The Culling Question


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Slime Squisher

Posts: 332

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Location: The South, US

Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 01:29

The Culling Question

If Crawl, for some important reason, had to cut 2 Gods, 2-3 Species, 1-2 Backgrounds, 1-2 Schools of Magic, 5 or more Spells, 5 or more Monsters, what would you vote for?
(Admittedly, there could be some crossover with Backgrounds and Magic Schools).

(copy-paste for easy list-making :mrgreen: )
  Code:
Gods
[list=1][*][*][/list]
Species
[list=1][*][*][*][/list]
Backgrounds
[list=1][*][*][/list]
Schools of Magic
[list=1][*][*][/list]
Spells
[list=1][*][*][*][*][*][/list]
Monsters
[list=1][*][*][*][*][*][/list]

Gods
  1. Sif Muna
  2. Makhleb
Species
  1. HE
  2. Ha
  3. Mf
Backgrounds
  1. Mo
  2. VM
Magic Schools
  1. Poison
  2. Charms
Spells
  1. Haste
  2. Repel Missiles
  3. Bolt of Foo (except Fire)
  4. Confusing Touch
  5. Phase Shift
Monsters
  1. Slower than Average Monsters (except maybe Torpor Snail, those are cool)
  2. Goblins (or Hobgoblins, one or the other)
  3. Elves or Kenku (Overlap)
  4. Thrashing Horrors (I have never felt remotely threatened by these things)
  5. Mummies
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
TSE

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 01:37

Re: The Culling Question

If Crawl, for some important reason, had to cut 2 Gods, 2-3 Species, 1-2 Backgrounds, 1-2 Schools of Magic, 5 or more Spells, 5 or more Monsters


I would quit playing.

