Small FR: Change Ice Beast name


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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 17:00

Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Currently, we have Sky Beasts and Ice Beasts. Sky Beasts act like their name: they have elec based abilities, but are poisonable. Ice Beasts are not poisonable, and in their description are not remotely organic. This reminds me of the old Bolt of Iron issue where it behaved differently from other Bolts.

Name proposals:

Frozen mauler
Living ice
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 18:18

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

How about we change the name of ice beasts to Ice avatars. Then we'll change the name of white imps to Ice Beasts, because hey, let's just confuse everyone.

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Ok, in an attempt to be actually helpful, how about Ice Elementals? Or Ice Monsters. Abominable Snowthings?

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 18:29

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

No, if you name them abominable snowthings, people will think they leave mutagenic corpses like every other monster in the game whose name ends with "thing." You can imagine their frustration killing abominable snowthing after abominable snowthing waiting for that mutagenic corpse that never comes. If we name them ice elementals, then imagine people's surprise when Elemental Force turns their clouds of ice into water elementals! Ice monsters sound like they might be a little like tentacled monstrosities, then they'll be like, hey, why isn't this thing constricting me?

I'd just go ahead and call them "ice yaks."
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 18:34

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Ice mice.
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 19:27

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

No, yaks, like beasts, and various rodents, are all poisonable animals.

Anyway, the perfect name is Ice golems. (Spellcheck suggests ice Togolese instead, but that sounds really dumb to me)

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 20:02

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

I thought about Ice Golems, but that implies
1. That they are a construct, when they are actually categorized as "Natural"
2. Aren't all golems besides electric slow?

Also, good point about the corpses: another reason they shouldn't be called Beasts.
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 20:05

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Oh, right, they're natural. How about we call them Natural Ice?
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 20:21

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Haha, perfect. Add a note to their description saying "You feel that if you melted this down and drank it, it'd get you good and drunk"

Does the category of 'natural' vs 'construct' have any in game relevance anymore? And also, how the hell is a monster made of ice natural? It's not even based on any kind of animal, real or fantasy.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 22:12

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

dowan wrote:Does the category of 'natural' vs 'construct' have any in game relevance anymore?


If it was a construct it would be impossible to poison it, instead of just very hard; and it would be immune to pain and torment (like all statues). Also it affects Yred Piety and a few other minor things. But mainly the poisoning.

dowan wrote:And also, how the hell is a monster made of ice natural? It's not even based on any kind of animal, real or fantasy.


This is a flavour question and therefore irrelevant.

---

It could be made a construct for all I care; but that's a considerable buff; and that leads me to believe it's natural because a moving construct that early would be too difficult.

Before:
  Code:
ice beast (Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 18-37 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 5(cold:5-14) | amphibious | Res: magic(20), cold+++, poison, drown | Vul: fire | XP: 130 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.


After:
  Code:
ice beast (Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 18-37 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 5(cold:5-14) | non-living, unbreathing | Res: magic(20), cold+++, poison+++, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | Vul: fire | XP: 130 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 22:16

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

It might affect Elyvilon as well
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 23:08

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

As was pointed by bcarden, ice beasts only have regular rPois, not an immunity. They do take damage from Venom Bolt and they can be poisoned by Poison Arrow. There are plenty of natural enemies in Crawl that have rPois so ice beasts are not unique here.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 03:23

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Turn ice beasts into walruses. Make an intelligent walrus Unique called Paul and make him shout lines like "I am the walrus!"

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 05:18

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

beware the dreadful freezing touch of the walrus...

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 05:19

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

anyway, this is an extremely silly thread and should probably be in cyc.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 13:08

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

DOME
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 14:30

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Why CYC? It's a serious suggestion to remove gameplay inconsistency in the same manner that Bolt of Iron was changed.

The fact that nobody besides me gives a shit I guess is a reason to move it, but honestly, it's a really simple fix that makes a lot of sense, unless anyone has a reason not to do it.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 14:42

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

It would be an inconsistency if ice beasts were the only poison resistant monsters in the game, which they are not.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 14:44

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

I have always thought this was slightly odd, myself. I spent maybe 2 seconds thinking it was slightly weird and inconsistent once, then said "eh, whatever" and moved on, but for two seconds there....
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 14:46

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Ice beasts should be poison immune, considering they're "formed of snow and crystalline ice."

I don't think "sky beast" sets enough of a precedent that monsters called "beast" have to be flesh and blood and natural. Hell beasts are demonic.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 14:47

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Sar wrote:It would be an inconsistency if ice beasts were the only poison resistant monsters in the game, which they are not.


And they don't leave corpses. And they are the only rPois beast in the game.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 14:49

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

TeshiAlair wrote:
Sar wrote:It would be an inconsistency if ice beasts were the only poison resistant monsters in the game, which they are not.


And they don't leave corpses. And they are the only rPois beast in the game.

And sky beasts are the only rElec beast in the game. And hell beasts are the only rTorm beast in the game. And those are the only three beasts.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 15:20

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Sky beasts make sense to have rElec in the same way that it makes sense for ice beasts to have rC because they are elemental monsters. Hell beasts are demonic.

