Labyrinths

[Sprucery]

[Mod Note: Split off from discussion that was in YASD]

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You also visited: Labyrinth, Trove, Bailey and Ice Cave.

I have the impression that speedrunners quite often visit Labyrinths. Clearly the value of the loot is estimated to be worth the number of turns spent there (in this case less than 500). This makes me think Labyrinths should be harder to solve :)

[Sandman25]

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You also visited: Labyrinth, Trove, Bailey and Ice Cave.

I have the impression that speedrunners quite often visit Labyrinths. Clearly the value of the loot is estimated to be worth the number of turns spent there (in this case less than 500). This makes me think Labyrinths should be harder to solve

Why? Have you never died to the Minotaur?

[mps]

Labyrinths are somewhat easier to solve as formicid.

[Sprucery]

Why? Have you never died to the Minotaur?

No, I'm pretty sure I never have. I admit that the current Minotaur gives pretty tough fights sometimes and I always rush for the Labyrinth so it may well be that someday the Mino will get me.

But I actually meant that the minotaur is found too quickly if speedrunners think it's a good deal. It doesn't feel like a maze where starvation awaits...

[Sprucery]

Labyrinths are somewhat easier to solve as formicid.

Sure, but for example Yermak's DgAs also visited a Labyrinth (http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/Yermak/morgue-Yermak-20150223-223050.txt).

[duvessa]

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You also visited: Labyrinth, Trove, Bailey and Ice Cave.

I have the impression that speedrunners quite often visit Labyrinths. Clearly the value of the loot is estimated to be worth the number of turns spent there (in this case less than 500). This makes me think Labyrinths should be harder to solve

Why? Have you never died to the Minotaur?

The minotaur has absolutely nothing to do with the maze. Solving a maze is so easy that the game already has a feature that does it automatically, but it's disabled inside labyrinths in an attempt to hide the egregiously bad design.

Also the minotaur isn't dangerous either.

[nago]

I'd say the minotaur himself isn't dangerous. Unless it pick some good loot before you get him, like a +8 plate and a rod of swarm/shadows/whatever in which case he may be an unkillable beast. Which I don't think it's really good thing

[mps]

I think the relevant notion of ease in the discussion of solving mazes in a speedrun (or otherwise high scoring run) is how many turns it takes, not how mentally taxing it is... lol...

[Berder]

I once got a minotaur with a wand of confusion which he zapped me with successfully over and over, and in the end with my cures gone he killed me.

Overall labs have about a 3% chance of death among greatplayers, 5% among all players. They're less deadly than ice caves.

[Sprucery]

The minotaur without equipment is not dangerous, I'm quite sure everyone agrees on that. In the past, the minotaur was practically always easy to kill. Nowadays it can indeed have a rod and some good armour, for example. I think it's a very good thing, personally. I remember fondly a fight where the mino had a rod of shadows. Most of the time it's still pretty easy to take it down with ranged attacks.

Also, I'm sorry about derailing the thread. I just thought that speedrunners going to labyrinths is a funny concept.

[1010011010]

Labyrinths is less deadly than other portals because it has one enemy which is easy to strategize against before you enter the portal. If you're uncomfortable fighting a Minotaur, you don't enter.

Edit: There are other monster in there nowadays but they never propose any real threat.

[mps]

I'd have to look at the code to be sure, but my feeling is that the mazes in crawl are contrived to have long, winding solutions, more than is typical of certain models of a "random maze" (e.g. picking a random spanning tree of a grid). If you break through a wall in such a maze, you often radically decrease the length of the solution and the amount of time it takes to find a solution using typical heuristics, like trying to go toward the middle of the level or metal walls. So from a speed running perspective, I suspect that if you have a wand of digging or disintegration (or you're a formicid), you can finish a labyrinth quickly with pretty high probability, maybe even faster than an ice cave.

If that seems like a bad thing, the solution would be to place more unbreakable walls. The maze part is a cute gimmick, but a bit tedious, so I definitely wouldn't favor reducing the effectiveness of such shortcuts.

[and into]

Edit: There are other monster in there nowadays but they never propose any real threat.

The only times I've died in a Lab in like the last 5 versions or so have been from running into those packs of gargoyles in labyrinths that spawned relatively early. High defense, and their stone arrows hurt pretty bad if you are only level 12 or so. (Well, I think maybe the minotaur killed me once over this time period, as I remember he spawned with a lightning rod or wand of lightning one time, and I lacked rElec and had no !resistance.)

In the two or three times where I died to those gargoyles, a major contributing factor in the death was that you can't autoexplore in Labs, and going through the maze is pretty boring, so you are pressing movement keys as fast as possible. By the time my brain registered "oh shit those aren't hungry ghosts" I had already moved two or three tiles in the wrong direction, to the point that ?fog wasn't an option, and you can't control where you land with ?blinking in a lab.