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8782

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 02:01

Re: The Culling Question

Gods
  1. Gozag
  2. Beogh
Species
  1. Deep Dwarf
  2. Felid
  3. Kobold
Backgrounds
  1. Monk
  2. Skald
Magic Schools
  1. Charms
  2. Earth
Spells
  1. Animate Skeleton
  2. Apportation
  3. Beastly Appendage
  4. Infusion
  5. Summon Butterflies
  6. Confusing Touch
  7. Corpse Rot
  8. Cure Poison
  9. Repel Missiles
  10. Searing Ray
  11. Shroud of Golubria
  12. Song of Slaying
  13. Sticks to Snakes
  14. Sure Blade
  15. Throw Frost
  16. Abjuration
  17. Dazzling Spray
  18. Flight
  19. Inner Flame
  20. Portal Projectile
  21. Spectral Weapon
  22. Teleport Other
  23. Alistair's Intoxication
  24. Animate Dead
  25. Condensation Shield
  26. Control Teleport
  27. Force Lance
  28. Passage of Golubria
  29. Petrify
  30. Summon Guardian Golem
  31. Bolt of Magma
  32. Gell's Gravitas
  33. Ignite Poison
  34. Iskenderun's Battlesphere
  35. Silence
  36. Summon Mana Viper
  37. Bolt of Cold
  38. Death Channel
  39. Simulacrum
  40. Spellforged Servitor
  41. Borgnjor's Revivification
  42. Death's Door
  43. Necromutation
  44. Glaciate
  45. Singularity
Monsters
  1. Ignacio
  2. Lorocyproca
  3. Green death
  4. Ice devil
  5. Soul eater
  6. Neqoxec
  7. Orange demon
  8. Rust devil
  9. Red devil
  10. Iron imp
  11. Quasit
  12. Demonspawn other than "demonspawn" (which should not appear or be a valid polymorph target)
  13. Diamond obelisk
  14. Roxanne
  15. Iron golem
  16. Spellforged servitor
  17. Ice statue
  18. Obsidian statue
  19. Orange crystal statue
  20. Statue
  21. Crystal guardian
  22. Toenail golem
  23. Ushabti
  24. Guardian golem
  25. Block of ice
  26. Lightning spire
  27. War gargoyle
  28. Singularity
  29. Lost soul
  30. Battlesphere
  31. Death cob
  32. Sojobo
  33. Tengu warrior
  34. Tengu conjurer
  35. Gastronok
  36. Giant leech
  37. Torpor snail
  38. Swamp worm
  39. Worm
  40. Brian worm
  41. Shadow wraith
  42. Phantasmal warrior
  43. Silent spectre
  44. Hungry ghost
  45. Phantom
  46. Shadow
  47. Drowned soul
  48. Player ghost
  49. Fannar
  50. Deep elf knight
  51. Deep elf fighter
  52. Elemental wellspring
  53. River rat
  54. Porcupine
  55. Rakshasa
  56. Grand avatar
  57. Alligator snapping turtle
  58. Ghost crab
  59. Baby alligator
  60. Iron troll
  61. Ghost moth
  62. Queen bee
  63. Apis
  64. Death yak
  65. Sky beast
  66. The Enchantress
  67. Spriggan defender
  68. Spriggan rider
  69. Spriggan berserker
  70. Spriggan air mage
  71. Spriggan druid
  72. Urug
  73. Orc high priest
  74. Two-headed ogre
  75. Death knight
  76. Glowing shapeshifter
  77. Burning bush
  78. Ballistomycete
  79. Hyperactive ballistomycete
  80. Oklob sapling
  81. Briar patch
  82. Queen ant
  83. Soldier ant
  84. Seraph
  85. Cherub
  86. Emperor scorpion
  87. Orb spider
  88. Trapdoor spider
  89. Tarantella
  90. Redback
  91. Giant mite
  92. Shock serpent
  93. Mana viper
  94. Lava snake
  95. Bone dragon
  96. The Lernaean Hydra
  97. Xtahua
  98. Thorn hunter
  99. Shambling mangrove
  100. Deathcap
  101. Wandering mushroom
  102. Wiglaf
  103. Jorgrun
  104. Gnoll sergeant
  105. Boggart
  106. Gnoll shaman
  107. Robin
  108. Ophan
  109. Great orb of eyes
  110. Shining eye
  111. Eye of draining
  112. Giant eyeball
  113. Golden eye
  114. Hell hog
  115. Holy swine
  116. Raiju
  117. Black bear
  118. Felid
  119. Natasha
  120. Arachne
  121. Asterion
  122. Minotaur
  123. Griffon
  124. Chimera
  125. Dissolution
  126. Jelly
  127. Wind drake
  128. Lindwurm
  129. Big kobold
  130. Unborn
  131. Electric eel
  132. Murray
  133. Curse toe
  134. Curse skull
  135. Octopode crusher
  136. Unseen horror
  137. Kraken
  138. Tentacled monstrosity
  139. Thrashing horror
  140. Satyr
  141. Faun
  142. Polyphemus
  143. Ettin
  144. Cyclops
  145. Spatial maelstrom
  146. Insubstantial wisp
  147. Jory
  148. Jiangshi
  149. Bennu
  150. Raven
  151. Fire bat
  152. Vampire bat
  153. Butterfly
  154. Boulder beetle
  155. Goliath beetle
  156. Boring beetle
  157. Death scarab
  158. Vashnia
  159. Naga warrior
  160. Salamander firebrand
  161. Salamander mystic
  162. Salamander
  163. Naga ritualist
  164. Merfolk avatar
  165. Water nymph
  166. Siren
  167. Mimic, if you can still count those as monsters
  168. Frances
  169. Maud
  170. Donald
  171. Josephine
  172. Joseph
  173. Erica
  174. Maurice
  175. Edmund

You can't actually remove mummy, ghoul, etc. monsters because of player species but I definitely think human, high elf, deep elf, deep dwarf, hill orc, halfling, spriggan, minotaur, tengu, draconian, formicid, vine stalker, demigod, demonspawn, mummy, ghoul, felid, and octopode should not generate or be possible to polymorph to or be placed in vaults, yes.

