Octo Monk?

[GrumpD]

Firstly, I realize that n=1 recommendations are flawed and unhelpful. But...octopode monk of Chei seems very effective. Constriction seems like a real advantage early, and unarmed seems strong and like a convenient choice because it is guaranteed. A player can invest in UC with the starting bump for Monk, and in so doing be less subject to the whims of the RNG for weapons.

Up until Layer, a player can invest in Fighting and UC as seems appropriate, and then dive into Invo and spell skills once survivability and melee feel adequate.

I would recommend this combo for new players. I think it encourages better tactics in combat, allows easier skill management, and exposes the player to melee and magic combat options. There's a steep learning curve to be sure, but that isn't out of keeping with the Crawl experience in general.

One other point: Octo Monk is a great hybrid, and it seems that many new players engage with the game under false expectations (fighters hit stuff, mages case spells).

Why not recommend Monk for Octopodes?

[tasonir]

I, of course, love the combo and have played several of them. But as far recommending it for newbies, you have to remember that 1 ac melee isn't something that makes for an easy, smooth learning experience. Especially if you can't run away after taking a bad hit.

The combo becomes all sorts of crazy overpowered later on with statue form, of course. I don't think anyone denies that - but you don't enter the dungeon at level 17.

[GrumpD]

I, of course, love the combo and have played several of them. But as far recommending it for newbies, you have to remember that 1 ac melee isn't something that makes for an easy, smooth learning experience. Especially if you can't run away after taking a bad hit.

The combo becomes all sorts of crazy overpowered later on with statue form, of course. I don't think anyone denies that - but you don't enter the dungeon at level 17.

I see where you're coming from. At the same time, I feel like that squishy, low AC state, is a great tool for forcing new players to adapt to running, using corners, luring enemies into hallways, etc.

In a sense, I feel like OpMo forces a player to develop tactics earlier, and so it might be a good recommendation because it's instructive.

[Sar]

I think tactics is something that develops naturally and I prefer to advise new players strong combos (because they can stumble upon a weak one by themselves).

OpMo^Chei sounds positively horrifying. I'm actually struggling to think of a worse combo!

[duvessa]

Why not recommend Monk for Octopodes?

Because monk is almost the worst background in the game for octopodes. The only ones I'd say are maybe worse are Wn and CK.

[GrumpD]

I think tactics is something that develops naturally and I prefer to advise new players strong combos (because they can stumble upon a weak one by themselves).

OpMo^Chei sounds positively horrifying. I'm actually struggling to think of a worse one!

I agree with you about tactics--theyre best learned by experience. This combo seems to me to accelerate tactics acquisition because it precludes variables: you can't lure well, weapons training is eliminated, and decisions about equipment are greatly reduced. In my thinkin, that leaves the player focused upon positioning, using consumables well, and it cuts out many questions about skills.

[Sandman25]

One mistake which new player do often is taking unnecessary risk. I suggest to play ImMo (Imp is an experimental species on berotato). It is easier than OpMo, naturally encourages taking advantage of terrain/tactics (Regen 1 and Blinking 2 mutations) but discourages getting low on HP (Teleportitis 2).

[GrumpD]

One mistake which new player do often is taking unnecessary risk. I suggest to play ImMo (Imp is an experimental species on berotato). It is easier than OpMo, naturally encourages taking advantage of terrain/tactics (Regen 1 and Blinking 2 mutations) but discourages getting low on HP (Teleportitis 2).

It sounds like your recommendation would be instructive to new players because it helps them to avoid unnecessary risks. Helpful to be sure, but OpMo seems to elucidate positioning, skill investment, and hybridizing in a very helpful way.

[Sar]

Chei actively punishes repositioning though?

[Sandman25]

It sounds like your recommendation would be instructive to new players because it helps them to avoid unnecessary risks. Helpful to be sure, but OpMo seems to elucidate positioning, skill investment, and hybridizing in a very helpful way.

I think Op is not that good for hybrids. It does not have impressive aptitudes (0 almost everything), lack of AC and -10% HP means that book backgrounds have problems hybridizing while warrior backgrounds are more interested in training more Fighting/Dodging/Stealth than usually.
MfIE, NaVM, DrXX is a better hybrid IMHO.
Imp is bad for learning hybridization but it is much easier for learning skill investments (+2 Fighting, +0 UC, +3 Dodging, +2 Fire).

[GrumpD]

Why not recommend Monk for Octopodes?

Because monk is almost the worst background in the game for octopodes. The only ones I'd say are maybe worse are Wn and CK.

