Why is mutagenic meat still in the game?

[dowan]

Quaffing from sparkling fountains was removed because it tempted new players to do something stupid, or something along those lines. So why is there still mutagenic meat in the game?

I don't mind the option of taking dumb risks, but it just seems inconsistent that one dumb risk was removed, while another is kept.

Also, why doesn't mutagenic meat give nutrition? At least then there'd be the edge case of a starving character forced to eat mutagenic meat to survive.

[njvack]

I can only assume they're still in there for... flavor.

>BA DA BUMM CHING<

I don't see it being any worse than !mutation

[Sandman25]

It is useful when you want to remove teleportitis or berserkitis. Also it is fun you have 2+ potions of cure mutation (rMut makes it even more nice)

[Pollen_Golem]

Fountain-quaffing must have gone out because you have no way of knowing that it's a possibility. I remember being very surprised when I pressed 'q' while I happened to be standing on a fountain tile, and the game asked, "Drink from the fountain?"

Maybe mutation chunks give no nutrition so that you could gorge on mutagenic chunks without, say, evoking invisibility repeatedly to get back to hungry. I'd still prefer them giving nutrition. Maybe they could me made edible at satiated? "This meat tastes very weird, but sweet and yummy."

[mps]

It's soup. DCSS gotta have soup.

[Pollen_Golem]

Fountain soup. Eww...
Dropping meat chunks into it lets you eat while satiated.

[dowan]

I can only assume they're still in there for... flavor.

>BA DA BUMM CHING<

I don't see it being any worse than !mutation

I'd agree, except !mutation works as discouragement from quaff iding potions.

And it's not like sparkling fountains were always a bad idea, in fact it seems like they were a slightly better idea than eating mutagenic meat. Taking a crazy risk is better than just dying, after all.

So it's not that I'm totally against mutagenic meat, and I wasn't really against sparkling fountain quaffing. I just don't understand how one gets the axe and not the other. I realize I'm extremely late to be complaining about the removal of fountain quaffing, but oh well, it's just something I thought of the other day and it doesn't really seem to make sense to me.

[duvessa]

if !mutation were removed it would change quaff IDing very little, the potions that really discourage quaff IDing are !hw, !haste, !might, etc.
consider that a potion that does nothing (like !degen or !poison much of the time) actually encourages quaff IDing since it makes using a scroll worse on average

[bcadren]

Mutagenic meat. - Good mutation. [YAY good mutation.] - Bad mutation [Xom finds this amusing.]

It's a win-win!

[PleasingFungus]

Quaffing from sparkling fountains was removed because it tempted new players to do something stupid, or something along those lines.

Do you have a source for this?

From my perspective, sparkling fountains were quite a lot more complicated than mutagenic chunks. They, like other fountains, were also pretty weird; who would expect that the 'q' key, which in all other circumstances brings up the inventory quaffing menu, would interact with these very specific terrain features? Nethack players, probably. (Boo! Hiss!)

Mutagenic chunks, in contrast, are simple, clean fun.

Also, why doesn't mutagenic meat give nutrition? At least then there'd be the edge case of a starving character forced to eat mutagenic meat to survive.

Beats me.

(That being said, I don't think we have any desire to incentivize people to eat purple meat; plenty of people already do so, for reasons of 'fun', whatever that is. Might be nice to make them give nutrition for consistency, but I'd neither expect nor want that to actually change player behaviour.)

e: actually, them giving nutrition would probably mean you couldn't eat them unless you were hungry, which would be annoying for people gobbling down the purple. so perhaps best to leave it as-is.

[Sandman25]

if !mutation were removed it would change quaff IDing very little, the potions that really discourage quaff IDing are !hw, !haste, !might, etc.
consider that a potion that does nothing (like !degen or !poison much of the time) actually encourages quaff IDing since it makes using a scroll worse on average

It depends on player. I don't care as much about wasting a good potion as I care about getting teleportitis, berserkitis or even deformed body.