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 02:12

Re: The Culling Question

duvessa wrote:Gods
  1. Gozag
  2. Beogh
Species
  1. Deep Dwarf
  2. Felid
  3. Kobold
Backgrounds
  1. Monk
  2. Skald
Magic Schools
  1. Charms
  2. Earth
Spells
  1. Animate Skeleton
  2. Apportation
  3. Beastly Appendage
  4. Infusion
  5. Summon Butterflies
  6. Confusing Touch
  7. Corpse Rot
  8. Cure Poison
  9. Repel Missiles
  10. Searing Ray
  11. Shroud of Golubria
  12. Song of Slaying
  13. Sticks to Snakes
  14. Sure Blade
  15. Throw Frost
  16. Abjuration
  17. Dazzling Spray
  18. Flight
  19. Inner Flame
  20. Portal Projectile
  21. Spectral Weapon
  22. Teleport Other
  23. Alistair's Intoxication
  24. Animate Dead
  25. Condensation Shield
  26. Control Teleport
  27. Force Lance
  28. Passage of Golubria
  29. Petrify
  30. Summon Guardian Golem
  31. Bolt of Magma
  32. Gell's Gravitas
  33. Ignite Poison
  34. Iskenderun's Battlesphere
  35. Silence
  36. Summon Mana Viper
  37. Bolt of Cold
  38. Death Channel
  39. Simulacrum
  40. Spellforged Servitor
  41. Borgnjor's Revivification
  42. Death's Door
  43. Necromutation
  44. Glaciate
  45. Singularity
Monsters
  1. Ignacio
  2. Lorocyproca
  3. Green death
  4. Ice devil
  5. Soul eater
  6. Neqoxec
  7. Orange demon
  8. Rust devil
  9. Red devil
  10. Iron imp
  11. Quasit
  12. Demonspawn other than "demonspawn" (which should not appear or be a valid polymorph target)
  13. Diamond obelisk
  14. Roxanne
  15. Iron golem
  16. Spellforged servitor
  17. Ice statue
  18. Obsidian statue
  19. Orange crystal statue
  20. Statue
  21. Crystal guardian
  22. Toenail golem
  23. Ushabti
  24. Guardian golem
  25. Block of ice
  26. Lightning spire
  27. War gargoyle
  28. Singularity
  29. Lost soul
  30. Battlesphere
  31. Death cob
  32. Sojobo
  33. Tengu warrior
  34. Tengu conjurer
  35. Gastronok
  36. Giant leech
  37. Torpor snail
  38. Swamp worm
  39. Worm
  40. Brian worm
  41. Shadow wraith
  42. Phantasmal warrior
  43. Silent spectre
  44. Hungry ghost
  45. Phantom
  46. Shadow
  47. Drowned soul
  48. Player ghost
  49. Fannar
  50. Deep elf knight
  51. Deep elf fighter
  52. Elemental wellspring
  53. River rat
  54. Porcupine
  55. Rakshasa
  56. Grand avatar
  57. Alligator snapping turtle
  58. Ghost crab
  59. Baby alligator
  60. Iron troll
  61. Ghost moth
  62. Queen bee
  63. Apis
  64. Death yak
  65. Sky beast
  66. The Enchantress
  67. Spriggan defender
  68. Spriggan rider
  69. Spriggan berserker
  70. Spriggan air mage
  71. Spriggan druid
  72. Urug
  73. Orc high priest
  74. Two-headed ogre
  75. Death knight
  76. Glowing shapeshifter
  77. Burning bush
  78. Ballistomycete
  79. Hyperactive ballistomycete
  80. Oklob sapling
  81. Briar patch
  82. Queen ant
  83. Soldier ant
  84. Seraph
  85. Cherub
  86. Emperor scorpion
  87. Orb spider
  88. Trapdoor spider
  89. Tarantella
  90. Redback
  91. Giant mite
  92. Shock serpent
  93. Mana viper
  94. Lava snake
  95. Bone dragon
  96. The Lernaean Hydra
  97. Xtahua
  98. Thorn hunter
  99. Shambling mangrove
  100. Deathcap
  101. Wandering mushroom
  102. Wiglaf
  103. Jorgrun
  104. Gnoll sergeant
  105. Boggart
  106. Gnoll shaman
  107. Robin
  108. Ophan
  109. Great orb of eyes
  110. Shining eye
  111. Eye of draining
  112. Giant eyeball
  113. Golden eye
  114. Hell hog
  115. Holy swine
  116. Raiju
  117. Black bear
  118. Felid
  119. Natasha
  120. Arachne
  121. Asterion
  122. Minotaur
  123. Griffon
  124. Chimera
  125. Dissolution
  126. Jelly
  127. Wind drake
  128. Lindwurm
  129. Big kobold
  130. Unborn
  131. Electric eel
  132. Murray
  133. Curse toe
  134. Curse skull
  135. Octopode crusher
  136. Unseen horror
  137. Kraken
  138. Tentacled monstrosity
  139. Thrashing horror
  140. Satyr
  141. Faun
  142. Polyphemus
  143. Ettin
  144. Cyclops
  145. Spatial maelstrom
  146. Insubstantial wisp
  147. Jory
  148. Jiangshi
  149. Bennu
  150. Raven
  151. Fire bat
  152. Vampire bat
  153. Butterfly
  154. Boulder beetle
  155. Goliath beetle
  156. Boring beetle
  157. Death scarab
  158. Vashnia
  159. Naga warrior
  160. Salamander firebrand
  161. Salamander mystic
  162. Salamander
  163. Naga ritualist
  164. Merfolk avatar
  165. Water nymph
  166. Siren
  167. Mimic, if you can still count those as monsters
  168. Frances
  169. Maud
  170. Donald
  171. Josephine
  172. Joseph
  173. Erica
  174. Maurice
  175. Edmund


