#0009613

[golthoon]

IF YOU WEREN'T INVOLVED AND DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON THEN IT'S OKAY IF YOU DON'T POST! I'm only posting this here because wheals is right, it doesn't belong on the bug tracker! The cliffsnotes version is that everybody who did THIS

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11:42:36 <Cheibriados> Xom instakill via potion of poison within first 120 turns of game https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9613 by golthoon
11:56:24 <kvaak> aww, babby's first CK
11:56:26 <kvaak> cute

is just generally an asshole but furthermore, specific to this case, was wrong!

It's more important to cover up the fact that there's an ingrained culture of smarmy bullying in this playerbase than it is to do something to correct it? <-- I wrote that before I checked this forum, and WOW, turns out this is a Current Events issue!

Here it is I was completely right about something, and that didn't stop several other users from being dicks to me over it. If this was an isolated incident, then whatever, but this is NOT the first time I've had a negative interaction with this game's community:

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20:15:05 <wheals> PleasingFungus, what happened in #8613
20:15:19 <PleasingFungus> wheals: is that lightning scales
20:15:22 <wheals> yes
20:15:26 <wheals> ??devteam[6
20:15:26 <Sequell> devteam[6/15]: <MarvinPA> sadly that bug is literally impossible to fix <MarvinPA> by which i mean i tried like once and then gave up
20:15:31 <wheals> mmm
20:15:37 <PleasingFungus> golthoon is super passive aggressive
20:15:41 <wheals> and weird
20:15:41 <PleasingFungus> you can see this in everything he posts
20:15:43 <PleasingFungus> yes
20:15:45 <PleasingFungus> imho ban him
20:15:53 <wheals> he's like xuaxua but --verbose mode
20:15:55 <tabstorm> whats a golthoon
20:16:00 <tabstorm> is that a new tavern poster
20:16:00 <PleasingFungus> tabstorm: mantis reporter
20:16:02 <tabstorm> o
20:16:13 <gammafunk> !bug 8613
20:16:13 <Sequell> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8613
20:16:25 <PleasingFungus> I deleted his comment & re-closed the ticket

I reported that bug because, like everybody who comes here to report a bug, I was interested in understanding how and why something didn't behave the way I expected. I read about mercenaries and companion monsters and most of what was written on the subject was way out of date; and, with the advent of Beogh, I thought it was pretty reasonable to assume that stuff dealing with friendly monster equipment selection was still in a pretty rudimentary state and that adding one of my experiences with it to the bug tracker would be helpful, both so that other users looking for information about it would see something more recent on the subject, and so that the developers could look at it and let me (and other readers) know what was up.

When you, wheals, suddenly and abruptly closed the ticket with "Mercenaries can no longer pick up items," I was super confused and honestly disappointed, because of all the neat things you can do in crawl, you cannot engage in glorious yakmurder with a robot pal who is just as mortal as you are. I had fun with my mercenary, it was something new that I thought was cool, and then a developer sort of just nonchalantly kills that fun with absolutely no explanation. what.

So I replied with "devteam[6] ?". One of your community's own FUNNY MEMES, from your repository of such, phrased as a question, with a question mark right there at the end, so as to ask for clarification as to why this was so. As that IRC log shows, PleasingFungus reacted to this like I had maliciously poked a sore spot and deleted it, and both of you then proceeded to talk shit about me before he suggested I be banned over it. How terrible for you and your delicate sensibilities! Clearly I didn't come here about a computer game, no, I came here to fuck with people who I literally didn't even know existed! I am a radical element that needs to be removed!!

But anyway that was a year ago, so nobody should even remember it. PleasingFungus wouldn't show up here to insult me minutes after I asked for an apology from a user who blamed the wiki's incompleteness for his patronizing tone (haha), right? That would mean he held a grudge against somebody who has an absolute minimum of interaction with this project, and gosh, why would anybody do that? Now in fairness, wheals deleted that message before I got a chance to read it, but as a gambling man I think it's a super safe bet that whatever was said was inflammatory!

So when I respond to this state of affairs with an attitude like "Well umm okay then, fuck you guys I guess?", I hope that even if you can't sympathize, you can at least understand my reasoning.

