spider Stomper

Posts: 234

Joined: Thursday, 30th April 2015, 08:29

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 04:54

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

If you have infinite patience, you can avoid most of the early game death.

If mara appears, I believe suddenly become difficult. If you appear to rune vault (including elf:3),you suddenly to deal with infinite HP and strongest summoning, or you must give up the rune(If you want to appear in the elf, a lot of items) and XP.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4478

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 06:52

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

The Ferret wrote:D1, D2 - relatively easy, probably more due to practice than anything else
D:1 is the hardest level at least for me. If I make it to D:2, I have about 18% chance of winning (based on my current high score list).

Depths - easy, though may contain encounters that require thought.
Depths can be brutal but so should your character be at this point. Imho the most dangerous part is entering Depths:1. Sometimes you land in the middle of dangerous monsters and there's only one way in and out.

Zot:4-5 - hard
Isn't Zot:4 just the same as Zot:1 - 3?
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

Snake Sneak

Posts: 102

Joined: Monday, 22nd September 2014, 21:27

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 06:59

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

For some reason I thought there was an increased OoF spawn rate with depth in Zot? I feel like I've seen them more frequently.

I'm not a Zot expert, though.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 08:01

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

WingedEspeon wrote:can scrolls of nose break mesmorization?

Yes.

https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#scroll_of_noise
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4478

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 10:45

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

FR: scroll of nose: sharpens your sense of smell, detecting nearby creatures (the smellier the creature is, the further away it is detected).
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

For this message the author Sprucery has received thanks: 2
Sar, WingedEspeon

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:01

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

quik wrote:Answering the OP, yes, sometimes I've felt that the game gets harder.

For instance, my current game. I've done Lair & Orc. Now I have no rPois and just MR+ for Spider and Shoals. Plus no amulets. Probably a better player would play it in a better way, but I'm now finding this game harder than ever.

Dump: http://pastebin.com/gja40Qfb

rPois isn't particularly necessary for Spider and MR isn't particularly necessary for Shoals. The best defense against spider venom is 1) high AC/EV/SH, to which end you could really use more dodging, and 2) a huge army of undead spiders, which you've got. The best defense against mesmerization is to kill the mesmerizer, though if you really need to you can break it will ?noise, lightning, fog and steam, or a teleport.

Missing a resistance is almost never particularly bad in crawl as long as you treat things that would be blocked by the resistance with respect. Putting on, say, a -2 robe with -dex to get MR is generally making things more dangerous for yourself rather than less.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:19

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Lasty wrote:Putting on, say, a -2 robe with -dex to get MR is generally making things more dangerous for yourself rather than less.


Yes, I agree. It could help only a very small number of characters (Sp with high Dex/EV and already low AC, for example).
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1283

Joined: Thursday, 16th April 2015, 22:39

Post Thursday, 18th June 2015, 21:38

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

This thread made me realize some things. In the early game you can escape and even disengage from almost any enemy, mostly through maneuvering and positioning. A group of enemies can almost always be turned into a 1v1 fight with stairdancing. You can easily run through the dungeon leaving many things alive and avoiding any fishy enemies. You can start killing nasties when you see them generating in big packs, signaling their popcorn status, which is most notable with frogs and ogres.

That starts to end after Dungeon/Lair/Orc, when you get many enemies which are faster than you, which cut off your escape routes, or which are very deadly at range. You used to have nasties gradually become popcorn while newer and bigger nasties got introduced. Well, you no longer have obvious popcorn with nasties mixed in. Instead, you get mostly all-new enemies, who could very well put an end to your character. So, you are forced to deal with nasties when you first encounter them, when they are still nasty and not popcorn, and this is where the “hard part” comes in for me. This was doubly true back when you could not see monster spells/abilities in their description screen.

That’s the problem of permadeath in the game. It aggressively punishes testing the deadliness of enemies. Other games can afford to be much more brutal, because you can keep experimenting with consumables and difficult enemies, and if you keep failing you can just go do something else. In this aspect, Crawl handicaps your ability to develop “threat assessment” and “consumables assessment” skills, especially since it enables “threat/consumables ignorance” for so much of the early/mid game. People who have watched me on Webtiles can see how this impacts my play-style.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 18th June 2015, 22:08

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Pollen_Golem wrote:especially since it enables “threat/consumables ignorance” for so much of the early/mid game.


Are you talking about your FeMo here? Was it so easy early game that you ignored threats/consumables?
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1283

Joined: Thursday, 16th April 2015, 22:39

Post Thursday, 18th June 2015, 22:35

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

I'm not talking about a particular character. I mean you can afford to treat a lot of enemies as threatening in the early game. You can avoid more enemies than you have to. You never need to find out just how dangerous they are.

Escape consumables aside, any but the most irrelevant defensive/offensive consumables are rare but ridiculously powerful early on. For example, !might gives a stupendous increase in damage early on, %-wise, and few early monsters see invisible. So your early consumable awareness is limited to "really good".

Later on, it's hard to tell whether a particular defensive/offensive consumable gives you enough of an edge in combat. If a Heal Wounds used to give you half your health back, now you could lose it all in one more turn. If that !might used to make you 300% more powerful, it might make you 50% more powerful now. Is that good enough? You haven't even had to ask yourself such a question before! So it's a question/puzzle that only starts to arise later in the game. That is how early game supports "consumable ignorance".

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 18th June 2015, 22:40

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Sorry, I am even more confused now. Wikipedia writes "Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge)".
So your point is that consumables make early game too easy without any knowledge about consumables, just because all of them are OP at this stage?
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1283

Joined: Thursday, 16th April 2015, 22:39

Post Thursday, 18th June 2015, 23:43

Re: Have you ever felt like in Crawl the game just gets hard

Well, yes, except I'm not calling early game "too easy". You know that consumables are super-duper in the beginning, but that knowledge just isn't good enough later on. Especially when you're facing all-new monsters.
Previous

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 111 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.