[dowan]

Quaffing from sparkling fountains was removed because it tempted new players to do something stupid, or something along those lines.

Do you have a source for this?

Mainly just this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11146&p=176946&hilit=fountain#p154502

Most reasons given in support of their removal was that it was generally a bad idea to quaff them, and mostly only served to trick new players into doing something stupid.

[Lasty]

e: actually, them giving nutrition would probably mean you couldn't eat them unless you were hungry, which would be annoying for people gobbling down the purple. so perhaps best to leave it as-is.

Last I recall, you did need to get hungry before you could eat them, but maybe that was already changed. I haven't tried to eat one since 0.11 or so.

[PleasingFungus]

Last I recall, you did need to get hungry before you could eat them, but maybe that was already changed. I haven't tried to eat one since 0.11 or so.

iirc the only requirement is that you can't be engorged (which is just for technical ease-of-code reasons); even if you do have to be hungry, though, it's still much easier to eat multiple mutagenic chunks if they don't provide nutrition.

Mainly just this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11146&p=176946&hilit=fountain#p154502

Most reasons given in support of their removal was that it was generally a bad idea to quaff them, and mostly only served to trick new players into doing something stupid.

Yeah, looking at minmay's reasoning there, the main problem was the complexity and the intermingling of tactical & strategic effects.

[bcadren]

Non-Carnivores had to be hungry, last I checked.

[Sandman25]

It is not the case in trunk.

[tasonir]

For what it's worth lately I've been a bit more inclined to eat them just because it's fun/interesting, even if it isn't really optimal. As long as you have at least one cure mutation potion you probably won't screw yourself over, although it does mean you don't have the cure mutation potion for later.

[n1000]

lots of players underestimate the strength of intentional mutation. Cure mutation potions are useless in most games, so if you have one and get a purple chunk it's usually worth taking the chance at gaining an aux, some scales, blink, etc. against the possibility of having to use one cure mut potion. It's fine to save a single one if you're especially worried, but I would suggest it's optimal, not just fun, to eat purple chunks if you have 2+ cmuts and don't already have good mutations.

I generally don't get mutated until Zot 5 in a three-rune game and at least half the time I don't even bother checking which mutation the orb of fire inflicted since the game is so close to being over by that point. Of course it's better to check, but I'm sure I have never died because of neglect in this particular case.

[Sandman25]

It depends on MR. With low MR it's possible to get banished multiple times and run out of potions of cure mutation long before Zot. The better player you are and the stronger character you have the less optimal mutation roulette becomes: you will win without good mutations anyway but you can die because of bad mutations.

[pickled_heretic]

I used to carry an amulet of the gourmand just so I could stuff my face full of mutachunks whenever a purple corpse showed up.

Best change in .16/trunk IMO (I think it is in .16)

[ololoev]

U don touch my mutageneek meat u bastad!!

[dowan]

I remember a game when I found 3 cure mut potions on D1. I took the opportunity to drink a bunch of mut potions, it was a fun time. It doesn't happen to me that often, usually I just get the 1 cure mut potion for the whole damn game, but it is fun to play mut roulette when that does happen.

Usually though, I find a benemut potion or two before this happens, and once I already have a couple good mutations I don't want to chance losing them if I have to quaff cure mut.

Yeah, looking at minmay's reasoning there, the main problem was the complexity and the intermingling of tactical & strategic effects.

Sparkling fountains are nothing more than a trap for unspoiled players, and blood fountains are the same as a bunch of blood potions that happen to be nailed to the floor. I don't find either of these things fun, and I think they'd be much better off being strictly decorative.

1.131% chance of something useful (beneficial mutation), 8.294% chance of something bad (mutation, decay), 90.575% chance of nothing (everything else*). Not only do you get a bad result 8 out of 9 times you get a result at all, it's a bad result that is very likely to be more detrimental than the good result is beneficial.

*okay, curing and heal wounds are useful if you happen to be running around with rot, which I suppose is fairly likely considering that you think it's a good idea to drink from sparkling fountains. Even then I can't imagine it would ever be a good idea though.