MY OBJECTIVES IN POSTING THIS:

• Maybe get that apology from whoever Hollow is? I don't care about kvaak, he said something in IRC once, as opposed to being persistently terrible to my face.
• Make strides toward putting an end to this Gestapo thing I just read about where material unflattering to the regime gets deleted and swept under the rug apparently?
• Smooth over ruffled feathers with wheals and also maybe guest-starring PleasingFungus? Like, me even being here is an olive branch to you guys, for your benefit, because ultimately I'm only interested in this computer game and not the wacky zany fun important? people behind it. I'm super sorry if that disappoints you! Even if I wanted to play chatty grabass with anybody over Dungeon Crawl, there's little incentive to do so when, by recent admission and by most entries on the learndb, most of what transpires here is just you people calling each other stupid. Even if you don't agree, that is me speaking from my perspective, and that is exactly how I feel. Imagine that there's a guy who's played this game on and off for a long long time, and when he encounters a new thing in a new patch or an old thing with unexpected new behaviors, he goes looking for information about it, and most of what he finds is bickering interspersed with in-jokes and outdated documentation. That person is me, and I react to this exactly the way you'd expect, so long as what you'd expect is something along the lines of "ugh."
• Not that this would ever change!

[Bloax]

Hey look, the pleasing fungus man is having a power trip from his +O peen.
Maybe we should ban him too.

And don't worry, everyone has a massive hate-boner for people who are actually passionate about wanting to make this a better game.

[Sar]

And don't worry, everyone has a massive hate-boner for people who are actually passionate about wanting to make this a better game.

I guess that's why everybody loves you, Bloax <3

[Bloax]

fun fact: this is the only place where i am disliked

[Sar]

Not too late to change that, just abandon your Chei-loving ways and all is forgiven!

[PleasingFungus]

Hey look, the pleasing fungus man is having a power trip from his +O peen.
Maybe we should ban him too.

And don't worry, everyone has a massive hate-boner for people who are actually passionate about wanting to make this a better game.

that chatlog is from nearly a year ago

I had completely forgotten about the incident in question, did not remember who golthoon was, and wouldn't have if it weren't for this thread.

fwiw I was on-side in 9613; that was a legit bug and there was no reason for Hollow to be so rude about it. I even agreed that it's a problem the community regularly faces. it's just, the comments of a mantis ticket aren't the right place to have that discussion.

that being said, your skin is apparently incredibly thin, and you need to chill way the heck out instead of obsessing over supposed wrongs done to you nearly a year ago.

[wheals]

i suspect i'll regret this, but this was the entire conversation:

Xom thinks this is hilarious!

Ahem. Try to reproduce this. You probably won't find Xom doing this for his
first action in the next 1000 attempts. As an highly experienced (and even
more highly traumatized) Chaos Knight veteran I assure you of this.
Furthermore, suddenly finding yourself environed by Xom summoned Tentacled
Monstrosities, Executioners and whatnot else while having <10% HP bears the
same chance of happening. Hell, even being casted into the Abyss by Xom is
something you will start to get used to one day, unlike what happened in
your case.
To put it a shorter way, this is not a bug, but just another page in Xom's
"My Lovely Playthings" book.

I'm no novice. I was playing this game long before Victory Dancing was
removed, and when there were no other game modes. I just don't want to be
part of this game's masturbatory community. Having a snarky learndb entry
and being a smug shithead on IRC are a huge part of this game's appeal, for
a lot of people, but I hate it and the middle school lunch table atmosphere
doesn't impress me.

One of few stipulations for Xom has always been that he should not be able
to instantly kill the player via damage. He can swarm you with things you
aren't prepared for, and will almost certainly kill you if you don't burn
an escape mechanism (or more), and he can violate practically any game rule
including damage and status immunities, but he should have checks in place
to prevent his effects from outright killing a player (and in many other
cases, such as his divine lightning strike, he does).

Rolling a "potion of strong poison" effect on a character whose maximum hit
points are below its minimum damage is not sporting, and I felt that this
should be addressed and that it is likely an oversight because, just as you
said, the likelihood of this happening under the circumstances is so low
that the programmers didn't think to put checks in place to prevent it.

