Game of Thrones

[Blobbo]

I've lost interest to be honest. Last few episodes just reinforced the notion that this series is just torture porn set in a pseudo fantasy setting.

[XuaXua]

I've lost interest to be honest. Last few episodes just reinforced the notion that this series is just torture porn set in a pseudo fantasy setting.

(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻

[Rast]

A lot of the "cliffhangers" were to just give them an extra year to write.

Stannis is 99% dead... unless they decide they need him after all for Ramsay to torture.
Myrcella is dead too... but they didn't show her stop breathing, just in case they need her alive a little longer.
Sansa survived the jump. Theon too, probably. But still an extra year to decide how badly they were injured and where their plot goes next.
Jon Snow is dead. He's going to warg into Ghost, then get rez'ed by the red witch... but we never saw him stop breathing. So that can be changed too, if need be.

[tasonir]

So I avoided this thread last week as I hadn't caught up yet, but I've now finished season 5.

Agree that the fight in the colosseum had way too many harpies - they really shouldn't have been everywhere. If you give them slightly better fighting skills and aren't killing them off each in one shot from a plot character, you could make a pack of say 20 of them into a very credible threat and still have D call the dragon and escape. Or even have 30, but it seemed like the harpy count was at least 100, and possibly even 200-300.

I don't think any of the major characters who obviously died (stannis/jon snow/mrycella) will be resurrected by magic. Sansa and theon are probably still alive. Speaking of theon:

Yet no one was outraged when they mailed that one guy's ding dong to his dad and sister.

I guess the difference was that he was an adult, who had himself killed two children (child murder is the jaywalking of Westeros) and done a bunch of other bad stuff.

I'd say Theon is more sympathetic, at least to me, than this sounds. Certainly he's done terrible things and was completely insane in taking over winterfell, but I feel like he did it only out of a longing for a sense of belonging. Being sent off as a child, rejected by his family, told vaguely that he has to be more militant/pay the iron price/etc etc...he over compensates and goes way too far, certainly. But I don't think of him as an evil character, more of a tragic one. He was completely underprepared when he first left winterfell, and completely botched his return to it.

[mps]

If Jon Snow dies, there's no character at the wall to continue the story there. The scene with Jon Snow and Melisandre earlier in the season pretty much says outright that Jon Snow actually is the son of Rhaegar Targaryan and bringing her back to the wall before he gets stabbed kinda tips the writers' hand re: the cliffhanger.

Agreed re: Myrcella and Stannis though. I have to say, I was surprised Stannis didn't end up winning.

[Blobbo]

I was surprised Stannis didn't end up winning.

Part of a long line of shit that makes no sense.

So he went north and defeated a huge army of wildlings without even trying much. Where were his supply lines? How did he manage to project his forces so far from Dragonstone? Why did he piss around in Castle Black for so long if his objective was Winterfell? Why did he give a shit about some wildlings when his main campaign was to take Westeros? If he felt he needed to sacrifice his daughter, why do it in public and totally destroy the morale of his non Rhlorrist mercenaries and make them desert? How did Ramsay's 20 super-ninjas destroy his entire army's food source, if they could just walk in and do this why not just assassinate Stannis?

Ellaria Sand's actions made no sense either. Killing Myrcella while Tristane's on the boat, wtf? How is Doran supposed to not kill her now for going rogue like that? I don't read the books but on scanning the wiki it looks like none of this happened in the books.

Jon Snow's murder just takes the cake. I was super confused about why Alliser Thorne and gang would choose to kill him now for bringing in the wildlings when he could have done that way earlier, BEFORE they received first hand accounts of how the ice zombies or whatever were totally kicking their asses. There was zero reasons for them to do this and it looked like it just came out of nowhere. Apparently in the books they killed him for a completely different (somewhat more believable) reason, still a bit thin but not as totally arbitrary and random as the TV show.

This season's writing is sloppy as hell and really can be summed up as the series producer's interpreting GRRM's narrative as "random bad things happening to stupid people for no reason", yeah got it let's just run with that.

[dowan]

Yeah, I'm noticing a pattern of huge armies unexpectedly coming out of nowhere to utterly crush forces that were previously thought to be far superior. Either military intelligence in westeros just sucks, or there's some really sloppy writing going on... Armies tend to be fairly noticeable...

[nago]

Despite the endless illogical things happened, I've found this season still enjoyable enough though, but mostly for the part closer to the books... But I fear the following one, as there should be very little material from books left, is going to be a fantasy torture porn without any sense. I have only hope left for the dwarf's part, they did a decent job even without proper source and what's more the boring blonde queen is again far from him. Hurrah!

[Rast]

Yeah, I'm noticing a pattern of huge armies unexpectedly coming out of nowhere to utterly crush forces that were previously thought to be far superior. Either military intelligence in westeros just sucks, or there's some really sloppy writing going on... Armies tend to be fairly noticeable...

