Why double swords and triple swords?


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Post Saturday, 16th May 2015, 17:05

Why double swords and triple swords?

What was the problem with bastard swords and claymores that desperately needed to be solved by these odd contrivances?

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Post Saturday, 16th May 2015, 17:09

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Double & triple swords predate bastard swords/claymores.

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Post Saturday, 16th May 2015, 17:11

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

And there were good reasons for the rename, or so I thought. It felt like some progress was undone for unclear reasons.

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Post Saturday, 16th May 2015, 17:19

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

The rename was because of tedious awful sword realism, which is tedious and awful so it was undone!

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Post Saturday, 16th May 2015, 23:07

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Linley Henzell liked the stupid B movie 'sword and the sorcerer'.

A hero tried to remove the subpar joke names for ultimate items for the game but 'tradition' obsessed developers reverted it.

[I hate the names Double and Triple Sword too; they don't actually have any relation to the sword's usage at all, it's not like it actually hits 2 or 3 times, as the name implies. Actual sword names make loads more sense and seem more dignified regardless of what they are.
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Post Saturday, 16th May 2015, 23:17

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Double/triple swords are an attempt at humour, like eveningstars, death cobs, curse toes or Beogh water walking. There's nothing deep to it, but realise that it's much harder to add humour in a game with several developers than to remove it. Because humour is irrelevant and highly subjective, there will always be complaints. Myself, I like triple swords (didn't know about the B movie but more power to B and C movies anyway!).
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Post Saturday, 16th May 2015, 23:35

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Triple Swords are seriously a film reference that very few people get.

I don't really think humor works in crawl, because crawl has no writing at all. (I mean there's no plotline and very little flavour text to convey humour). It also goes against the tone pretty strongly and would/could only be enjoyed once, thus doesn't mesh well with the Roguelike genre in general.
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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 00:12

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

bcadren wrote:It also goes against the tone pretty strongly

If crawl has a "tone," it's a lot closer to triple swords and killer klowns than any kind of serious grimdark business.

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 00:18

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

archaeo wrote:
bcadren wrote:It also goes against the tone pretty strongly

If crawl has a "tone," it's a lot closer to triple swords and killer klowns than any kind of serious grimdark business.
It's really neither. It's a logistical puzzle with little wont of flavour. Flavour nonsense is nonsense. Something that concisely conveys the idea of the device is superior to a joke name.
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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 04:12

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

bcadren wrote:Triple Swords are seriously a film reference that very few people get.

I don't really think humor works in crawl, because crawl has no writing at all. (I mean there's no plotline and very little flavour text to convey humour). It also goes against the tone pretty strongly and would/could only be enjoyed once, thus doesn't mesh well with the Roguelike genre in general.


That clip is so awesome.

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 05:48

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

My objections:

1. They're extremely unintuitive. A double sword sounds like it should be two handed - basically what you would expect Gyre and Gimble's weapon type to be - they're literally a pair of swords. A triple sword sounds like it's some kind of 3-handed formicid weapon. But, instead, a double sword is wielded in one hand. Ok, so multiple blades are ok for one hand? No. A triple sword must be wielded with 2 hands, because reasons.

2. They're a weapon base type, and as such they're part of the basic nomenclature of Crawl, along with skill names and item types. But no other base item type has this level of silliness. This is aesthetically displeasing because they stick out horribly. I mean if clubs became "baseball bats" and tridents became "pitchforks" and glaives became "death hoes" and the spellcasting skill was called "magic mojo" then I would not be surprised by a sword with a nonsensical number of blades because I would think of crawl as a parody game set in a exaggerated nonsense universe. But it's really not. Even the more silly monsters like Death Cobs and Curse Toes don't stretch that far and aren't as jarring in the way they disrupt the user's conceptual headspace.

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 06:23

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

MarvinPA wrote:The rename was because of tedious awful sword realism, which is tedious and awful so it was undone!
take it easy

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 07:15

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Arrhythmia wrote:
MarvinPA wrote:The rename was because of tedious awful sword realism, which is tedious and awful so it was undone!
Tedious: "too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous."

Realism: "the quality or fact of representing a person, thing, or situation accurately or in a way that is true to life."

So; 'claymore' is more tiresome than 'Triple Sword'? It's certainly a much longer phrase isn't it? As for realism; no, absolutely nothing about crawl melee is realistic; don't even try to argue it. It's as realistic as Chess.