you know you can just delete crawl.exe right
take it easy

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 02:16

Re: The Culling Question

I figured this topic was only created with the hope that I would post in it

also ".exe" lol

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cerebovssquire, tedric

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 02:16

Re: The Culling Question

Gods
  1. Gozag-I only played one game, but I didn't enjoy it much
  2. Ashenzari-I like it too much for too many characters, and it makes it hard for me to want to get rid of curses
Species
  1. Halfling-Why not minotaur?
  2. Deep Elf-Why not Tengu?
  3. Octopode
Backgrounds
  1. Necromancer-Let Kiku be more valuable.
  2. Fire Elementalist-there are too many elements, and fire/ice is too cliche with too little differentiation. Fire damage in general should go, along with rings.
Schools of Magic
  1. Fire
  2. Conjurations- Earth already gives irresistible damage. Raise the spell level of all multi school conj spells.
Spells
  1. Embrace-by the time there are corpses, you don't need this.
  2. Control Teleport-use consumables or slots.
  3. Throw Frost-too close to icicle.
  4. Summon Butterflies-could be a L6 spell
  5. Animate Skeleton-needs to be used in combat. Maybe like confusing touch or slimify?
Monsters
  1. Fire Giants-Already have frost giants.
  2. Sheep-Yaks and yaktaurs should combust, along with Elephant-replacing Mammoths.
  3. Mummies-just need better curses.
  4. Ironheart Preserver-rarely matters.
  5. Norris-no good reason, just needed to finish the list.

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 02:17

Re: The Culling Question

Never mind the crawl binary, he's trying to make crawl fail to compile! He cut lightning spires without removing the spell summon lightning spire!

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 02:18

Re: The Culling Question

what the fuck, you actually read all of that?

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 02:24

Re: The Culling Question

As a computer programmer gammafunk is probably skilled with the use of the 'grep' command. Very advanced I know.

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 02:39

Re: The Culling Question

No, I actually just checked the summons spells specifically because I was curious which he'd like to remove. I suspect he'd like to remove XXX as well, rather than just have it make large abominations (since he removes tmons), but I could be wrong. Leaving in abjuration but not taking out aura of abjuration was a bit of a surprise, not sure if that was an omission.

But to be quite honest, I think duvessa has given us an abridged monster/spell removal list, and I feel a little cheated.

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 02:44

Re: The Culling Question

gammafunk wrote:I suspect he'd like to remove XXX as well, rather than just have it make large abominations (since he removes tmons), but I could be wrong.
xxx is as fine as any other summon spell, I just think tmons is a dumb hostile monster

gammafunk wrote:Leaving in abjuration but not taking out aura of abjuration was a bit of a surprise, not sure if that was an omission.
it's the other way around; I honestly think abjuration should be removed and aura of abjuration should not

gammafunk wrote:But to be quite honest, I think duvessa has given us an abridged monster/spell removal list, and I feel a little cheated.
this is true, i didnt even bother to include monster/rod/etc spells

