Amulet of Convinence

[tasonir]

Mostly serious but I know it'll never happen proposal: The amulet of Convenience: {Gourmand rCorr rMut Regen}. An unrand that combines the 4 situational but not really that often needed effects and lets you just keep them on without switching. Regen does of course have some general, in combat boost but if I didn't include it then I'd be switching back and forth between regen and {gourmand rCorr rMut} all the time, so this way you can really just put it on and forget you have an amulet slot.

I can dream, right? It shouldn't be too terribly powerful since most of the effects are situational...

[Sandman25]

I like that we have many amulets, it is not obvious which amulet to wear during fights.

[Moose]

Mostly serious but I know it'll never happen proposal: The amulet of Convenience: {Gourmand rCorr rMut Regen}.

ooooorrrr ... perhaps the devs can just get rid of the food clock, corrosion, mutations, and hp loss?

[bcadren]

ooooorrrr ... perhaps the devs can just get rid of the food clock, corrosion, mutations, and hp loss?

...How about no?

[tedric]

I like that we have many amulets, it is not obvious which amulet to wear during fights.

In my experience this is rarely true, at least in a typical 3-rune game. The only times I can remember ever actually having to think about how to prioritize my amulet options during a fight happened in Abyss (Golden Eye + Neqoxec = Clarity/RMut) or Slime (Golden Eye + Shining Eye + Acid Blob = Clarity/RMut/RCorr) -- and even then it is usually pretty clear which one I should be wearing based on what's in LOS, what has direct LOF, what's right next to me, and what I plan to do next.

[Sandman25]

I often switch to stasis, clarity, rCorr, rMut, regeneration in dungeon, orc, spider, shoals, snake, vaults, depths vs regular monsters and in basically any branch vs uniques. I believe you know all those monsters or do you really want me to list them here?
Also I often wear stasis or clarity by default (even as non-Mu). Wearing regen by default is suboptimal though it saves a lot of swapping indeed.

[tasonir]

I understand that clarity has its uses, as well as stasis to prevent paralysis. The thing is, confuse and paralysis can both be 100% stopped if you have enough magic resistance. There may be some rare games where you don't have any MR items spawn at all, and I'm terribly sorry for whoever gets a game like that, but otherwise, just wear MR, and then drop clarity/stasis amulets on the ground. Giant eyeballs are about the only exception, and you just know to bring something smitey for them, or back away from them, etc etc. You could use stasis for them if you like, I generally don't.

I'm fairly guilty of sticking to a core set of items I like and ignoring things that aren't required, and I understand there are other ways to do things, which may even be better, but my experience is more like tedric's. If there's a mutator you wear rMut, if there's acid it's rCorr, otherwise regen. I mostly added gourmand for laughs. The only time you're strained is usually slime, where you want rCorr and rMut at the same time and might have to juggle. My strategy in spider is to just kill them before they confuse me, and if I get confused, I just ctrl+direction attack them until I get lucky and kill the spider. This is usually highly effective even though it sounds (and probably is) extremely stupid.

[Kismet]

I often switch to stasis, clarity, rCorr, rMut, regeneration in dungeon, orc, spider, shoals, snake, vaults, depths vs regular monsters and in basically any branch vs uniques. I believe you know all those monsters or do you really want me to list them here?.

This sounds like a really good argument for jewellery getting destroyed on unequip.

[Sandman25]

I often switch to stasis, clarity, rCorr, rMut, regeneration in dungeon, orc, spider, shoals, snake, vaults, depths vs regular monsters and in basically any branch vs uniques. I believe you know all those monsters or do you really want me to list them here?.

This sounds like a really good argument for jewellery getting destroyed on unequip.

Yes, let's make every character look the same. Like tournament games when almost everyone plays DECj as melee character to win faster in real time.

[Sandman25]

I understand that clarity has its uses, as well as stasis to prevent paralysis. The thing is, confuse and paralysis can both be 100% stopped if you have enough magic resistance. There may be some rare games where you don't have any MR items spawn at all, and I'm terribly sorry for whoever gets a game like that, but otherwise, just wear MR, and then drop clarity/stasis amulets on the ground. Giant eyeballs are about the only exception, and you just know to bring something smitey for them, or back away from them, etc etc. You could use stasis for them if you like, I generally don't.