Going off the Philosophy document "Clarity" is a game design goal of crawl. Which phrase conveys the meaning of the attached object more clearly 'Triple Sword' or 'Claymore'? Well, claymore is actually a word that refers to a real thing; triple sword is a joke reference and the 'triple' part is complete nonsense implying functionality that is not there.

If you want to claim ANYTHING about long blades is tedious; it's the fact that there are 6! varieties of one-handed long-blade. You really don't need half that many.
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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 07:47

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

If I didn't know the stats, I would easily guess that a double sword is probably better than a normal sword, and that a triple sword does more damage than a double sword, but can't say the same about a bunch of real sword names where the damage they do (e.g, great sword vs. claymore or scimitar vs. long sword) is essentially arbitrary. I think double/triple sword is more clear. I also think that this isn't particularly important because basically any complaint about clarity or intuitiveness can be solved by looking at the sword's description exactly once during your crawl career, which is what you should do when you find an item for the first time anyway.

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 07:59

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

bcadren wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:
MarvinPA wrote:The rename was because of tedious awful sword realism, which is tedious and awful so it was undone!
Tedious: "too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous."

Realism: "the quality or fact of representing a person, thing, or situation accurately or in a way that is true to life."

So; 'claymore' is more tiresome than 'Triple Sword'? It's certainly a much longer phrase isn't it? As for realism; no, absolutely nothing about crawl melee is realistic; don't even try to argue it. It's as realistic as Chess.

Going off the Philosophy document "Clarity" is a game design goal of crawl. Which phrase conveys the meaning of the attached object more clearly 'Triple Sword' or 'Claymore'? Well, claymore is actually a word that refers to a real thing; triple sword is a joke reference and the 'triple' part is complete nonsense implying functionality that is not there.

If you want to claim ANYTHING about long blades is tedious; it's the fact that there are 6! varieties of one-handed long-blade. You really don't need half that many.


no, see, you're missing the point, this is the tedious awful sword realism
take it easy

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 12:50

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

So which one is bigger IRL, claymore or a great sword?

Did you know that "long swords" is a name usually reserved for two-handed swords?

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 15:18

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

There is really no point in switching these names back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

Everyone has some preference, the current terminology is probably only the favourite choice of a minority, but that'd be true for any other set of names. So best to move on, there is not really much to discuss here. (One could say that Double/Triple Sword at least makes it clear that we're talking swords, but on the other hand, it's not clear whether these are short or long blades, and we've lost the opportunity to teach players the beautiful word Claymore. Realism, humour, it's really a wash at this point. If you complain too much about it, we will call them Axe A, Axe B, Axe C etc. :))

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 15:53

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

dpeg wrote:If you complain too much about it, we will call them Axe A, Axe B, Axe C etc. :))


I vote for Axe 1-7, Axe 1-13, Axe 2-15, Axe 2-18. I still confuse war axe, broad axe and battleaxe sometimes.

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 15:59

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

"shit axe", "bad axe", "okay axe", "good axe" and "huge axe"

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 16:01

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

halberd, spetum, glaive, fauchard, guisarme, glaive-guisarme, lucern hammer

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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 16:22

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

You may laugh, but in the only game I know that has a ridiculous variety of types of weapons with obscure names (angband), they at least show the damage formula for the weapon on the description line in inventory.
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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 18:47

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

mps wrote:You may laugh, but in the only game I know that has a ridiculous variety of types of weapons with obscure names (angband), they at least show the damage formula for the weapon on the description line in inventory.


Diablo 2 has some weird ones. What kind of item do you think a "troll's nest" is?
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Post Sunday, 17th May 2015, 19:40

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

xentronium wrote:
mps wrote:You may laugh, but in the only game I know that has a ridiculous variety of types of weapons with obscure names (angband), they at least show the damage formula for the weapon on the description line in inventory.


Diablo 2 has some weird ones. What kind of item do you think a "troll's nest" is?

I just imagine a cage full of rabid angry trolls on the end of a stick that you hit people with, and the trolls claw/bite the crap out of whomever you smack with it, I guess itd use the mace skill? ;)
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Post Monday, 18th May 2015, 01:22

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

my only complaint about double and triple swords is that they look silly, and for some goddamn reason I can't stand the tought of my characters looking silly. I mean, I ctrlqyes when my Ds develops antennae.
my posts are to be read in a mildly playful tone, with a deep, sexy voice.

