Let's Talk about Acquirement

[bcadren]

1. Why are WANDS their own category when Rods get rolled in with magic staves? Aren't rods more like Wands or Why not combine all three and call it 'evocables' (Rods, Wands, Magic Mirrors, etc.)? Those items seem more logically linked than Staves and Rods.
2. It says nowhere that you can acquire manuals. I didn't realize it was possible until someone advised me to use book acquirement as a Berserker. Why are spellbooks and manuals thrown together?
3. Are these two acquirements specifically not available to spellcasters as some kind of secret 'berserker bonus'? Does Trog really need that kind of bonus (rod and manual acquirement)? Trog's Hand kind of makes him one of the strongest gods in the game by itself.
4. Why can't you acquire consumables? 'I.E. Acquire consumable' category gives a stack of !Resistance or a Scroll of Silence, etc.
5. At very least can we relabel it to acquire skill manual and acquire rod when your spellcasting skills are low enough to get those instead of spellbooks and staves?

[jejorda2]

1) I could vote for moving rod from staves to misc with the other evokables. Staves should be in with weapons instead of their own category. You get should be likely to get a stave if your highest spell skill is higher than your highest weapon skill.
2/3) I could go for manuals being separate from spellbooks.
4)Potions & scrolls make sense as a category.
5) covered above.

[XuaXua]

You get should be likely to get a stave if your highest spell skill is higher than your highest weapon skill.

I'd swap that to "total spell skill + spellcasting investment" higher than "total weapon skill + fighting investment (ignoring Unarmed)", but I bet that won't work out better, somehow.

[mps]

As a point of information, can someone comment on the odds of getting manuals with book acquirement and how it relates to spellcasting and/or spell school skills?

(Also, as a fan of wand acquirement, I would definitely not like to see it combined with rod acquirement and I think independent rod acquirement would be too good. Maybe rods being rolled into miscellaneous would make sense, idk.)

[bcadren]

I'd swap that to "total spell skill + spellcasting investment" higher than "total weapon skill + fighting investment (ignoring Unarmed)", but I bet that won't work out better, somehow.

Ehh...makes sense for a mage or for a warrior; craps on the middle category. I'm sure an Enchanter would rather get a QBlade than a Staff of Wizardry from a weapon acquirement; even if they had higher Hexes skill to get Darkness online or Confuse to hit more targets. Even more so for a Skald, Warper or even an Ice elementalist that raises ice/charms for Ozo's Armour and uses a normal weapon to kill things (but total spellcasting between ice and charms ends up being higher than weapon/fighting). etc. etc.

[bcadren]

As a point of information, can someone comment on the odds of getting manuals with book acquirement and how it relates to spellcasting and/or spell school skills?

(Also, as a fan of wand acquirement, I would definitely not like to see it combined with rod acquirement and I think independent rod acquirement would be too good. Maybe rods being rolled into miscellaneous would make sense, idk.)

  Code:

[04:51.20] <Bcadren> ??staff acquirement [2
[04:51.21] <Sequell> staff acquirement[2/2]: If your Evocations is greater than (1d(sum of casting skills) - 4), you get a random rod with an 80% chance. Otherwise, you have a 50% chance to get the
enhancer for your best skill if you haven't seen it (if you have, you have a flat 1/3 chance for any staff). Otherwise, you get wizardry, energy, or power, with the first two being twice as likely.

That's the Staves one. Sequell doesn't say on books. Manuals are virtually guaranteed on a non-caster. Completely guaranteed if ^Trog; not sure if it becomes completely impossible past a certain level of spellschool training or what though.

[mps]

Huh, never saw that learndb entry. I'm surprised manual acquirement isn't a more popular option. I guess if you're not training spell schools, you have plenty of XP to go around anyway.

[Siegurt]

The manual bestowed is fairly unlikely to be a useful one.

[bcadren]

The manual bestowed is fairly unlikely to be a useful one.

I've had good experiences with it actually; got Stealth and Fighting on a Spriggan Berserker...o_0; Pretty sure it's weighted to not give anything you have 0 skill in; and towards the skills you have closest to 12; something you have trained, but not focused in. As in, with a TrBe with no Shield; you'd about literally have to get Fighting, Armour, Dodging, UC, Stealth or Throwing.