While I agree with you on this in general, my impression was that the forces which smashed Stannis were largely made up of the cavalry who deserted him.

Still no explanation for how half his army snuck away from him in the middle of the night along with all his horses.

[dowan]

Stannis's tragic flaw was apparently that he couldn't be bothered to post any night guards.

So you think Stannis' forces that deserted him joined up with the Boltons? I suppose that's a possible explanation, although the army that crushed them seemed to be like 5 times bigger, so I don't understand how they thought they were going to win, even without the desertion.

[Magipi]

So he went north and defeated a huge army of wildlings without even trying much.

A huge army that contains mostly untrained footmen plus a lot of women, children, animals and carriages. Compared to that, Stannis had a real army with knights on horseback, the real deal in Westerosi warfare. Lord Commander Mormont wanted to crush Mance's army with an even smaller force (300, if I remember correctly).

Where were his supply lines? How did he manage to project his forces so far from Dragonstone?

He had no supply lines, just packed the remnants of his army on the remnants of his fleet, and sailed North.

Why did he piss around in Castle Black for so long if his objective was Winterfell?

He had nowhere near enough power to take Winterfell. He was waiting for a miracle, and he got it: the Iron Bank gave him a loan to hire sellswords, and Jon Snow connected him to the northern small lords.

Why did he give a shit about some wildlings when his main campaign was to take Westeros?

Ser Davos advised him to go help the Watch, showing the world who is the only responsible king in Westeros.

If he felt he needed to sacrifice his daughter, why do it in public and totally destroy the morale of his non Rhlorrist mercenaries and make them desert?

Presumably that was Melisandre's advice.

How did Ramsay's 20 super-ninjas destroy his entire army's food source, if they could just walk in and do this why not just assassinate Stannis?

A king is usually better guarded than a food storage, and also a food storage is more flammable.

Ellaria Sand's actions made no sense either. Killing Myrcella while Tristane's on the boat, wtf? How is Doran supposed to not kill her now for going rogue like that? I don't read the books but on scanning the wiki it looks like none of this happened in the books.

Most of this happened, although rather differently. There the party was lead by Doran's own daugter, the crown princess, who's a rather naive girl used by a mysterious dark stranger whose name I've totally forgotten. One of the worst part of the books.

Jon Snow's murder just takes the cake. (...) Apparently in the books they killed him for a completely different (somewhat more believable) reason, still a bit thin but not as totally arbitrary and random as the TV show.

As I remember, they killed him for exactly the same reasons: for dealing with the wildlings, for getting mixed into Stannis's things, and because half the Watch hated his guts. Maybe the weights were different.

This season's writing is sloppy as hell and really can be summed up as the series producer's interpreting GRRM's narrative as "random bad things happening to stupid people for no reason", yeah got it let's just run with that.

This season's writing was much better than George's own. The 4th and 5th books are truly bad, and they succeeded to make a rather enjoyable season out of nothing.

[pickled_heretic]

I don't care one bit about the tv show, but I am with you on book 4-5 being garbage.

[Blobbo]

Where were his supply lines? How did he manage to project his forces so far from Dragonstone?

He had no supply lines, just packed the remnants of his army on the remnants of his fleet, and sailed North.

Oh sweet mercy. So much for being a great war leader, a three year old could tell you that's a terrible idea.

[Magipi]

Where were his supply lines? How did he manage to project his forces so far from Dragonstone?

He had no supply lines, just packed the remnants of his army on the remnants of his fleet, and sailed North.

Oh sweet mercy. So much for being a great war leader, a three year old could tell you that's a terrible idea.

He had no real chance after the defeat at the Blackwater, his army was crushed and he had no allies. A sensible man would have given up his claim at that point.

[tasonir]

Alright, I may have underestimated the chances for Jon Snow's revival. I do agree the lead up to the Stannis/Bolton fight raises a lot of poorly-answered questions.

I think they were going for "rely on an evil witch for all your advice and it will be your downfall" but they had to wrap the season and so it got packed into roughly 15 minutes. I really liked the battle being shown in an aerial view - it really shows how bad their chances were. Not only did half his troops abandon him the day before, but about half the troops still there were trying to run away from the battle itself, although I doubt many/any of them outran calvary. Plus after the huge fight against the white walkers north of the wall we really didn't need another 20 minute battle scene. Stannis was basically doomed when he put all of his trust in Melisandre, but they had it look like she might be able to pull it off (making stannis king) for several seasons and then the turn around "nope you're screwed" gets packed into a few episodes, with most of it only in the very final episode. If anything it seems like a pacing/season length issue to me.