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 02:58

Re: The Culling Question

Gods
- Gozag (lame unless mu/sp)
- Beogh (only ho)
Species
- high elf (not really unique)
- ghoul (chunks don't rot anymore, not super interesting. like a troll but not)
- halfling or kobold (they're similar, one can go)
Spells
- conjure ball lightning (excessively loud and dangerous, requires open spaces, rarely worth the risk)
- shroud of golubria (meh, who bothers)
- poisonous cloud (strictly worse than freezing cloud, even found in the same book)
- leda's liquefaction (some find it useful, not me)
- tukima's dance (most useless spell in the game, if you can hex something you can enslave it which is much better)
- death's door (just use borgnjor)
- mass confusion or alistair's intoxication - one should go, they're too similar
Monsters
- keep all the monsters, they add variety
- add new monsters and branches
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 04:11

Re: The Culling Question

duvessa wrote:40. Brian worm

Spoiler: show
Image
Wins (Does not include my GrEE^Veh 15-runer...stupid experimental branch)

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Arrhythmia

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 08:47

Re: The Culling Question

The culling occurs naturally in crawl, no need to give them any ideas *cough*.

Anyway, here's my take on the matter:

Gods
1.Gozag (♫ Midas is king and he holds me so tight / And turns me to gold in the sunlight ♪
2. Ely (Take the one thing that makes something unique and remove it and this is the result...)

Species
1. Human (I can literally hear the "boos"!)
2. Demigod
3. Halfling

Backgrounds
1. Skald
2. Berserker
3. Abyssal Knight
4. Chaos Knight
5. Warper
6. Arcane Marksman

Schools of Magic
1. Charms
2. Poison

Spells
1. Disjunction
2. Dispersal
3. Gell's Gravitas
4. Teleport Other
5. Tukima's Dance
6. Song of Slaying
7. Dragon Form
8. Alistair's

Monsters
1. Water Nymph (The sexual repression of crawl must be enforced!)
2. Wiglaf (Was left out in a previous calling I dare not mention)

@duvessa: Don't take this the wrong way, but you seem to be dissatisfied with pretty much all aspects of the game in any post I ever read from you, why even bother with crawl anymore? Surely there is a game that better accomodates your needs? Forgive me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by comebackshane on Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 09:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Arrhythmia

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 09:21

Re: The Culling Question

How is it possible that nobody mentioned formicids? They are bad, nobody likes them, and they have nothing to do with the world of Crawl (There is no formicid monster in the whole game that I know of.)

Also, I would like to create a new category: "Other", and immediately nominate Shadow Traps there.

Swamp Slogger

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Joined: Saturday, 10th January 2015, 22:27

Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 10:34

Re: The Culling Question

Maybe I don't have anything in the way of online cred, since I'm usually one of those filthy offline players, but...meh. I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Gods
  1. Gozag ('golden touch' is interesting, but a lack of conduct and most abilities boil down to materials - potion, merchant, duplicate item)
  2. Kiku (Yred fits the 'dark magic/death' angle better, and it's a god based on a single magic school. Maybe merge with Yred?)
  3. Sif Muna (Conduct is so bland that you don't even think about it, amnesia/channeling/books are all available without a god)
Species
  1. HE (nothing really unique enough to make it stand out)
  2. Fe (interesting idea, but seems like troll and octopode cover its unique points better, and they avoid the 'extra lives' bit)
  3. Dg (I gather this isn't a popular opinion, but given that its only noteworthy gimmick - no god - can be done with any species...)
Backgrounds
  1. Gl (seems like it could be merged with Fi without much of a loss)
  2. As (as others have pointed out, could be subsumed into Hu with weapon 'blowgun')
Schools of Magic
  1. Poison Magic (loses relevance after midgame, since demons/mummies resist)
  2. Hexes/Charms (combine the two, as 'Enchantments,' since that covers enchantments on self, gear, and enemies)
Spells
  1. Haste (powerful/uncommon potion becomes spam-in-every-fight spell)
  2. Deflect/Repel Missiles (combine or eliminate one)
  3. Control Teleport (adds little game value, item already provides this)
  4. Throw Flame (just add a space or so of range to Flame Tongue to compensate)
  5. Confusing Touch (those who'd get a real benefit from it have a much stronger incentive to stay out of melee)
  6. Spellforged Servitor (no to 'make copies of me to cast my spells for me')
  7. Bolt of Fire (I know, I know, but just bump Bolt of Magma up a level to compensate, also helps keep Fire/Ice from being perfect mirrors)
  8. Mass Confusion (boost Alistair's, since it's a more interesting area-effect confusion spell)
  9. Summon Lightning Spire (as with players' "let me make traps" ideas, having players make stationary features is...meh)
  10. Dispersal (seems unnecessary with Disjunction around)
  11. Sticks to Snakes (remove, or expand to make it more relevant, and for longer)
  12. Cure Poison (not often used, fits better with god-magic - healing/curing - and duplicated by common potion)
Monsters
  1. Snapping Turtle/Alligator Snapping Turtle (same monster, just different toughness)
  2. Baby Alligator (just a weaker alligator)
  3. Hobgoblin (only real value is monster diversity - means more 'different' enemies on D1)
  4. Big Kobold (same as Hobgoblin)
  5. Deep Elf Conjurer (no shortage of conjuring elves, and it's what the mages do already)
  6. Deep Elf Sorcerer (its functions are served by the DE Demonologist, High Priest, Annihilator)
  7. Fire Bat (just a flavored bat)
  8. Vampire Bat (same)
  9. Komodo Dragon (basically a solo death yak)
  10. Iron Golem (by the time you encounter them, they're popcorn)
  11. Iron Troll (do we need this flavor of troll?)