I see your point now. Still, this isn't -a bug- , but rather something that
could see some re-balancing perhaps. For that, see this page
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... torm:start

It's a bug. As golthoon states, a non-bored Xom miscast (there's no bad Xom
potion effect) shouldn't be able to do lethal damage, and the damage being
spread out over several turns doesn't really matter.

Makes sense, now that I know this; scratch my previous words, then. I wish
wiki was more meticulous for non-obvious things like that.

I'm pleasantly surprised.

Hollow, the fact that you didn't know what was going on didn't stop you
from talking down to me, twice. You owe me an apology, but I understand
your behavior is just a symptom of a shitty culture; it would be one thing
if this was an isolated incident, but:

11:42:36 <Cheibriados> Xom instakill via potion of poison within first 120
turns of game https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9613 by golthoon
11:44:49 <thrig> print 9613 out and frame it for giggles?
11:56:24 <kvaak> aww, babby's first CK
11:56:26 <kvaak> cute

The wiki has nothing to do with this.

I really don't think the comments on a mantis ticket are the right place
for this discussion...

[wheals]

Double-posting to separate personal opinion from the facts...
I don't remember that past issue too well, but "devteam[6] ?" on its own came across rather more bitter than it appears you had meant it. I suppose you had not necessarily meant to reopen the ticket -- I don't know if that happens automatically -- and if I had realised that I wouldn't have thought you were angry. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

Still, a good bug report (I suggest reading http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html if you haven't for what it does require) doesn't require your life story , and Mantis is not the place for sharing how a bug makes you feel. As you correctly surmise, our reaction was a bit of humour that you don't like the style of. You might say that we should have told you what you were doing wrong in the ticket, but would that really have made you feel better?

[Arrhythmia]

please, i'm begging you all, stop taking video game chatrooms seriously

[duvessa]

it's about et

[mps]

oh man, this is classic. +1

[and into]

I don't even... CYC it is, I guess!

[Arrhythmia]

I don't even... CYC it is, I guess!

good job gestapo

[bcadren]

I remember hearing about this case where Xom used his monster swap ability to trap a player on an island close to the beginning of the game; where the player 5'd until he starved to death. It's just the nature of Xom to create edge-cases like this and it's very difficult to try to get ride of all of them. I think we are to assume that's just part of CK to get unavoidable deaths; very occasionally, because the RNG hates you and Xom lets you see the full wrath of the RNG.

[Greyr]

Funny meme?

[PleasingFungus]

I remember hearing about this case where Xom used his monster swap ability to trap a player on an island close to the beginning of the game; where the player 5'd until he starved to death. It's just the nature of Xom to create edge-cases like this and it's very difficult to try to get ride of all of them. I think we are to assume that's just part of CK to get unavoidable deaths; very occasionally, because the RNG hates you and Xom lets you see the full wrath of the RNG.

This one seems fairly fixable, though. (And really, so does the case you mentioned - there shouldn't be any islands like that in the first place...)

[dornbeast]

it's about et

It's about ethics in game development?
It's all about that bass?
It's all about the benjamins?

[Lacuenta]

it's about et

It's all about that bass?

I heared Duvessa likes to hit the clubs with Ilyib when Dowan's not around!

[golthoon]

fwiw I was on-side in 9613; that was a legit bug and there was no reason for Hollow to be so rude about it. I even agreed that it's a problem the community regularly faces. it's just, the comments of a mantis ticket aren't the right place to have that discussion.

that would be why i made a thread here instead

and explicitly prefaced it with "this didn't belong on the bug tracker"

i'm relieved that you agree that Hollow was being a cock. i'm doubly relieved that you agree that this is a persistent and deeply-ingrained problem with your community (see also: everybody who posted in this thread except you and wheals). but i'm experiencing an anti-climax because the next words out of your mouth weren't "and i believe it's time to do something about it," they were:

that being said, your skin is apparently incredibly thin, and you need to chill way the heck out instead of obsessing over supposed wrongs done to you nearly a year ago.

this is not in regard to a single, isolated issue, this is in regard to a consistent pattern of dopey bullshit with you people. how could you think this was over one incident when i specifically mention two that have a similar theme?