Also, for a series which generally disregards plot armor, having stannis somehow survive the battle doesn't seem to make much sense. He'd be far more likely to be killed by Bolton's army than Brianne. Did Bolton order them not to kill Stannis? Can't see any reason why they'd leave him alive, and he did fight off those last two Bolton troops.

[tasonir]

He had no real chance after the defeat at the Blackwater, his army was crushed and he had no allies. A sensible man would have given up his claim at that point.

Sensible men would likely not want to sit on the iron throne at all. About the only sensible character I can think of is Doran Martell. Out of curiousity, why did you call it "the blackwater"? That's the battle at king's landing, correct? Is blackwater the bay outside king's landing? I haven't read the books, so my geography of westeros isn't terribly strong. If that's when his military force was broken, it would be poetic that he lost his military to magic (wildfire) as well as his personal character/integrity to magic (Melisandre). Although I think he's still pretty culpable for the both, I'm not sure there's much to suggest melisandre has any mind control powers, merely the standard seduction/offering of power which Stannis couldn't resist.

Edit: also, throughout season 5 I kept expecting king Tommen to be disposed - he is utterly weak, and the lannisters have lost nearly all of their power as well. I would have liked him to have at least some sort of arc about being trained/learning to rule, but it seems like he never will. And after thinking about it for a while, there's almost no one left to attack him who is powerful/ready to move - everyone else is pretty much crippled themselves at this point. Daenerys is probably the strongest, although continuing revolts are weakening her forces, but she's also not nearly ready to sail to westeros, and most people in westeros are pretty happy staying where they are. Seems like the Boltons are still reasonably powerful, but are also not really moving out from winterfell either. So everyone's screwed, no one's moving, and with it being winter movement isn't going to be terribly easy, either. Unless you're a white walker.

[Magipi]

The battle is called the Battle of the Blackwater. The bay is Blackwater Bay, and also the river is the Blackwater Rush. It is on the river where the most decisive part of the battle took place, when Tyrion fucking Lannister trapped the Baratheon fleet and set it on fire.

[quik]

As I remember, they killed him for exactly the same reasons: for dealing with the wildlings, for getting mixed into Stannis's things, and because half the Watch hated his guts. Maybe the weights were different.

I haven't read the books, but I've read the wiki: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jo ... th_Dragons

Quote (spoiler from the books ahead):

Spoiler: show

"(...) [Jon announces] his intention to ride South against the Boltons. He does not order the Night's Watch to fight with him, but asks both wildlings and black brothers alike to join him of their own volition. Jon's decision (which is in violation of his oaths) causes great discontent within the Watch's upper leadership; (...) he is stabbed repeatedly (...) Whether or not Jon survives this attack is currently unknown."

The violation of the oath as the reason to kill him makes more sense to me.

In my opinion, almost every time the TV show moves away from the books, the script is clearly worse.

[Magipi]

The war is practically over, all the pretenders are dead, except for Euron Greyjoy who is so insignificant that he did not even appear in the series

Also note that Daenerys is VERY far away from Westeros right now. The whole thing about distances and travelling times is a bloody mess in the books, and it is elegantly avoided in the series, but she is certainly far-far away.

Quik: thanks! I need to reread those chapters. I still think that dealing with the wildlings was the main reason that alienated almost everybody, but I will read.

[tasonir]

Yeah, I have just checked a "known world" map, since they apparently haven't mapped the entire world yet. Westeros in the west (an accurate name), essos in the east (well it begins with E). There's that third place to the south east but let's ignore it - the narrow sea between westeros and essos isn't that hard to cross, but Meereen is also about 2/3 of the way across essos, quite far east of westeros. And if you're going by sea, you have to sail a good bit south to get around whole valyria area, which as we recently saw is also quite dangerous to try to go through, with the 'stone men' ambushes and such. Probably better to go over land, but then you still have the problem of having to suddenly have a large number of ships available once you reach the narrow sea.

While they've diverged a decent amount at this point, it's my understanding that the show and the book series are more or less caught up/have roughly equal plot advancement at this point, so no one really knows the future for sure.

[Magipi]

While they've diverged a decent amount at this point, it's my understanding that the show and the book series are more or less caught up/have roughly equal plot advancement at this point, so no one really knows the future for sure.

Yes, the show has been rather true to the books, with some minor changes, mostly about moving important characters to places where important things happen. In the books, a lot of major characters are very far from the action (most notably Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, Davos, Sansa, Bronn).

The books converge towards two large battles (at Winterfell and at Meereen), but incredibly neither one is in the books, the ending of book 5 is simply cut off. Quite annoying.