Aaand that's all that comes to mind at the moment. Sleep-time now.

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 11:04

Re: The Culling Question

"Very high stats" is also characteristic of Dg and sure, you can play any species godless, but Dg allows you to play a game where that isn't an idiotic choice if you intend to win.

Sar

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 12:32

Re: The Culling Question

Gods: Gozag, Ru (I like the concept of first one but the gameplay seems lacking, like the sacrifices of the second one but everything else seems weird).

Species: Ha and maybe HE.

Backgrounds: Zealots except maybe for CK.

Magic: but I like them all... Fire and maybe Conj.

Monsters: some named Ds, elves and Sp. Also swamp worms. Kill swamp worms hard.
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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 12:56

Re: The Culling Question

Sandman25 wrote:I would quit playing.

I would play the latest uncut version instead.
DCSS: 77: ...SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDAr
HaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWr
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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 13:21

Re: The Culling Question

Sprucery wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:I would quit playing.

I would play the latest uncut version instead.


I wouldn't be able to continue playing game written by devs who went nuts. Also maybe it would help to revert the change.

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 15:53

Re: The Culling Question

Magipi wrote:How is it possible that nobody mentioned formicids? They are bad, nobody likes them, and they have nothing to do with the world of Crawl (There is no formicid monster in the whole game that I know of.)

Also, I would like to create a new category: "Other", and immediately nominate Shadow Traps there.

I like formacids, and there was a monster version, but it wasn't interesting enough, so it got clipped.
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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 16:39

Re: The Culling Question

Gods
  1. Beogh
  2. Yred
  3. Gozag, though I think Gozag's problems are more readily fixable compared to all the issues with perma-allies
Species
  1. Felid
  2. Deep Dwarf
  3. Merge HE/Ko into one thing
  4. High Elf—kind of on fence about that, could stay or go
Backgrounds
  1. Skald
  2. Necromancer (see below)
Schools of Magic
  1. Necromancy; would entail some changes to Kiku. Some Necro spells could be moved to other schools.
  2. Charms
Spells
  1. Charms
  2. Most necromancy spells
  3. Wait, cure poison still a spell?
  4. Ignite poison
  5. Mesmerize/Fear (as enemy spell for the latter)
  6. Cause Fear
  7. There are some others that aren't great but I'm mostly okay with
Monsters
  1. Spriggans
  2. Mummies that don't have jobs as "guardian" "priest" or "greater"; lose death curses
  3. All the demonspawn in Pan
  4. Remove submerge, or else remove all enemies that submerge
  5. Orb spider (probably okay if you remove its wonky AI)
  6. Stationary enemies
  7. Curse Skull
  8. Curse Toe
  9. Worm
  10. Goliath Beetle
  11. EDIT: Red Devils, too, yeah

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 17:42

Re: The Culling Question

I had also noticed that duv cut abjuration without cutting aura of abjuration, which I'd be curious to hear more about. Then again, my primary use for abjuration is to allow me to train summoning to 10 so that I can learn aura of abjuration, so I might be inclined to agree with whatever the reason is. My list:

Gods
  1. Nemelex
  2. Gozag
Species
  1. kobold
  2. high elf
  3. vampire
I was surprised how easy it was to pick these three :)

Backgrounds
  1. assassin
  2. wanderer
This was more tricky, I don't have a problem with any of the backgrounds, and wouldn't care if we had more. They don't feel like they add much "bloat" to me.

