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Ziggurat Zagger
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If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Cocytus Succeeder
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Dungeon Master
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Cocytus Succeeder
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dpeg wrote:If the problem is that monsters are too stupid, we can improve their AI. Some examples: waking a pack monster could have a chance (perhaps depending on your stealth) to wake the rest. Awake pack monsters could know of each others positions (no matter where they are on the map), and if one pack member sees you, the others know your position as well. This way, you could still stab a pack one by one, but it would be much less safe to lure monsters away one by one.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Cocytus Succeeder
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Berder wrote:If you think the game is too easy just play harder characters. They exist. The game has difficulty settings and they are the characters. From granny mode (MiBe) to nightmare mode (DEFi).
Tartarus Sorceror
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bel wrote:I have already explained in the other thread that "harder" characters often just require more patience, instead of anything really "hard".
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Ziggurat Zagger
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dpeg wrote:So I think that negative slaying, to take one proposal, is not a good idea. Realise that any change, especially when you modify the core game so radically, will have a lot of follow-up consequences to everyday gameplay -- in this case, it could easily lead to players shunning melee and stressing ranged combat much more: the basic idea of melee (in all games I am aware of) is that it deals more damage than other forms of combat, at the expense of close range. If you take that away by negative slaying, well, you see what happens.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Berder wrote:They are really harder.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Sandman25 wrote:They are harder but not hard. (Speaking as winner of DEBe of Trog with 15 runes. DEFi is harder than DEBe early but much easier later)
Ziggurat Zagger
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Berder wrote:They're very hard, as in the average expert would have a below 50% win rate. Congrats on winning a DEBe.
Abyss Ambulator
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I will try Sil and Brogue again more some day I guess, it should not be too hard to get used to ascii.
Ziggurat Zagger
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tabstorm wrote:I will try Sil and Brogue again more some day I guess, it should not be too hard to get used to ascii.
I eagerly await your reaction to move-s-move-s-move-s in Brogue.
Abyss Ambulator
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Sandman25 wrote:tabstorm wrote:I will try Sil and Brogue again more some day I guess, it should not be too hard to get used to ascii.
I eagerly await your reaction to move-s-move-s-move-s in Brogue.
Yes, I hate it. I read about brogue yesterday again and recalled why I stopped playing it.
Abyss Ambulator
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dpeg wrote:If the problem is that monsters are too stupid, we can improve their AI. Some examples: waking a pack monster could have a chance (perhaps depending on your stealth) to wake the rest. Awake pack monsters could know of each others positions (no matter where they are on the map), and if one pack member sees you, the others know your position as well. This way, you could still stab a pack one by one, but it would be much less safe to lure monsters away one by one.
If the problem is that monsters blindly follow the player, we can have them stop doing that, and instead go back to an assembly point (staircases sound like a good spot).
In other words, I think that luring should be addressed through monster behaviour, not through player punishment: if an entropy weaver reduces your abilites to fight, then that happens in a battle, and you can do something about it. The game shouldn't say "you cannot fight anymore" because you fled. Another way to see this: during the course of the game, a player will have a good feeling about the combat abilities of the character, and about the threat level of the currently relevant enemies. A luring nerf should not change either of these two, if it can be helped. It is better to keep the character's and the monster's abilities as they are, and instead put monsters where they hurt, or avoid them going where they are hurt.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Example: you are fighting a single goblin. You let it come adjacent to you, you attack it (and miss), it hits you, you retreat and wait your HP to be back to 100%, only then you try to attack it again. If you miss again and the goblin hits you again, you retreat and wait for HP regen again.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Rast wrote:I've seen top players using luring to bring lone monsters far back into explored territory, just so the noise from the fight doesn't attract anyone else.
Cocytus Succeeder
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Sandman25 wrote:I forgot to mention pillar dancing which is somewhat related to luring/retreating and is annoying as well. From another thread:Example: you are fighting a single goblin. You let it come adjacent to you, you attack it (and miss), it hits you, you retreat and wait your HP to be back to 100%, only then you try to attack it again. If you miss again and the goblin hits you again, you retreat and wait for HP regen again.
This can be fixed by non-regenerating while moving with monsters in LoS (so you will still be regenerating when you are fighting/casting/evoking etc.). Probably regeneration should not resume immediately after losing the monsters from LoS, there can be a decent delay (10 turns or so), otherwise player would just use a larger pillar which allows to lose the monster from LoS sometimes. If you stop moving, regeneration is resumed immediately.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Berder wrote:You see this most in the early dungeon which is fun and exciting and should not change. Pillar dancing too is only a thing in the early dungeon. There are no gameplay issues in the early dungeon; it's the most interesting and dangerous part of the game. If you could simply tab through it or were forced to only play characters strong enough to tab through it, it would be boring and stupid.