I'm not seeing that reason given anywhere in the thread, and definitely not by minmay. The reason given over and over is that it's just a terrible idea to quaff from sparkling fountains, and then only with the assumption that they're only quaffed outside combat situations. Also, are you saying minmay is in charge of what gets removed from crawl? I don't think that is true, otherwise there would be nothing but D1 and a jackal pack.

Bring back fountain quaffing 2015! If mutation roulette is fun and good to have in crawl, then why isn't potion roulette (With built in mutation roulette!) a fun and good thing to have in crawl?

[duvessa]

well my actual reason for wanting fountain quaffing removed was, and still is, that it was, and still is, stupid, but I get thanks more often if I use some buzzwords instead. also many devs had wanted to remove it for approximately forever

[dowan]

Sorry to drag your name and old quotes into the conversation at all, but PF brought up your posts in that thread. I was just pointing out that you didn't say what he said you said, and I only brought that up because

Do you have a source for this?

in response to

Quaffing from sparkling fountains was removed because it tempted new players to do something stupid, or something along those lines.

[duvessa]

I don't mind you posting my quotes. But seriously I had nothing to do with them being removed.

[duvessa]

Anyway, if you didn't want sparkling fountains removed, all you had to do was add a sparkling fountain god. Doesn't matter how obviously irrelevant/bad they are, it worked fine for food, curses, and gold

[Blobbo]

New Gozag ability: golden shower. Manifests a sparkling fountain which heals you when quaffed, but you suffer -5 to dignity permanently.

[PleasingFungus]

Anyway, if you didn't want sparkling fountains removed, all you had to do was add a sparkling fountain god. Doesn't matter how obviously irrelevant/bad they are, it worked fine for food, curses, and gold

if not for gozag, we'd have already removed gold from crawl... what a beautiful dream!

[dowan]

Let's add a new god: Wontdo

He just picks 5 or 6 items off the won't do list at random, per game, and allows you to do them. Obviously you hope for dual wielding and selling to shops, but if you're unlucky you get farming or a two headed ogre character.

[pickled_heretic]

but if you're unlucky you get ... a two headed ogre character.

Says you.

[duvessa]

Let's add a new god: Wontdo

He just picks 5 or 6 items off the won't do list at random, per game, and allows you to do them. Obviously you hope for dual wielding and selling to shops, but if you're unlucky you get farming or a two headed ogre character.

https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#implemented_wont_do

[tasonir]

So this is clearly ancedotal evidence, and your results may vary, but here's my mutations in my latest run where I ate 5-10 mutagenic chunks (I stopped when I was happy with the overall set):

  Code:

 <Troll racial mutations>
You have a pair of small horns on your head.
You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2).
You are partially covered in rugged brown scales (AC +1, +3% HP).
You are partially covered in thin metallic scales (AC +2).
You tend to lose your temper in combat.
You possess an exceptional clarity of mind.
Your body sometimes deteriorates upon taking damage.
Your flesh is heat resistant.
Your spells are a little harder to cast, but a little more powerful.

Especially for a troll in light armor (Wearing another troll's skin, why not), the +5 total AC mutations is really nice. Clarity takes out the berserk mutation (I am also with ashenzari so it's redundant, but still), so the only negative is degeneration. I have to say I really like the new degeneration mechanics, where it's healed by EXP. I tend to only lose stats on hard hits, which don't come up too often if you play well, and then they heal off pretty fast. So instead of being a random clock, you can now manage degeneration with careful tactics/preparation.

Wild magic is a bit more of a double edged sword than usual, as it's hard to get spells castable on trolls, but I'd still call it at least neutral/slightly good. I am casting spells like repel/regen, and I want to get statue form online eventually, if I find the spell, I haven't yet. I have haste, but haven't decided on committing to it yet.

[Rast]

You tend to lose your temper in combat.
You possess an exceptional clarity of mind.