I'm fairly guilty of sticking to a core set of items I like and ignoring things that aren't required, and I understand there are other ways to do things, which may even be better, but my experience is more like tedric's. If there's a mutator you wear rMut, if there's acid it's rCorr, otherwise regen. I mostly added gourmand for laughs. The only time you're strained is usually slime, where you want rCorr and rMut at the same time and might have to juggle. My strategy in spider is to just kill them before they confuse me, and if I get confused, I just ctrl+direction attack them until I get lucky and kill the spider. This is usually highly effective even though it sounds (and probably is) extremely stupid.

I probably overvalue MR, basically I wear it over any other item so if I switch amulets it means I have no MR items.
Regarding attacking spiders while confused don't do it as MuSu of Sif Muna in a robe

[bcadren]

Honestly on the majority of my characters...I could pretty much curse one amulet to my body and be fine with it for most the early-to-mid game. [Gourmand for Spellcasters; Faith for Zealots; Clarity for Mummies] Inevitably end up trading it for Shielding, Air or some randArt with good resists before late game. Only times I'd really consider using other amulets are...rCorr for Slime; rMut for Gloorx Pan (and occasionally the Abyss) and Clarity on anyone...if I had no other way to avoid confusion...but I usually don't switch Gourmand and Faith are too helpful early to switch until resistance stacking is more appealing.

[Kismet]

I often switch to stasis, clarity, rCorr, rMut, regeneration in dungeon, orc, spider, shoals, snake, vaults, depths vs regular monsters and in basically any branch vs uniques. I believe you know all those monsters or do you really want me to list them here?.

This sounds like a really good argument for jewellery getting destroyed on unequip.

Yes, let's make every character look the same. Like tournament games when almost everyone plays DECj as melee character to win faster in real time.

I think swapping produces more same-ness by neutralizing the distinguishing features of monsters at a generally trivial cost. Having access to particular amulets doesn't differentiate characters so much as bring a certain portion of those characters' monster encounters closer to the speed 10 melee template that every character will spend most of the game managing.

[Sandman25]

I think swapping produces more same-ness by neutralizing the distinguishing features of monsters at a generally trivial cost. Having access to particular amulets doesn't differentiate characters so much as bring a certain portion of those characters' monster encounters closer to the speed 10 melee template that every character will spend most of the game managing.

While I like basic idea of making different characters more distinct (I even suggested to limit number of magic schools per character at some point) I don't like choice "do you want to die to paralysis, to mutations or to corrosion" though yes, a game where I was paralyzed about 7 times can be considered fun.

[Kismet]

"do you want to die to paralysis, to mutations or to corrosion" t

Well, I don't find myself in a lot of games that produce that sort of choice sui generis. Usually there are a lot of other decisions precipitating the moment at which a currently amulet/ring mitigated effect is decisive in killing me. I guess in the situation where swapping isn't trivial, you spend more time on those other decisions.

[Sandman25]

Well, I don't find myself in a lot of games that produce that sort of choice sui generis. Usually there are a lot of other decisions precipitating the moment at which a currently amulet/ring mitigated effect is decisive in killing me. I guess in the situation where swapping isn't trivial, you spend more time on those other decisions.

That's because you have access to all these amulets. Imagine what happened if you could use only one type of amulet in any game, I bet we would be dying more often to mutations/corrosion/teleportations/paralysis etc.

[Pereza0]

Man. That amulet is just really boring compared to the other unrandart ones. "Amulet of Convenience" should be enough to clue one in.

I think rCorr and rMut could make sense as something Slime themed though, could have some other more interesting properties

[chequers]

Why does jewelry take less time to swap than armour? Is the intent to allow micromanagement during fights? Is this still a current goal?

[Sprucery]

Why does jewelry take less time to swap than armour? Is the intent to allow micromanagement during fights? Is this still a current goal?

I think it is fine. Otherwise you would retreat upstairs to switch from MR+ ring to rF+ ring whenever you spotted a fire dragon.

[and into]

Why does jewelry take less time to swap than armour? Is the intent to allow micromanagement during fights? Is this still a current goal?