Ziggurat Zagger
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bel wrote:Thread is going in all sorts of directions, which is perhaps inevitable. Anyway, this is not feasible. It sometimes happens in the early dungeon that a hobgoblin gets a couple of lucky rolls and you go down to a few HP. In those situations, there is really nothing you can do, bar pillar dancing. You don't have any consumables, you can't escape etc.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Sandman25 wrote:Fun and exciting??? When you use all these tactics it is almost impossible to die on D1. "Almost" because sometimes you start with no pillar in LoS and have no room to run away from first monster you meet.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Berder wrote:Sandman25 wrote:Fun and exciting??? When you use all these tactics it is almost impossible to die on D1. "Almost" because sometimes you start with no pillar in LoS and have no room to run away from first monster you meet.
No - it is not almost impossible to die on D:1. D:1 is the most dangerous level in the game. More players and more tenpercenters die there than anywhere else. About 20% of tenpercenter games end on D:1.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Sandman25 wrote:Berder wrote:Sandman25 wrote:Fun and exciting??? When you use all these tactics it is almost impossible to die on D1. "Almost" because sometimes you start with no pillar in LoS and have no room to run away from first monster you meet.
No - it is not almost impossible to die on D:1. D:1 is the most dangerous level in the game. More players and more tenpercenters die there than anywhere else. About 20% of tenpercenter games end on D:1.
Well, I have nothing to say except this is my experience. Maybe tenpercenters don't play as optimal as I do.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Berder wrote:What account do you play on?
About 20-30% of elliptic's losses are on d1.
Tomb Titivator
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Sandman25 wrote:Berder wrote:Sandman25 wrote:Fun and exciting??? When you use all these tactics it is almost impossible to die on D1. "Almost" because sometimes you start with no pillar in LoS and have no room to run away from first monster you meet.
No - it is not almost impossible to die on D:1. D:1 is the most dangerous level in the game. More players and more tenpercenters die there than anywhere else. About 20% of tenpercenter games end on D:1.
Well, I have nothing to say except this is my experience. Maybe tenpercenters don't play as optimal as I do.
Ziggurat Zagger
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mps wrote:Optimal Life.
Pandemonium Purger
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Sandman25 wrote:Edit. By the way I've seen many new players killed by bad strategy, like no Fighting at all or training Axes to 25 for hand axe and having too low defenses because of that. Also entering Elf right after Orc.
PleasingFungus wrote:if anyone uses the term 'no-brainer' again I am going to throw up
Ziggurat Zagger
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Pollen_Golem wrote:Or that training fighting isn't always sub-optimal if you're sticking to a particular weapon group?
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Sandman25 wrote:Well, Sp does not need luring, it can fight a group of crocodiles/yaks as long as it is safe and then it just runs away. I am sure we can create some workarounds for new players. Wait until you will be tired of luring, when 50+% your actions will be pressing movement keys (assuming you use autoexplore here).
Pandemonium Purger
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Sandman25 wrote:Pollen_Golem wrote:Or that training fighting isn't always sub-optimal if you're sticking to a particular weapon group?
What do you mean?
Ziggurat Zagger
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Sar wrote:The same argument can be made for Swamp/Shoals/Spider/Snake/Slime
Sar wrote: (you typically find all of those before Orc).
Ziggurat Zagger
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Pandemonium Purger
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Pandemonium Purger
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Sandman25 wrote:5) Spells. You should not be able to have regeneration, repel missiles or statue form always active. It is boring, time consuming and repetitive again. Player should make decisions - do I want to have Repel Missiles vs that Draconian pack on Zot 5 or should I keep it inactive in order to activate it later vs Ancient Lich if I meet it? I suggest to make all those spells incur Draining or have cooldown before being able to activate it again (like Exh does for berserk). This solves old problem with "recast RMsl while autoexploring" from 0.12 without introducing "I always learn RMsl and have it active" problems of 0.16.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Pollen_Golem wrote:I'm curious but I don't quite know what to search for. Somewhat relevant are the last four posts of this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=312&p=3367&hilit=stamina#p3367
which led me to the following page which mentions a fatigue mechanic near the bottom:
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... :defense&s[]=fatigue
What I've found, including this entire thread, introduce something beyond MP - a new meter of some kind - whereas the piece I linked to (2 posts above) only integrates existing meters in a new way.
Anyway, previously-discussed suggestions and their problems are also relevant to the first 100+ posts in this thread, so why not have mentioned this beforehand?
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