although i can see how, from your perspective, it definitely looks like i'm holding a grudge, so let me provide background. i've introduced a handful of pals to crawl, and it just so happened that two of them were in ventrilo giggling with me over my cat's hilarious xom-bug death, and there wasn't a dry eye in the house. when we saw later that some dickface was being condescending to me about it on the mantis tracker, one of those two guys said he remembered another incident a year ago in which a crawl player was acting demickey toward me over a bug report. i was like "wait what, i have no memory of this," and he said that you guys have public logs of ##crawl-dev and that if you query them with my username, you can see where some dude suggested banning me. i did not believe this, and yet it turned out to be true! and also that not merely ONE, but TWO ASSHOLES, AH AH AH!, were rudely dismissive of #9613!

so faulting me for being offended by a pattern of behavior you admit is unwarranted and problematic doesn't make me think i'm to blame for all this, it makes me think that you're either a lazy dick or an apathetic dick, dealer's choice. not that you've given me any indication that you're so inclined to tackle this problem, nor do i believe for a second that there is any likelihood that you would succeed, but still.

either way, i'm definitely pleased you agree that there's a problem, and that it sucks!

and now for wheals!

As you correctly surmise, our reaction was a bit of humour that you don't like the style of.

YOU CAN DISH IT OUT

I don't remember that past issue too well, but "devteam[6] ?" on its own came across rather more bitter than it appears you had meant it.

BUT YOU CAN'T TAKE IT

so much for thin skin! well now that we've both established a mutual dislike for misunderstandings, gosh i sure hope the next words are something to the effect of

Sorry for that misunderstanding.

I AM NOW A HAPPY CUSTOMER, THANK YOU

well, i'm not exactly sure which "our reaction" you're referring to, i assume the one where PleasingFungus was all "imho ban him," but whatever, an apology is leagues better than what i expected coming into this. boy howdy! i sure hope nothing happens to ruin thi

Still, a good bug report (I suggest reading http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html if you haven't for what it does require) doesn't require your life story , and Mantis is not the place for sharing how a bug makes you feel.

hey buddy come on, of the 11 bugs i've reported, only two of them have involved drama. considering i'm somebody who has the minimum amount of interaction with this project and whose priorities don't include you or your community in any capacity whatsoever, can you really ask for a better batting average? i mean it would be reasonable to fault me if this was a relatively bug-free game that wasn't in ongoing development, or if i was being overtly malicious to you guys, or if my bug reports were mostly just poorly-written and alarmist duplicates of other bug reports, but not otherwise.

You might say that we should have told you what you were doing wrong in the ticket, but would that really have made you feel better?

on the one hand, if i was allergic to talking with developers (or anybody else), i wouldn't have made a thread inviting exactly that.

but on the other hand, if what you had to say to me was that i sucked at bug reports, i would respond by pointing to my batting average as above, and that indignity would likely color the rest of our interactions. so i see your point. ultimately i don't feel like this topic is worth pursuing, though, since there's no historical precedent suggesting it should be a problem in the future, and especially now that i've had a mostly positive interaction with you guys.

[golthoon]

tangentially related: why was this thread moved to a different subforum? did i put it in the wrong place, or is this more GESTAPO ACTIVITY and "Crazy Yiuf's Corner" is a shame category for threads you don't like? because a lot of the recent threads in that Suggestions forum were dedicated exclusively to issues like this.

[Lacuenta]

Yo Golthoon, the devs are the real gods of crawl and they rarely listen to prayer whinig or anything really (much like oka :p), let it be it's not worth it.

[golthoon]

HEY GOLTON THE DEVS DON'T RESPOND TO PEOPLE, DESPITE THEM VERY OBVIOUSLY DOING EXACTLY THAT RIGHT NOW

IF YOU WEREN'T INVOLVED AND DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON THEN IT'S OKAY IF YOU DON'T POST!

[mps]

To clarify, I find it hilarious when people from the outside world interact with the irc and devteam sectors of the crawl world. There's just this disconnect there, you know.

So in other words, my previous comment was not sarcastic.

[Kate]

Hi, welcome to the Tavern where showing up, wildly throwing insults and abuse and repeatedly comparing people to the Gestapo in order to make a complaint isn't acceptable behaviour. Thanks, good thread all.

[and into]

I don't even... CYC it is, I guess!

good job gestapo

Trust me, if anything, moderating the Tavern makes me more like Nurse Ratched than Göring.