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Post Monday, 18th May 2015, 16:33

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Sar wrote:"shit axe", "bad axe", "okay axe", "good axe" and "huge axe"


Well, if that's the plan, I vote for the unrandarts Unnatural Axe, Horrifying Axe, and Forbidden Axe.

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Post Monday, 18th May 2015, 16:35

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

duvessa wrote:halberd, spetum, glaive, fauchard, guisarme, glaive-guisarme, lucern hammer


...glaive-guisarme-voulge, guisarme-voulge-glaive, glaive-glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaive...

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 00:16

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Claymost.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 00:54

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

dpeg wrote:Double/triple swords are an attempt at humour, like eveningstars, death cobs, curse toes or Beogh water walking.


Until just now, I never even thought about that fact that there is no real-world eveningstar. From the name, it's obviously like a morningstar, only more badass.

Death cob sounds OK until you look at the tile or description and realize it's talking about a freaking cob of corn.

"Curse toe" is just dumb as hell and should be changed to "cursed hand" or whatever.

Beogh water walking isn't silly. Wikipedia: "There are reports of miraculous acts of walking on water in several religions, such as in Buddhist texts, some Hindu stories, the Huang-Po story, the stories of Orion, the Aeneid and some Native American myths, in addition to the accounts of Jesus walking on water in the New Testament. Islamic belief also includes accounts of Jesus walking on water."

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 03:08

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

I personally still get a chuckle to this day every time I fight a curse toe and it summons fungus against me. I'm not even sure when I first realized the connection, but it was a wonderful moment. I wasn't really thinking along realism lines, it was probably when someone else pointed it out on the tavern.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 03:10

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Beogh water walking is terrible flavor as currently implemented. It should more properly be implemented as walking on a bridge constructed from the corpses of infidels.

Also it is almost entirely useless, but that's another matter.
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 03:12

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

If you are offended by something I've posted, just PM me. It probably wasn't intentional.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 03:12

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

KoboldLord wrote:Beogh...is almost entirely useless, but that's another matter.
FTFY
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 06:24

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

bcadren wrote:
KoboldLord wrote:Beogh...is almost entirely useless, but that's another matter.
FTFY


Carried me to my first 2 runes, so atleast he's useful for people who suck at the game.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 08:10

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

KoboldLord wrote:Beogh water walking is terrible flavor as currently implemented. It should more properly be implemented as walking on a bridge constructed from the corpses of infidels.

Also it is almost entirely useless, but that's another matter.
It was my idea, so I am mortally offended now. Moreover, I don't understand "terrible flavour" -- didn't you read your Bible? As Rast explains, there are actually more sources, but I was making a joking reference to the Bible. The mechanics may be terrible, i.e. "almost entirely useless", but we were looking for something that explains clearly that you're now the orcish messiah. We toyed with giving a crown, but then went with water walking instead.

Fun fact: the Bible has a number of (unknown) authors, most scholars seem to agree on four authors, and there are aspects of the Christian god in Beogh, Elyvilon, Zin and the Shining One.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 10:06

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

dpeg wrote:It was my idea, so I am mortally offended now. Moreover, I don't understand "terrible flavour" -- didn't you read your Bible? As Rast explains, there are actually more sources, but I was making a joking reference to the Bible. The mechanics may be terrible, i.e. "almost entirely useless", but we were looking for something that explains clearly that you're now the orcish messiah. We toyed with giving a crown, but then went with water walking instead.

Fun fact: the Bible has a number of (unknown) authors, most scholars seem to agree on four authors, and there are aspects of the Christian god in Beogh, Elyvilon, Zin and the Shining One.


I actually can't tell if you're being serious or not when you claim to be offended.

Using the Bible as a source doesn't carry all that much weight. The Bible contains depictions of a mishmash of thousands of random superpowers, almost all of which follow no discernible theme. Yes, a couple characters did walk on water that one time. Other times, they summoned bears or animated plants or transformed enemies into inanimate objects. Much of Crawl's historical spell list is cribbed from D&D, which cribbed some of those concepts, particularly on the cleric list, from the Bible.

Even if we suppose that walking on water is a big thing in the Bible and not just something that happened on one single page of a massive doorstopper of a tome, it doesn't really say 'orc'. Humans living on the Mediterranean Sea would have a story about their god showing mastery over those waters, because fishing and trade is an important part of their life. Orcs that live in a a gold mine in the dungeons above Zot would have stories that are important to them, not stories that are important to real-life humans.