Worst for learning the game or worst for winning?

[Pollen_Golem]

CK is not worst for learning the game because you're going to play like a dumbass in the beginning anyway, so you might as well worship Xom then.

[Sar]

It's more fun to learn the game with easy combos because then you can play hard combos and still have fun.

If you start with weak combos and learn them the easy combos won't be fun at all!

[Sandman25]

CK is not worst for learning the game because you're going to play like a dumbass in the beginning anyway, so you might as well worship Xom then.

Yes, Xom encourages careful play too. I suggested using Xom for teaching new players a year ago, not sure why nobody liked it

[tasonir]

Chei actively punishes repositioning though?

This may be splitting hairs, but I'd rephrase this as:

Chei actively limits repositioning.

It's an important difference. Punishing makes it sound like it's the wrong move - there are plenty times when it's still optimal to move with chei, it is just less than if you weren't with chei. You still need to move during combat with Chei, and usually upon seeing something new you'll still want to retreat back a few tiles, especially if there's a good choke point nearby, which there often is. The difference is you can't go very far at all - normally good tactics say to go back 20-40 tiles, around corners, etc. You're basically just going back to the entrance to the room you're in, and no further.

Taking steps while actually in combat is even riskier, but there are times you want to do it. Mostly against fights that aren't terribly threatening, obviously, but sometimes getting into a better choke is worth 3 turns of damage. Usually around the edge of a corridor:

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##111
..@11
#####

Going left is obviously ideal, even if you're going to take two turns to get there. Once you're there, it is probably worth it to take another step left to get a true 1 on 1, although 1 on 2 isn't terribly bad.

[Sar]

what I meant is that you can still reposition, you will just take hits every time you do so (if you are already in melee, but that's what I tried to imply by adding "re" to "positioning"

but of course that is insulting to Chei, The One True God, and that can not stand!

[Sandman25]

Chei punishes repositioning. Simple example is when you teleported and landed with monsters in LoS. Now you are attacked twice more often than any non-Chei characters while moving.

[tasonir]

what I meant is that you can still reposition, you will just take hits every time you do so (if you are already in melee, but that's what I tried to imply by adding "re" to "positioning"

I managed to miss the "re", so my apologies there.

but of course that is insulting to Chei, The One True God, and that can not stand!

Now you're getting it!

[Sar]

Now you are attacked twice more often than any non-Chei characters while moving.

actually if those are melee enemies it is highly likely that you won't be attacked without Chei at all!

[Arrhythmia]

I've said it before, but Chei's discouragement of repositioning is actually my favorite thing about him, to the point where I've considered modding crawl so every race just moves at cheispeed and worshipping Chei doesn't slow you further.

[pickled_heretic]

CK is not worst for learning the game because you're going to play like a dumbass in the beginning anyway, so you might as well worship Xom then.

Yes, Xom encourages careful play too. I suggested using Xom for teaching new players a year ago, not sure why nobody liked it

I have a friend who I play 40k and other tabletops with, and he plays chaos daemons because he insists on as much random chance as possible. I figured he would like crawl but I couldn't convince him to try it until I made the connection and told him about Xom literally just randomly doing shit to you all game. His very first game he found the xom altar vault with exploding burning sheep and he died laughing. And also died...

[GrumpD]

I'm seeing a lot of replies here (and thank each of you for that), but I'm not seeing many replies that are concerned with new players. That is to say, you folks know from experience what is and isn't good for an ascension, but that, in my opinion, has little to do with what allows players new to the game to learn most effectively.

What wins and what demonstrates mechanics best are likely different things, or so it seems.

[Pollen_Golem]

On the contrary, Octo Monks are difficult to start with, and become more powerful closer to the ascension, which is why they are not recommended for beginners.

[duvessa]

I'm seeing a lot of replies here (and thank each of you for that), but I'm not seeing many replies that are concerned with new players. That is to say, you folks know from experience what is and isn't good for an ascension, but that, in my opinion, has little to do with what allows players new to the game to learn most effectively.

What wins and what demonstrates mechanics best are likely different things, or so it seems.

I think characters that can move demonstrate mechanics pretty well, personally

[pickled_heretic]

no lignify potions for duvessa?

[Pollen_Golem]

OP might enjoy browsing through viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15889

[MrPlanck]

I think I learned the most (except at the very beginning) from Chei and Ash. With Chei I learned to more carefully evaluate positioning and odds of winning an encounter. With Ash I learned what creatures do when I can't see them.

I like opmochei, can be formidable if you can get one going, but would def not recommend to new players.