Non-UC Transmutation Start

[bcadren]

Just an idea. A Transmutations-Start that has a weapon instead of UC Skill:

Staring book contains:

• Beastly Appendage
• Stoneskin
• Petrify
• Alistair's Intoxication
• Irradiate

Also starts with Leather Armour, 1-Handed Weapon choice and a /Polymorph (9)

[Hirsch I]

hum... any reason in particular?

[bcadren]

hum... any reason in particular?

I started writing a 'new reaver' which was conjurations that debuff as well as damage, making them pair well with melee. But there were too few of those and it spread out over too many spellschools (Dazzling Spray, Mephritic Cloud, Irradiate); circled around and thought this was interesting. IDEA I was going for was start that had Irradiate as its capstone; because it's a powerful, but risky spell that would be very interesting to have early; but isn't as interesting given it's rarity. Also tried to think about a book that would get good use from both skills for a bit, IDK.

[Berder]

I like this idea because

• Petrify
• Alistair's Intoxication
• Irradiate

are all spells that don't see much use by transmuters. Because why bother with them when you can just cast blade hands?

But I wonder if it would be strong enough. The spells are not powerful enough to carry the game on their own, therefore the character would have to primarily train melee from the start. And by the time the character is ready to start training spells, I'm not sure that petrify/alistair's intoxication/irradate would be the best things to go for. He'll probably have a spellbook with better stuff in it for a melee character (e.g. regeneration, rmsl, swiftness) by that time. So mostly the starting spellbook would just be used for stoneskin.

So I like the idea, but also I don't like the idea because it would end up being yet another stupid melee class (YASMC) with approximately the same gameplay and skilling as all the other melee classes, with petrify/alistair/irradiate still being ignored.

[tasonir]

I could see petrify as well as stoneskin being used, but I think berder's right in that alistair's and irradiate aren't really going to be the first spells a primarily melee character is going to want. Beastly appendage functions as normal with weapon users, I assume? It'd be useful for the first few floors as usual then, I suppose. Having a book where you use 3 out of 5 spells is probably about average for most starting spellbooks - there are few where I memorize all of them.

[Sprucery]

I like the spell list, because with this start I would use AI, which I otherwise have hardly ever used. (I might have cast it something like 10 years ago.)

[Sharkman1231]

I think this idea is pretty cool. However, it'd be the only starting book with a level 6 spell, which I don't think is a good idea. Give it ignite poison instead of irradiate?

[Arrhythmia]

I think this idea is pretty cool. However, it'd be the only starting book with a level 6 spell, which I don't think is a good idea. Give it ignite poison instead of irradiate?

except, it wouldn't? also, ignite pois would be a terrible spell to start with if you don't have a way of, you know, poisoning

[Greyr]

Whats the lv6 spell then? Pretty sure Invisibility was the only lv6 starting spell since the old conjurer book.

[Sharkman1231]

I think this idea is pretty cool. However, it'd be the only starting book with a level 6 spell, which I don't think is a good idea. Give it ignite poison instead of irradiate?

except, it wouldn't? also, ignite pois would be a terrible spell to start with if you don't have a way of, you know, poisoning

I didn't know how the reworked ignite poison works. So I was mixing it up w/ the old version.

[duvessa]

Non-UC Transmutation Start is a great idea! Almost as good as my Non-Damaging Conjuration Start and Non-Ranged Throwing Start ideas.

[nago]

Should we call this background Stalker?

[Sandman25]

Non-UC Transmutation Start is a great idea! Almost as good as my Non-Damaging Conjuration Start and Non-Ranged Throwing Start ideas.

Why haven't you shared those ideas?
The former could have both Mephitic Cloud and Dazzling Spray and the latter could have some special needles which work for adjacent monsters only (needle of enslavement? needle of agony?).

[dowan]

Non-UC Transmutation Start is a great idea! Almost as good as my Non-Damaging Conjuration Start and Non-Ranged Throwing Start ideas.

Fun facts: The conjurations skill governs damage done by conjurations spells. The throwing skill governs damage done by throwing weapons. The unarmed skill does not govern transmutation spell damage, only unarmed attacks made when under the effects a subset of transmutation skills.

It's kind of like how there is a charms spell called sure blade, which improves short blade accuracy greatly, and yet the skald background is able to start with a weapon other than a shortblade. It's almost like you don't need to be able to use every single spell from a school to be able to get use out of that school.

[archaeo]

Non-UC Transmutation Start is a great idea! Almost as good as my Non-Damaging Conjuration Start and Non-Ranged Throwing Start ideas.

Why haven't you shared those ideas?.