So those monsters do make labs more dangerous but also an order of magnitude more annoying, since now you not only have to slog through the maze manually, but for lower level characters you also have to move somewhat slowly/cautiously throughout the entire thing (not just when you are a ways into the metal wall area).

I understood the arguments against them, but Labs didn't bother me too much before the other enemies were added, and I actually defended them in some threads; now, while I still do them for the loot, I groan and curse every time one spawns in a game. They aren't too bad with disintegration/digging, at least, but they aren't fun either (until you get the goodies at the end).

[Sprucery]

Adding monsters to Labyrinths was a mistake in my opinion as well.

[Sandman25]

I like monsters in Lab, they are dangerous and varied/interesting/fun. (Though Minotaur is dangerous for me as well).

[and into]

I like monsters in Lab, they are dangerous and varied/interesting/fun. (Though Minotaur is dangerous for me as well).

I'm all for balanced but legitimately challenging levels of danger, and (in the abstract) gargoyles look to be a pretty good fit for an *early* lab.

The problem is that, in labyrinths, you

1.) cannot autoexplore, and
2.) nearly all of your actions are movements in a non-combat situation

This can make labs dull, but so long as these two things are true, trying to "spice things up" with random vaults that contain enemies is a strong step in the wrong direction, because it means you now have to actually pay attention and be careful about the (manual) non-combat movements that, even when multiple enemy-containing lab vaults spawn, are going to be more than 90% of your actions.

Either labs should move further and more confidently in the direction of a "gauntlet"-style portal (the entire maze has non-negligible enemies consistently dispersed throughout it), or else it should just be a maze with one big baddie at the center, whose proximity is clearly telegraphed to the player. (Or they should simply be removed.)

In any event the warning about starvation (lol) should be removed, if it hasn't already. A warning about not being able to immediately exit the portal is, of course, appropriate.

[Sandman25]

I'm all for balanced but legitimately challenging levels of danger, and (in the abstract) gargoyles look to be a pretty good fit for an *early* lab.

The problem is that, in labyrinths, you

1.) cannot autoexplore, and
2.) nearly all of your actions are movements in a non-combat situation

This can make labs dull, but so long as these two things are true, trying to "spice things up" with random vaults that contain enemies is a strong step in the wrong direction, because it means you now have to actually pay attention and be careful about the (manual) non-combat movements that, even when multiple enemy-containing lab vaults spawn, are going to be more than 90% of your actions.

I have "more" prompt for every monster coming into view so I am not experiencing this problem. I mean movement keys are ignored when a new monster comes into view.

[and into]

I have "more" prompt for every monster coming into view so I am not experiencing this problem.

If there is a way to have a more prompt for every monster coming into view in a labyrinth, I would add that to my rc file. But otherwise this cure would be worse than the disease, for me. (That's just my own play preferences, though.)

[Arrhythmia]

I have "more" prompt for every monster coming into view so I am not experiencing this problem.

If there is a way to have a more prompt for every monster coming into view in a labyrinth, I would add that to my rc file. But otherwise this cure would be worse than the disease, for me. (That's just my own play preferences, though.)

Use shift movement dude.

[and into]

I have "more" prompt for every monster coming into view so I am not experiencing this problem.

If there is a way to have a more prompt for every monster coming into view in a labyrinth, I would add that to my rc file. But otherwise this cure would be worse than the disease, for me. (That's just my own play preferences, though.)

Use shift movement dude.

I do, but it gets annoying to do that with complete consistency in a labyrinth (personally). Probably should just suck it up. — Still say it was bad for the game, in terms of design, to add lab vaults that place enemies (aside from Minotaur, obviously).

[bcadren]

I'd say the minotaur himself isn't dangerous. Unless it pick some good loot before you get him, like a +8 plate and a rod of swarm/shadows/whatever in which case he may be an unkillable beast. Which I don't think it's really good thing

Lear's Hauberk and Rod of Lightning once for me. GEEZ. He can be deadly in melee range anyways...but most characters don't let him get there.

[n1000]

Mazes are so simple and boring that I think I have only enjoyed solving them a single-digit number of times, and all of them before I was ten years old.

The flavor of a labyrinth housing a minotaur is definitely cool but I think that the portal vault should be scrapped and remade as some sort of regular tactical challenge thematically based on the Cretan Labyrinth instead of a maze--which isn't really like the "real" Labyrinth at all.

A while ago I was mulling over the idea of a sort of classical myth inspired portal vault into which labs could be subsumed, as long as they became something other than mazes. We could have one which sets the player against a hydra, too. Anyway, the point is there are a lot of cool set-pieces which would culminate in a fight versus a minotaur but doing a maze isn't one of them.

[scorpionwarrior]

Adding monsters to Labyrinths was a mistake in my opinion as well.

What if additional monsters in Lab were all put behind runed doors? Players could open the vault if they wanted to break up all the hot mazy action, or ignore it and just kill the minotaur.