Of course, this is all icky simulationism and should be treated with the precise level of importance assigned to all cases of simulationism.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 10:11

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

KoboldLord: I was joking, I am not offended. It's completely okay if you don't like water walking, but I have seen people actually laugh when getting the final ability (not just "lo" but laughing). So at least some people get the joke :) The point about the Bible reference is that it's very well known (so in fact you *don't* have to know the Bible and still will have propably heard about it). And we're talking about a god of orcs, and orcs looking for their messiah. It's not the pinnacle of jokes, but I thought it was a fun way to combine flavour and humour through a gameplay mechanic. (And I only mentioned this because it is an example for humour in the game.)

Final note: it's a god of orcs, but a game played by humans. So I make a joke that the humans can get.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 15:51

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

What would a roguelike designed to be played by orcs look like, I wonder.
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 16:20

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Siegurt wrote:What would a roguelike designed to be played by orcs look like, I wonder.


There would only be one god, for starters.

E: And only one playable race.
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 16:51

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

dpeg wrote:there are aspects of the Christian god in Beogh, Elyvilon, Zin and the Shining One.
you do realize that to everyone except you, it looks like something from here, right?

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 17:06

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

dpeg wrote: Fun fact: the Bible has a number of (unknown) authors, most scholars seem to agree on four authors, and there are aspects of the Christian god in Beogh, Elyvilon, Zin and the Shining One.


I'm not sure where you're getting that number. The NT has 4 different gospels traditionally attributed to different authors, plus letters attributed to Paul, James, and John. Wikipedia suggests scholars think there are 5 different authors of the Torah part of the OT alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorshi ... ible#Torah

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 17:06

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

duvessa: I don't know. Myself, I am a died-in-the-wool atheist, if you are referring to that. (I sometimes wonder if a proper believer could imply some blasphemy in my god designs, but I never had a chance to ask: everyone I know who cares about Crawl is not fervently religious enough to be bothered by any of the gods.)

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 17:06

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?


Memories, light the corners of my mind
Misty water color memories of the way we were


Also, most of this thread defines bikeshedding really well ;)

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 17:50

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

dpeg wrote:duvessa: I don't know. Myself, I am a died-in-the-wool atheist, if you are referring to that. (I sometimes wonder if a proper believer could imply some blasphemy in my god designs, but I never had a chance to ask: everyone I know who cares about Crawl is not fervently religious enough to be bothered by any of the gods.)
I am saying that "haha, religion!" is dead horse shallow parody at best, and resembles the stuff the 14 year olds on that site write

I'm also an atheist, not sure how this is relevant
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 17:56

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

duvessa wrote:I am saying that "haha, religion!" is dead horse shallow parody at best, and resembles the stuff the 14 year olds on that site write

It feels worth noting that, beyond the occasional dev commentary like dpeg's, it's hard for me to see the "parody" in game, at least insofar as even Beogh feels like any other, uh, racist bloodthirsty god from the fantasy canon. One could probably write a very turgid dissertation on how fantasy literature's approach to religion blah blah I don't have the energy to finish this sentence.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 18:23

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

duvessa: I have no clue what you mean or what you want. I am probably best off taking your 14-year old comment (that's almost the age of my son, thank you very much) as a random snide.

I take god flavour very serious, and I am sad whenever gods lose their flavour. I have tried to explain why Beogh followers can walk over water, some of you didn't get it, not a big deal, completely unrelated to triple swords.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 18:28

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

it's trendy to make fun of vocal atheists on the Internet nowadays

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 18:45

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Man, I was making fun of vocal atheists on the internet ten years ago. You trendy twitter people suck.
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 18:49

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

But did you post pictures of unattractive people wearing hats when you did that?

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 18:51

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

Sar wrote:it's trendy to make fun of vocal atheists on the Internet nowadays
i consider myself a p. vocal atheist, but, fuck, have you ever looked at that subreddit

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 18:56

Re: Why double swords and triple swords?

I've only seen a couple of screencaps.

Regardless, I don't think dpeg's Orc Jesus/water walking joke is awful. Though I kind of wish Beogh gave you an ability to resurrect dead orcs, but I guess that'd be too useful to be funny.
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