Sometimes, I like to pretend that the Tavern is just a performance art collective where everyone is trying to reach some kind of peak irony.

[Sandman25]

Sometimes, I like to pretend that the Tavern is just a performance art collective where everyone is trying to reach some kind of peak irony.

"Fight fire with fire"

[Sprucery]

"Fight fire with fire"

"the ending is near"

[CanOfWorms]

It's kind of like how there is a charms spell called sure blade

http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=co ... dec81fce34

[dowan]

Well.... damn it...

Pretend I used an example that applies to the most current version of crawl...

[bcadren]

I like the spell list, because with this start I would use AI, which I otherwise have hardly ever used. (I might have cast it something like 10 years ago.)

If you have access to it early; I recommend using it with a "Clarity to clear elf. It's one of the few ways to make elf pretty easy that you can get online early. Confusing half of everything (on intelligent enemy branches) is worthwhile to everyone; but this spell is outshined by ones that could kill in a few turns in later game. Elf is the only place where you can -only- use Alistair's (and not Mass Confusion or Discord to similar effect) because Elves have such high MR; but you can get good utility out of it most places (Orc, Elf, Shoals [Merfolk, Satyrs], Vaults [Vault Guards, Yaktaurs], Depths [Trolls, Spriggans, Ogres], Zot [Draconians], Pandemonium [Demonspawn], Gehenna [Salamanders, Hell Knights]).

[Elystan]

I'd play a background that started with the book of alchemy.

[dowan]

The problem I've had when using Alistair's intoxication is that the effect is pretty short. I suppose it's like mass confusion in that way. Of course, the problem could be that I've always casted it with low spellpower, but it's been quite underwhelming in my experience.

[nago]

I've recently tried for fun at high power and its average duration seemed to me very short (like 3-5 turns). Very bad for a multi school spell which usually is casted at low power and has so many strange requisites

[dowan]

It's crappy mass confusion that also confuses you and just for the hell of it drains your int sometimes. If it was level 2 transmutations it might be worth considering.

[Rast]

Sometimes, I like to pretend that the Tavern is just a performance art collective where everyone is trying to reach some kind of peak irony.

I thanked you ironically.

[Hirsch I]

Alistair's intoxication has a fucking great flavor, though. seriously: converting brain into alcohol, used in wizard parties as an icebreaker, that's fucking genius.

[Arrhythmia]

Alistair's intoxication has a fucking great flavor, though. seriously: converting brain into alcohol, used in wizard parties as an icebreaker, that's fucking genius.

remove AI, rename mass confuse AI, boom, problem solved

[Lasty]

Alistair's intoxication has a fucking great flavor, though. seriously: converting brain into alcohol, used in wizard parties as an icebreaker, that's fucking genius.

I'd learn the Transmutation/Fire version that coverts brains directly into fire clouds.

[Pollen_Golem]

Petrify and stoneskin are in the starting Earth Elementalist book, and repeating these nifty spells across different backgrounds doesn't sound so great as it takes some bite out of EE. Quite a few great earth spells are also transmutation spells, so earth can be used as a gateway to transmutations.

How about keeping a single transmuter background, but changing some starter book spells?

Remove: Blade Hands.
Put in: Irradiate, Ignite Poison, Alistair's Intoxication.

This way, Tm will have access to a few interesting spells that have nothing to do with forms, and which are not found in other starter books.
It also won't be unique among books in having a really awesome level-5 spell that can carry you through the game (blade hands).
Even with 7 spells, Book of Changes would not be too big, because that's how many spells are in Book of Minor Magic.
There will also be a reason to let ghouls begin as transmuters.

e: Transmuters should get to pick a weapon at char-gen, like Warpers and Skalds. Understandably, unarmed will remain the most popular choice.

[pickled_heretic]

Non-UC Transmutation Start is a great idea! Almost as good as my Non-Damaging Conjuration Start and Non-Ranged Throwing Start ideas.

Why haven't you shared those ideas?.

Sometimes, I like to pretend that the Tavern is just a performance art collective where everyone is trying to reach some kind of peak irony.

Who said anything about pretending?

[Rast]

I like to start transmuters and ignore all their spells except summon snakes.

[duvessa]

I like to start transmuters and ignore all their spells except the ones that aren't summon snakes. god i hate summons

[Rast]

I like to start tavern threads and ignore all the posts that aren't by non-duvessas.

[duvessa]

i like to do that too

[pickled_heretic]

I liked sticks to snakes back when you could turn giant clubs into anacondas and black mambas. It's a pretty boring spell now though.

[wheals]

I like to start tavern threads and ignore all the posts that aren't by non-duvessas.

this, but unironically