Descriptions:
Sky beasts:
"A strange aerial creature formed of clouds and tortured flesh that sparkles with electricity and, every so often, slips entirely from view." aka does have organic matter

Hell beasts:
"An abominable crossbreed between beast and human that makes horrible barking noises."

Ice beasts:
"A terrible creature, formed of snow and crystalline ice. Its feet leave puddles of icy water on the floor." Zero organic matter.

Additionally, it's called the goddamn Lair of Beasts. Are you really going to claim that yaks aren't beasts just because it isn't in the name? Really? Really?

I doubt this will go through because people seem weirdly dedicated to the name Ice Beast even though it makes zero sense because they have no shared qualities with beasts, and there have been dozens of trivial monster name changes in the past that had zero gameplay significance (giant lizard -> iguana for instance), but I made a patch: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9735
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 15:35

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

TeshiAlair wrote:Additionally, it's called the goddamn Lair of Beasts. Are you really going to claim that yaks aren't beasts just because it isn't in the name? Really? Really?

Are you really going to claim that wargs aren't beasts just because it isn't in the name? Really? Really?

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 15:40

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Eh, I'm with you Teshi, your logic makes sense. Beasts are at least partially made of flesh and blood, and should leave a corpse.

NINJAEDIT: Who said wargs aren't beasts? What does that have to do with anything?

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 16:01

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Wargs are poison resistant.
I guess he's trying to say that since some beasts are poison resistant, calling Blue Y's Ice Beasts doesn't lead players to believe they should be poisonable, and thus the name is reasonable.

I like the idea of a name change (and a glyph change) but I haven't heard a suggestion that rings true yet.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 16:07

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Let's change the names of all monsters.

Even better, let's swap names between monsters, so the player confusion will be even greater.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 16:16

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

IMO monster names and attributes should be fully randomized to prevent spoilers

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 16:36

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

For me, personally, I find the notion of a 'beast' that doesn't leave corpses more weird than one that is poison resistant (Poison resistance doesn't have enough of a coherent theme for me personally to attach a set of expected attributes to it) however I do have an expectation that a 'beast' is a "naturally" occurring living being (where 'nature' for these purposes is subject to the pretend reality in which DCSS takes place)

And I think of living things as something that die, and leave corpses behind, if something goes 'poof' or melts entirely away, or discorporates into an otherwise non 'corpselike' form, I tend to assume that it isn't a 'natural' thing, and ice beasts do seem to break this internalized made up rule.

I think anything demonic is allowed to break the rules, because demon, so I disregard 'hell beasts' for the purpose of my internalized made up rule, because I think "demon that is shaped like and acts like a beast" not "half beast" despite the explicit contradiction to this in hell beasts' description (And in my head demons may or may not leave corpses, depending on how "material" they happen to be)

Again, my response to keeping the name, or changing it, is definitely "eh, whatever"
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 16:46

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

I wasn't aware that "beast" was a family of creatures within Crawl; I just found it more weird that Ice Beasts+Ice Form don't get full poison immunity since the descriptions (and water-treading behavior) indicate they're non-organic masses of ice.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 19:16

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

I never noticed that ice beasts don't leave corpses, since there's always a chance of no corpse. Anyway, the behavior of ice beasts seems to suggest that they are mostly made of water and, like a jellyfish, they would leave nothing but a slimy crust if left out in the sun too long. And yet the name, and tile, suggest they are simply bovine mammals adapted to a cold environment:

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 19:18

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

TeshiAlair wrote:Why CYC? ... The fact that nobody besides me gives a shit I guess is a reason to move it

I accept full responsibility for the move. :cry: I like frozen mauler better too.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:42

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

I'll support turning them into constructs with full poison immunity, torment immunity, and rN+++ if that means that ice form the spell also gains those resistances ;) Finally, a useful replacement to necromutation!

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:58

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Now we're getting somewhere! Come get some ice fiends, I'm in ice form! You can't touch me punk!

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 23:29

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Doesnt wrote:I wasn't aware that "beast" was a family of creatures within Crawl; I just found it more weird that Ice Beasts+Ice Form don't get full poison immunity since the descriptions (and water-treading behavior) indicate they're non-organic masses of ice.

canonically, they also have (or had) four limbs, four paws, and two fists. truly mysterious beings

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 23:40

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

Doesnt wrote:I wasn't aware that "beast" was a family of creatures within Crawl; I just found it more weird that Ice Beasts+Ice Form don't get full poison immunity since the descriptions (and water-treading behavior) indicate they're non-organic masses of ice.
mfing STATUES didnt even get full poison immunity in crawl until very recently (and player statues still dont iirc)

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Post Friday, 22nd May 2015, 00:38

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

all statues have (literally) superhuman intelligence. they don't need poison immunity.

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Post Friday, 22nd May 2015, 02:09

Re: Small FR: Change Ice Beast name

duvessa wrote:
Doesnt wrote:I wasn't aware that "beast" was a family of creatures within Crawl; I just found it more weird that Ice Beasts+Ice Form don't get full poison immunity since the descriptions (and water-treading behavior) indicate they're non-organic masses of ice.
mfing STATUES didnt even get full poison immunity in crawl until very recently (and player statues still dont iirc)

Player statues are poison immune.
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