Why do ranged monsters demonstrate sub-optimal behavior?

[XuaXua]

Offtopic, on Centaurs:

It is kind of "stupid" that monsters which use ranged weaponry switch to melee weaponry when the player is adjacent, as though there were some penalty if they continued to use ranged while adjacent, but the player can use ranged weaponry when adjacent, and there is no known penalty. Same goes for spell-casting monsters when adjacent.

I think this monster behavior demonstrates to "unspoiled" players that it is always optimal to use melee when adjacent, when this is certainly not true.

[and into]

Upon request, split off from a discussion in Advice form.

[XuaXua]

Upon request, split off from a discussion in Advice form.

Yeah, but now the crazies will have at it. I wanted legit discussion. Legit discussion please, crazies.

[Pereza0]

I see your point of view, but man, centaurs would be unmanageable if they didn't do that.

If they were trying to be "optimal" they would also try to kite the player like Sil orcs do which would be quite evil too

[and into]

Upon request, split off from a discussion in Advice form.

Yeah, but now the crazies will have at it. I wanted legit discussion. Legit discussion please, crazies.

Yes, sorry, should have said that in my earlier post. Didn't think this post alone was fleshed out enough for GDD, but yes, please try to stay on topic and discuss the matter at least semi-seriously. (Alternatively, you can start a new thread in GDD and I can close this thread.)

[Bloax]

The reason they are as stupid as they are now is so that they aren't annoying little fuckers (see: orb spiders) that kite the shit out of you and are generally very unpleasant to fight.
You still want to minimize the amount of fire you take, but at least you can actually do something more than get kited.

[KoboldLord]

The devteam tried it the way you suggest in a much older version. The results were terrible. It turns out that the game is more fun with a moderate amount of artificial stupidity applied to the monsters.

[tasonir]

I would phrase it somewhat more positively in that it allows for better counterplay from the player, which is fun and tactically rewarding. There is also the archer flag, which makes monsters behave somewhat smarter as an archer, but it's rare. I know deep elf master archers have it, although I'm not too sure about any other monsters that do. It wouldn't be a good idea to put it on centaurs, although it's possible that it may work on the centaur warriors/yaktaur captains. Even that is probably overkill, though.

Explaination/discussion of counter play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

[jejorda2]

I would like to see a mechanic like, "Getting hit by any melee attack while wielding a launcherprevents launcher use for 1.5 turns and drops a piece of ammo" so it is better to use melee attacks when something is in melee range. Make their behavior sensible instead of making it a demonstration of bad tactics.

[amaril]

I think this monster behavior demonstrates to "unspoiled" players that it is always optimal to use melee when adjacent, when this is certainly not true.

For about a year I was basically an unspoiled player, and I always assumed this was the case. I would never use ranged weapons as my main weapon because I thought optimal play involved constant weapon swapping. I like the difficulty of centaurs as-is, and (as discussed) they would be incredibly annoying if they fought optimally, but I do kind of wish the game somehow told new players that there was no consequence for using ranged weapons up close, even though there is nothing (besides ranged monster behavior) that indicates that ranged weapons might have such a drawback.

Out of curiosity, is it sometimes optimal to switch to a melee weapon as a ranged weapon user (outside of weird hypothetical situations, such as where a monster is susceptible to a damage type)? I suppose that ranged weapons might be weaker as far as damage/turn, to balance their range, but training multiple weapon types seems like a costly use of experience.

[duvessa]

I think this monster behavior demonstrates to "unspoiled" players that it is always optimal to use melee when adjacent, when this is certainly not true.

For about a year I was basically an unspoiled player, and I always assumed this was the case. I would never use ranged weapons as my main weapon because I thought optimal play involved constant weapon swapping.

good news, it does! not because there's a penalty (there isn't) or because melee is better in any way (it isn't) but because there's enough ammo to use on everything dangerous, but not enough ammo to use on everything, so you get to spend extra time switching to a melee weapon to kill rats and orcs and stuff

[XuaXua]

I thought optimal play involved constant weapon swapping.

good news, it does! {example of swapping to melee against fodder to conserve ammo}

Correct, but the issue here is that the behavior demonstrated by the AI teaches unspoiled players that sub-optimal tactics (a potentially weaker melee attack) should be preferred in situations against "potentially" more powerful foes when adjacent.

I'm not recommending that centaurs {orc wizards} kite players, but perhaps they shouldn't switch from bows {magic} when adjacent, unless out of ammunition {non-existent monster MP pool}.

I'm trying to see this from the perspective of those "usability" trials that used to be applied to earlier Crawl versions. Whatever happened to those?

[Pereza0]

I think players will easily be able to notice if they are doing more damage with ranged weaponry or melee since you can freely switch between them. In the early game hunters will do a lot more damage with their launchers, switching to melee to kill fodder mostly.

They should also notice that by forcing them to switch away from ranged weaponry Centaurs actually go from threatening to mostly harmless.

There might be some problems with this behavior, but I am not sure players imitating it is the biggest issue with it

[PleasingFungus]

it's impossible to tell how much damage you do, since crawl doesn't have damage numbers. we are all lost in an existential haze of doubt.

[Rast]

I think this monster behavior demonstrates to "unspoiled" players that it is always optimal to use melee when adjacent, when this is certainly not true.

For about a year I was basically an unspoiled player, and I always assumed this was the case. I would never use ranged weapons as my main weapon because I thought optimal play involved constant weapon swapping.

good news, it does! not because there's a penalty (there isn't) or because melee is better in any way (it isn't) but because there's enough ammo to use on everything dangerous, but not enough ammo to use on everything, so you get to spend extra time switching to a melee weapon to kill rats and orcs and stuff

There's enough ammo for slings without ever having to switch. You can go D1-Z:5 as a slinger without ever attacking in melee.

[Lasty]

On the topic of ammo availability, a branch where fired ammo always mulches is going to be available in 0.17 as a trial. In the branch, placed ammo and starting ammo are multiplied by the same factor as their old drop rate plus about 20%, but monsters with ammo will keep the same quantity they've always had. I believe that this will have the effect of making ammo rarer overall, with the intention to 1) eliminate the irritations associated with picking up ammo, and 2) firming up the positioning of ranged combat as a powerful, full-LOS form of attack that you have to spend XP on to make effective use of, but which you can't use to solve all your problems.

Whether it's more fun than current ranged combat remains to be seen.

[Sprucery]

Any changes to ammo gifting by Trog/Oka?

[Lasty]

Any changes to ammo gifting by Trog/Oka?

I believe gifted ammo will be multiplied, with the consequence that Trog/Oka will allow you to use ranged weapons non-stop. Gods are allowed to break rules.

[XuaXua]

a branch

A new branch or an existing branch, adjusted?

[bel]

Will large rocks always mulch?