I think it is fine. Otherwise you would retreat upstairs to switch from MR+ ring to rF+ ring whenever you spotted a fire dragon.

I don't think people commonly walk around with multiple branded plate armors and do what you describe (even when they don't have jewelry to swap instead), so I'd have to assume that if jewelry took longer to swap, most people would simply stop swapping jewelry around for specific fights (maybe you'd still carry it around in the off chance of an ice cave or ice-themed floor, or if an early Fannar has a staff of cold that you want, etc.)

For your average fight, if you can escape up the stairs, you just avoid the fight, rather than go swap around all of your gear to optimize for a single fight. If you can escape the fire dragon and get up the stairs, you have "beaten" the encounter, and you can just (nearly always) walk down a different flight of stairs and pretend you slew the fire dragon.

Swapping jewelry, by contrast, is fast enough that its cost is low and it is therefore worthwhile to carry around multiple different rings and swap them in battle, which is something I have never found particularly fun. (When a potentially dangerous enemy is on screen, I don't think it is very fun to drag up the "(p)ut on" screen and then be careful I don't type the wrong letter and accidentally put on the wrong ring.)

[duvessa]

Why does jewelry take less time to swap than armour? Is the intent to allow micromanagement during fights? Is this still a current goal?

I think it is fine. Otherwise you would retreat upstairs to switch from MR+ ring to rF+ ring whenever you spotted a fire dragon.

I don't think people commonly walk around with multiple branded plate armors and do what you describe

I do this with armour fairly often.

[Sprucery]

I don't think people commonly walk around with multiple branded plate armors and do what you describe, so I'd have to assume that if jewelry took longer to swap, most people would simply stop swapping jewelry around for specific fights (maybe you'd still carry it around in the off chance of an ice cave or ice-themed floor, or if an early Fannar has a staff of cold that you want, etc.)

Well, I definitely carry rF+ and rC+ armour if they are both good enough otherwise and they are my only sources of resistance. By the time I see dragons I typically have rings for this purpose. Sometimes (e.g. early Fannar) I do a ctrl-f search to see if there's any usable rC+ armour I could fetch.

Of course you are right in that if you can escape upstairs, you can usually just avoid the fight. But I personally don't want to leave that dragon around to bother me later, in case I have to flee from another battle, for example.

I definitely find it more fun that I can swap a ring in battle, compared to that I couldn't and had to fight without the resistance I wanted.

[Kismet]

I definitely find it more fun that I can swap a ring in battle, compared to that I couldn't and had to fight without the resistance I wanted.

A few times is fine, but when you get the point where every fight might be safer with a swap I find it tedious to think about.

[and into]

I do this with armour fairly often.

Well, I definitely carry rF+ and rC+ armour if they are both good enough otherwise and they are my only sources of resistance.

Fair enough.

I do think longer swap times would remove juggling stuff like gourmand/rCorr/etc., as mentioned in OP. Then again, juggling gourmand can also be removed by simply removing gourmand, for instance, so.

[Berder]

Honestly I don't think swapping is too big a hassle. Just assign the jewelry to convenient letters (like r for regen, t for ring of teleportation, s for stasis, c or C for cold resistance, f for fire resistance, p for poison resistance, etc) and it's easy to remember without looking at the screen.

In a game that has paralysis that can instakill many characters from full HP, I think it's not fair to eliminate the possibility of swappable stasis. (or clarity for mummies) MR is not a perfect defense against paralysis; maybe if you have lots of MR it's a 95% defense, but that means any time something casts paralysis while near heavy hitters you have a 5% chance of dying, which is not acceptable. Plus there are hornets, clouds of chaos, and chaos branded attacks which can bypass MR to paralyze.

I like to play lightly armored characters. Paralysis has caused a lot of high level deaths for me, and a bunch of close calls too.

  Code:

<halberd> !lg . status~~para s=xl,char
<Sequell> 9 games for halberd (status~~para): 2x 20 (OpCj, OpCK), 18 (OpHe), 4 (VpVM), 17 (OpWz), 14 (DEVM), 27 (OpFE), 13 (OpAs), 23 (HEAM)

[Sandman25]

Honestly I don't think swapping is too big a hassle. Just assign the jewelry to convenient letters (like r for regen, t for ring of teleportation, s for stasis, c or C for cold resistance, f for fire resistance, p for poison resistance, etc) and it's easy to remember without looking at the screen.