[duvessa]

manual acquirement is even crappier than non-manual book acquirement IMO
not sure whether book acquirement should actually give manuals or not, since manuals really are books in most respects
rods have been trying to move away from being staves for a while, but they are definitely more staffy than they are wandy or miscellanousy, so moving them to one of those sounds awful
the other motivation for keeping staff/rod and manual/book together is that you would never want to acquire a staff or spellbook with trog, but currently I don't ever want to acquire a manual either
why would independent rod acquirement be too good? I am pretty sure it is still worse than wand or misc acquirement even with trog most of the time
probably if you want to get rid of these spoilers without disrupting the current situation too much you would remove manuals from book acquirement and either make rod its own choice (hopefully removing some other acquirement like food or gold or wand or misc or ammo), get rid of rods from staff acquirement with no compensation, or replace staff acquirement with rod acquirement
but really scroll of acquirement is so hopelessly and egregiously spoilery already that it's not really going to be an improvement from a design standpoint, it is still utterly impossible to make the decision without spoilers; if you want to fix that you pretty much have to use the crawl light approach of showing the results of each category and making the player choose one, instead of making the player choose a category that they cannot possibly know anything about. of course this also turns something that is a no-brainer 99.9% of the time for spoiled players into something that is a no-brainer 100% of the time for everybody, so you might as well just remove the scroll (same for potion of experience)

[mps]

I think rod acquirement on a first acquirement scroll would be pretty good, considering the strength of some of the rods. This is usually around lair, so wand acquirement may not yet be a great option. I don't like to do wand acquirement until I've seen all or almost all the junk wands, but maybe this is overly cautious. Normally I would acquire armour (or if decent weapons have been in short supply and I'm feeling lucky weapon) with the first acquirement scroll.

[duvessa]

early weapon acquirement is ridiculously good

[bcadren]

early weapon acquirement is ridiculously good

Not really weapon ?acq seems to start being good when you've seen most the weapon types of the class; except maybe the top one. IE if you want to ever have an Exec Axe read Acquirement after seeing both a broad and battleaxe. If you want Acq to have a decent chance of branded or artifact Exec Axe wait until you've seen a mundane one. If you read it (as a polearms character) when all you've seen are Spears, Tridents and Halberds; there's a fair chance it'll give you a shitty Scythe. Odds are higher of that (or a branded version of what you've already seen) than the DTrident, Glaive or Bardiche you'd want...etc.

[cerebovssquire]

If you get a decent broad or battleaxe from ?acq - at a time in the game where you're unlikely to have more than an unbranded war or battleaxe - that is a great result. Same goes for mid-tier (not actually much worse than top-tier) weapons from other classes. And the chance of getting a good weapon early on is higher than a chance of getting a good wand early on, especially since with wands you actually do want the best ones for acquuirement to be worthwhile.

[daggaz]

I just acquired the plutonium sword.

[scorpionwarrior]

early weapon acquirement is ridiculously good

Not really weapon ?acq seems to start being good when you've seen most the weapon types of the class; except maybe the top one. IE if you want to ever have an Exec Axe read Acquirement after seeing both a broad and battleaxe. If you want Acq to have a decent chance of branded or artifact Exec Axe wait until you've seen a mundane one. If you read it (as a polearms character) when all you've seen are Spears, Tridents and Halberds; there's a fair chance it'll give you a shitty Scythe. Odds are higher of that (or a branded version of what you've already seen) than the DTrident, Glaive or Bardiche you'd want...etc.

Even if you're right about that it isn't ever worth considering, use your acquirement scrolls right away always

[daggaz]

Not to mention that there is no guarantee by any means that that will work. Sure you weight the outcome towards a more favorable return, but there is a lot of variance in the equation. You still have a very real chance of a) pulling a top type even if you haven't seen them all, b) pulling a low tier type even if you have seen them all, and c) pulling a weapon of the entirely wrong class, even though you don't have any points in that skill.

Much better to just take the chance immediately, as any gains will just increase your chances of living to find a better weapon later.

The only time I make an exception to this is with shortblades, if my character is reasonably comfortable with threat mitigation, as it doesn't take long to find a dagger, a shortblade, and a cutlass, leaving you with a comparatively high chance of pulling a qblade. That said, I still often end up with a decent randart shortblade or a damn lajatang.