Does clarity flat-out block the rage mutation?

[duvessa]

yes

[dowan]

So... tavern opinion on mutation roulette seems to have shifted somewhat. That's good, I do agree there are times where it's a worthwhile gamble, such as when you find a bunch of early cmut potions.

[XuaXua]

Let's add a new god: Wontdo

He just picks 5 or 6 items off the won't do list at random, per game, and allows you to do them. Obviously you hope for dual wielding and selling to shops, but if you're unlucky you get farming or a two headed ogre character.

https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#implemented_wont_do

That's not really dual wielding; it's just a super-powerful short blade that requires two-hands.

[duvessa]

So... tavern opinion on mutation roulette seems to have shifted somewhat. That's good, I do agree there are times where it's a worthwhile gamble, such as when you find a bunch of early cmut potions.

i always assumed "mutation roulette" was a bad name for the bad practice of randomly mutating without cmut, since if you have cmut then it's not a gamble since you can't lose anything...

[Pereza0]

I like random mutations.

Its a fun way to spice up your game, make your character unique and improve your chances (or ehm... create an extra challenging game experience!)

[Sandman25]

since if you have cmut then it's not a gamble since you can't lose anything...

You still can lose potions of cure mutation and regret about it later.

[jejorda2]

Should *rage mutations be negative ranks of the clarity mutation, just to keep from having both and removing the danger of *rage?

If levels of clarity are needed (I don't think they are):
1)Confusion happens just as frequently and has the same duration, but there is a 2/3 chance that attempts to cast spells, read scrolls, move, etc will work even when confused. "You can sometimes maintain control of your thoughts."
2)Today's clarity (confusion immunity): You are in control of your thoughts.
3)Clarity plus immunity to intelligence draining: You maintain complete control of your mind.

[XuaXua]

Beneficial Mutations creating positive mutations isn't great when you get horns/antenna | hooves and are wearing a pretty super-awesome helmet | boots.

[dowan]

Is anyone ever happy to get horns, antenna, or hooves? At least claws give a considerable damage bonus, if you happen to be using unarmed.

[Sar]

hooves used to be great when they ignored AC

RIP

[WingedEspeon]

if !mutation were removed it would change quaff IDing very little, the potions that really discourage quaff IDing are !hw, !haste, !might, etc.
consider that a potion that does nothing (like !degen or !poison much of the time) actually encourages quaff IDing since it makes using a scroll worse on average

It depends on player. I don't care as much about wasting a good potion as I care about getting teleportitis, berserkitis or even deformed body.

I'm weary of quaffing !benmute ever since I got hoove 1 on a SpEn from one.

[Sandman25]

I'm weary of quaffing !benmute ever since I got hoove 1 on a SpEn from one.

Is losing 0.55 levels in Stealth for extra aux attack so bad?

[WingedEspeon]

I'm weary of quaffing !benmute ever since I got hoove 1 on a SpEn from one.

Is losing 0.55 levels in Stealth for extra aux attack so bad?

considering most of my damage was from stabs so the aux attack damage was rather low, yes, when you take into account that more mutations means that you could end up removing it with a !cure mute when your trying to get rid of the bezeritis that you could get malmutated with later in the game.

[Sandman25]

considering most of my damage was from stabs so the aux attack damage was rather low, yes, when you take into account that more mutations means that you could end up removing it with a !cure mute when your trying to get rid of the bezeritis that you could get malmutated with later in the game.

Your stabbing damage wasn't changed, hooves (and other Stealth- factors) don't decrease it.

[WingedEspeon]

considering most of my damage was from stabs so the aux attack damage was rather low, yes, when you take into account that more mutations means that you could end up removing it with a !cure mute when your trying to get rid of the bezeritis that you could get malmutated with later in the game.

Your stabbing damage wasn't changed, hooves (and other Stealth- factors) don't decrease it.

I know. But monsters waking up do change my stab damage.

[rockygargoyle]

Remember that flight removes hooves' stealth penalty.