+1

I use the following:

  Code:

item_slot ^= ring of protection from fire:f
item_slot ^= ring of protection from cold:c
item_slot ^= amulet of warding:W
item_slot ^= ring of protection from magic:m
item_slot ^= amulet of resist corrosion:v
item_slot ^= ring of flight:F
item_slot ^= ring of wizardry:w
item_slot ^= ring of poison resistance:p
item_slot ^= ring of positive:n
item_slot ^= ring of invisibility:i
item_slot ^= ring of see invisible:I
item_slot ^= amulet of stasis:s
item_slot ^= amulet of resist mutation:M
item_slot ^= ring of teleportation:X
item_slot ^= wand of hasting:H
item_slot ^= potion of hasting:h
item_slot ^= scroll of blinking:L
item_slot ^= scroll of teleportation:t
item_slot ^= wand of teleportation:T
item_slot ^= ring of evasion:e
item_slot ^= crystall ball:V
item_slot ^= amulet of clarity:C
item_slot ^= blowgun:g
item_slot ^= amulet of regeneration:r

[tasonir]

MR is not a perfect defense against paralysis; maybe if you have lots of MR it's a 95% defense, but that means any time something casts paralysis while near heavy hitters you have a 5% chance of dying, which is not acceptable. Plus there are hornets, clouds of chaos, and chaos branded attacks which can bypass MR to paralyze.[/code]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way that MR works is it rolls a number and then subtracts your MR from that number, and the result is the % chance of it working. So if you have a 95% chance to resist, then a mere 5 MR gives you a 100% chance to resist. There are no diminishing returns, and you can reach 100% immunity. If something has a 40% chance of paralyzing you, wearing a ring of magic resistance makes that 0.

Your points about hornets, clouds of chaos, etc are of course valid, although I recently was hit by hornets and only got slowed - do they do both effects still? While chaos can do anything, it's chaos, I generally only worry about eyeballs for my bypass MR worries.

Edit: note that it can be hard to tell if mr+++ is 5 MR short of perfect immunity or if it is enough, which is why mr++++ is nice to have for safety, but mr+++ is generally enough especially if the monster has somewhat lower HD than an ancient lich.

[Siegurt]

MR is not a perfect defense against paralysis; maybe if you have lots of MR it's a 95% defense, but that means any time something casts paralysis while near heavy hitters you have a 5% chance of dying, which is not acceptable. Plus there are hornets, clouds of chaos, and chaos branded attacks which can bypass MR to paralyze.[/code]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way that MR works is it rolls a number and then subtracts your MR from that number, and the result is the % chance of it working. So if you have a 95% chance to resist, then a mere 5 MR gives you a 100% chance to resist. There are no diminishing returns, and you can reach 100% immunity. If something has a 40% chance of paralyzing you, wearing a ring of magic resistance makes that 0.

Your points about hornets, clouds of chaos, etc are of course valid, although I recently was hit by hornets and only got slowed - do they do both effects still? While chaos can do anything, it's chaos, I generally only worry about eyeballs for my bypass MR worries.

Here's your correction:
So the "Number rolled" is based on the power of the enchantment being cast, which is based on monster HD, typically, so you can get 100% immunity vs *a certain attack by a certain monster* you won't be immune to the same attack by a higher level creature.

Also you start with a 0 chance to resist things with no MR, the "95% chance" Berder is referring to is the imaginary "chance after having lots of MR"

Also while there aren't "diminishing returns" in the sense that more points of MR give you decreasing amounts of protection generically against all attacks, there are decreasing returns in the sense that it takes more and more MR to get to 100% protection against a critter, the MR doesn't have a linear chance of protection it's actually a function that looks like this:


So to sum up, Enchantment power goes up with monster level, so a given amount of MR protects less against higher level creatures, and it is possible to get to 100% protection, but it takes a lot more MR to go from 90->100% than it does to go from 50->60% protection.