Schools of Magic
  1. summoning
  2. poison
This one was again very simple. About the only summoning spell I ever use is aura of abjuration. If removing the school meant monsters didn't summon either, then I wouldn't even need aura of abjuration. Poison is a distant second but I'd still not miss it much. Plus that would make spider form easier to cast as pure transmutations :P

Spells
  1. corpse rot
  2. death's door
  3. haste
  4. Leda's Liquefaction
  5.  Alistair's Intoxication
Monsters
  1. orb spiders
  2. red devils
  3. orb spiders
  4. red devils
  5. red devils
I don't like monsters that I can't hold down tab to make dead. Red devils are much worse than orb spiders, who at least have a cool concept, even if it's annoying and best countered by a +0 blowgun with 0 throwing skill.

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 18:29

Re: The Culling Question

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 20:22

Re: The Culling Question

Sar wrote:Ru (I like the concept of first one but the gameplay seems lacking, like the sacrifices of the second one but everything else seems weird).

. . . :'(

At least everyone wants to keep caustic shrikes.

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 20:45

Re: The Culling Question

I'm sorry!

I like a lot about the god: permanent sacrifices + no piety decay ever + drain for abilities. You can cut off your arm! This is cool. The abilities though - you get a passive Recite-but-better, you get CBlink-but-better (I won a game with Ru and I didn't even realise you can aim it not on monsters!), you get Slouch-but-better (or Apocalypse-but-better, if you wish). I don't really feel like they have a coherent theme, and the favour feels tackled on at best and questionable at worst. You reveal some Lovcraftian great truth to a pack of bees and an ooze and they all die from the revelation? Seems silly even by Crawl standards. I know criticism is cheap, but I can't offer any solution.

And "Ru" is a silly name.

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 21:20

Re: The Culling Question

Yeah I don't feel Ru's abilities really coherent or thematic but they're cool to use so I'm okay with that . And passive effects are so good for me from every point of view
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Wednesday, 11th March 2015, 22:44

Re: The Culling Question

Lasty wrote:
Sar wrote:Ru (I like the concept of first one but the gameplay seems lacking, like the sacrifices of the second one but everything else seems weird).

. . . :'(

At least everyone wants to keep caustic shrikes.
You got to be stronger :) It is impossible to satisfy everyone: if you expose yourself and present something to the public (as you did), it's inevitable that some will find it lackluster or even outright horrible. This is why games are not made by concensus! The crucial question is if *you* like playing Ru -- if you do, you can be assured that you are not alone and others like it, too.

Given the nature of this thread, we only hear about shortcomings and not much about good things. Gozag is pretty much my brainchild and nobody seems to like the gold god. However, I really know what I want with the god and while it's not perfect, the deity can get where it should. Two other points of comparison: Fedhas and Ashenzari drew a lot of criticism when they were young, now they seem to be generally accepted. People in this forum love to trash Beogh, but I know for sure that Beogh is a great gateway for bonding players.

We need more content from you, not less! Ru flavour is excellent, and mechanics can be improved with time. Nothing to worry about.

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Post Thursday, 12th March 2015, 00:40

Re: The Culling Question

dpeg wrote:Ashenzari ... generally accepted.

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Post Thursday, 12th March 2015, 00:43

Re: The Culling Question

duvessa wrote:
dpeg wrote:Ashenzari ... generally accepted.

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Post Thursday, 12th March 2015, 00:44

Re: The Culling Question

dpeg wrote:We need more content from you, not less! Ru flavour is excellent, and mechanics can be improved with time. Nothing to worry about.


Agreed on everything before this quote, and the more content part as well. I think it's the other way around with flavor/mechanics, though. Ru's flavor is kind of strange and doesn't really relate to most of the rest of crawl, but the mechanics are awesome and it's one of my favorite gods. I mean, you'll never beat Chei, but Ru's as close as you can get ;) I voted to cut Gozag, but to be fair, I haven't really invested in actually learning Gozag/getting a win with it yet, so to be fair, it's a fairly uninformed opinion.