[mps]

GRRM feeds the production people with content from future books, so I suspect a lot of the stuff that was in season 5 that surpassed the events of the books will appear in coming books (if they are actually published/written). Obviously, that wouldn't include stuff like Bronn and Jaime in Dorne, but probably does include the Stannis storyline and perhaps the Sansa storyline in some form, though it seems to have been fashioned out of the Mance Rayder/Theon/Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya storyline from the books to some extent.

[terence]

I love all the episodes of game of thrones. Why, simply because the stories focuses on survivability. Fighting for power and gaining armies.

_______________
nunchaku

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I've thoroughly liked the HBO series so far, but I must admit that I sort of lost it in the last season. Every likeable character is dead, who am I supposed to root for? The white walker? I had a thought that I'd be perfectly ok for the white walkers to take over. It's great that nobody has plot armour, but who am I to root for in the end when everybody's dead?

[tasonir]

Arya's probably one of my favorite characters, and she isn't dead yet! I mean, she's just totally blind, on a character whose whole life seems to be about sword fighting...It's probably karma for insisting the hound die a slow death or something

[Magipi]

Arya's probably one of my favorite characters, and she isn't dead yet! I mean, she's just totally blind, on a character whose whole life seems to be about sword fighting...It's probably karma for insisting the hound die a slow death or something

Blindness is obviously a part of her training.

(Also, the truly popular characters never die, no matter how improbable it is that they survive everything. Arya, Tyrion, Bran, Dany and Davos are certainly in this category.)

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Jon Snow was my favourite character. Killing him killed the show for me. He was the ultimate hero guy, and now he's dead? I'm sorry, I just don't care who "wins" at this point anymore.

[Magipi]

Come on, nobody really believes that Jon is really dead.

[tasonir]

I could certainly see Davos dying, but I think you're probably right about the rest. Dany seems a bit too invincible, although the other three manage to pull off surviving everything in a somewhat believable manner, imho. Tyrion and Bran in particular, who seem to be skilled at ducking and avoiding trouble as much as possible because they're rather fond of living. It still follows them everywhere, and I'm not terribly sure I'd have ever agreed to go to Dawn if I was Bran, but at least they're fairly sensible about not getting into conflict if there's any way to avoid it. Arya seems mostly lucky, but being able to seize opportunity when it's right in front of her is still a notable skill. She lacks the restraint that tyrion/bran show, which has lead to things like her blindness.

Also it's super late at this point but I realized the original post in this thread called the lord of a light a demon god! How dare you! You will burn in his righteous flame, the holiest of holy powers! (I'm still personally aligned with the many faced god, though.)

[njvack]

Come on, nobody really believes that Jon is really dead.

This, of course, is why Jon actually is dead.

[Magipi]

Come on, nobody really believes that Jon is really dead.

This, of course, is why Jon actually is dead.

That would be a gutsy move from George, showing that even crowd favorites can be killed. An interesting possibility.

Also, if Jon is really the son of those we think he is (L + R, and that is close to certain) than he seems to have a place in the endgame. But who knows.

[Sprucery]

That would be a gutsy move from George, showing that even crowd favorites can be killed. An interesting possibility.

Wasn't Ned already a crowd favorite?

[Rast]

Season six hits in nine days.

[prozacelf]

Yay!

[Arrhythmia]

More like, Lame of Groans!!!!!!!!

[Rast]

So hey how about season 7?

[Majang]

I'm reading Robert Jordan, instead.

[ZipZipskins]

More like, Lame of Groans!!!!!!!!

[Rast]

I'm reading Robert Jordan, instead.

Spoiler, he dies before the end of the series.

[Majang]

I'm reading Robert Jordan, instead.

Spoiler, he dies before the end of the series.

Which means I have to read less of him.

[mattlistener]

Season 5 is getting too television-y for my tastes, I have to say. The previous seasons seemed to deal with the material in the book in a way that worked well given time constraints and kept things tight/well-planned, but now it seems like there's a lack of material to work with and it's being filled in with garbage (see the Jaime and Bronn in Dorne side plot).

Fortunately they've turned a corner on this now. The showrunners have full outlines in hand for the rest of the arc, so they know where they're going and how they'll get there. Season 7 will be 7 episodes, and Season 8 (the last) will be 6 episodes. No filler.

[Fingolfin]

Season 5 is getting too television-y for my tastes, I have to say. The previous seasons seemed to deal with the material in the book in a way that worked well given time constraints and kept things tight/well-planned, but now it seems like there's a lack of material to work with and it's being filled in with garbage (see the Jaime and Bronn in Dorne side plot).

Fortunately they've turned a corner on this now. The showrunners have full outlines in hand for the rest of the arc, so they know where they're going and how they'll get there. Season 7 will be 7 episodes, and Season 8 (the last) will be 6 episodes. No filler.

I still love the series, but I feel like seasons 6&7 are racing to the end, not taking enough time (people keep teleporting all the time and everything is always action-packed).