[PleasingFungus]

Mazes are so simple and boring that I think I have only enjoyed solving them a single-digit number of times, and all of them before I was ten years old.

I would rephrase this somewhat. I have nothing against mazes. I think there are people who enjoy solving mazes, and that's fine.

But crawl isn't a game about solving mazes. It's a game about tactical combat and resource management. And introducing, randomly, a "maze-solving interlude" into that makes no sense - as if you were to randomly add a tic-tac-toe challenge vault, or a sokoban branch. Crawl doesn't need to add other games into itself for variety - if people have had too much of crawl's usual gameplay and want a break, they can go play other games outside crawl just fine, without interrupting everyone else!

This is the main problem with people who want to improve lab by making it a harder maze, add time pressure, etc - the lab does not at present provide any serious test of maze-solving skill. That's not what crawl is about. If it did, that would be a problem - as if the game were to provide bonus xp/loot for people who have good FPS skills, or who had mastered crosswords.

The flavor of a labyrinth housing a minotaur is definitely cool but I think that the portal vault should be scrapped and remade as some sort of regular tactical challenge thematically based on the Cretan Labyrinth instead of a maze--which isn't really like the "real" Labyrinth at all.

A while ago I was mulling over the idea of a sort of classical myth inspired portal vault into which labs could be subsumed, as long as they became something other than mazes. We could have one which sets the player against a hydra, too. Anyway, the point is there are a lot of cool set-pieces which would culminate in a fight versus a minotaur but doing a maze isn't one of them.

Something along these lines sounds vaguely reasonable, though it'd have to be fleshed out more for me to really say.

[Sprucery]

What if additional monsters in Lab were all put behind runed doors? Players could open the vault if they wanted to break up all the hot mazy action, or ignore it and just kill the minotaur.

Unless there's loot in there as well, there would be little point for anyone to open those doors. And I don't think Labyrinths should have more loot.

[Rast]

How about this...

Remove maprot. Allow auto-explore. Increase the rate at which the maze changes, a little. Increase the number of interesting, or at least flavorful, encounters/minivaults in the maze (I think this last has already been done in .16). Buff the minotaur.

[cerealjynx]

I like Labyriths cuz they give me the sense that I am really god at solving mazes. And Killing minotaurs.

Seen some really dangerous geared out minotaurs. One with +13 SwDA and a Rod of Ignition!

[jejorda2]

How about this...

Remove maprot. Allow auto-explore. Increase the rate at which the maze changes, a little. Increase the number of interesting, or at least flavorful, encounters/minivaults in the maze (I think this last has already been done in .16). Buff the minotaur.

But then you can get to a point where you (and auto-explore) know what the map looks like, but you know wrong. So there is a path (or a set of paths) to the exit, but autoexplore won't take it because the auto-map shows it won't work.

I think Maprot has to exist for map changing to exist, unless you just have ever-renewing magic mapping or the changes always occur in sight, so your map is either unknown or up-to-date.

Walls that turn into unenterable clouds that turn into spaces and spaces that turn into unenterable clouds that turn into walls could be fun in a lab. But I guess you would just wait for the way forward to open.

[Rast]

But then you can get to a point where you (and auto-explore) know what the map looks like, but you know wrong. So there is a path (or a set of paths) to the exit, but autoexplore won't take it because the auto-map shows it won't work.

And that's where you take over from autoexplore...

[scorpionwarrior]

Unless there's loot in there as well, there would be little point for anyone to open those doors. And I don't think Labyrinths should have more loot.

Are monsters only valuable if they drop stuff or are guarding stuff? I don't think that's true all the time.

[Sprucery]

Well, I doubt there would be so many monsters behind runed doors that the exp from them would actually matter. It would be better to just head straight for the minotaur and the guaranteed loot. This way you wouldn't at least have to use consumables in case there are some nasty monsters there.

Of course if you make the maze much longer, you might want to kill the monsters for food and/or piety. I'm pretty convinced this isn't the direction the devs want to see Labs go.

[crate]

But then you can get to a point where you (and auto-explore) know what the map looks like, but you know wrong. So there is a path (or a set of paths) to the exit, but autoexplore won't take it because the auto-map shows it won't work.

And that's where you take over from autoexplore...

I think you mean that's where you forget the level map and press "o" again.

[jejorda2]

But then you can get to a point where you (and auto-explore) know what the map looks like, but you know wrong. So there is a path (or a set of paths) to the exit, but autoexplore won't take it because the auto-map shows it won't work.

And that's where you take over from autoexplore...

I think you mean that's where you forget the level map and press "o" again.

Which is manually implementing map rot, but in a less convenient way.

[mps]

There should be a labyrinth variant where there are worms and stuff along the way and the monster at the center is David Bowie.

[jejorda2]

I don't play tiles, but Jareth is how I mentally picture Robin, the goblin king.