Also, Ru has led to several awesome .16 clan names, such as "Ru Mad Bro" and "RU Afraid of the Dark - The Tale of the Hacked-Off Hand". Or take it another way and go with "AWBW - Ru-Tang is for the Children". I'm sure there will be others as more clans sign up, clan names have always been pretty creative in the tournaments I've seen...

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Post Thursday, 12th March 2015, 00:48

Re: The Culling Question

Know people are going to laugh at me for this, but...

duvessa's a guy?!?

What?
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Post Thursday, 12th March 2015, 00:51

Re: The Culling Question

tasonir wrote:
dpeg wrote:We need more content from you, not less! Ru flavour is excellent, and mechanics can be improved with time. Nothing to worry about.


Agreed on everything before this quote, and the more content part as well. I think it's the other way around with flavor/mechanics, though. Ru's flavor is kind of strange and doesn't really relate to most of the rest of crawl, but the mechanics are awesome and it's one of my favorite gods. I mean, you'll never beat Chei, but Ru's as close as you can get ;) I voted to cut Gozag, but to be fair, I haven't really invested in actually learning Gozag/getting a win with it yet, so to be fair, it's a fairly uninformed opinion.

Also, Ru has led to several awesome .16 clan names, such as "Ru Mad Bro" and "RU Afraid of the Dark - The Tale of the Hacked-Off Hand". Or take it another way and go with "AWBW - Ru-Tang is for the Children". I'm sure there will be others as more clans sign up, clan names have always been pretty creative in the tournaments I've seen...
You would be always right with what you say, and I haven't be as precise as I could: of course, gameplay trumps flavour. Also, flavour is cheap and can be amended to whatever is necessary.

So what I really meant when saying that about Ru (and it's just a statement about Ru) is this: 1. Ru works as a god right now (i.e. the conduct is clear enough, as are the rewards, the god changes what's going on in your game, as a god should, and powers are strong enough to be noticeable). 2. The connection between powers and flavour is perhaps not as strong as possible (I'd think that the powers are more generic than necessary) but my point is that the flavour is so strong that it will allow us to improve that part over time -- for example by modifying powers slightly, or perhaps just some wording.

As an example, I believe that Trog's flavour got stronger by each of the following steps: Might removed (leaving Rage as the only offensive power boost), shifting gifts towards more damage and anti-magic, burning books. Neither of these is crucial for the god (though it's good that Might is no more a god power), but they help with the theme-gameplay interaction. This was a long process, and Ru is very young, a mere god child :)
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Post Thursday, 12th March 2015, 01:30

Re: The Culling Question

Dpeg and Lasty, I wasn't intending this thread to needlessly criticize people's projects. However, I feel that Crawl is like an ever-expanding collage put together by some blessedly creative people. But, as it develops, some features of Crawl fit less well than they did before, and some don't fit well yet, and more importantly, these things take up space that could be used by better fitting features. It seems like most of the more recent content is designed around Not Stepping on Feature X's Toes. For example, I think Ru's sacrifices are fantastic and but the abilities, while powerful and fun in isolation, feel uncoordinated. If Makhleb were cut, that would free up space for Ru, right?

(Also, since Dpeg suggested removing the Haste spell, I've been wondering more and more if Crawl would be better without Charms, at least, as they currently exist.)
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Post Thursday, 12th March 2015, 01:38

Re: The Culling Question

treerex5 wrote:Know people are going to laugh at me for this, but...

duvessa's a guy?!?

What?
minmay wrote:When I was like 7 and was first introduced to Sonic the Hedgehog I would constantly fantasize about being Tails in real life, because I thought it would be so cool to be able to fly and fix airplanes and machines and stuff. Plus sometimes foxes would come by my house and I thought they were really cool and always wanted to leave meat out for them and stuff. But I also decided I was too heavy to fly, so instead, whenever my parents weren't in the room I would jump and try to glide like Knuckles, because that would still be pretty cool and I figured Knuckles must be about as heavy as me because he could punch through walls and stuff. But I could never get the hang of it and I was too scared to try jumping down the stairwell to get more air time.

I've never fantasized about being Duvessa though, that would be weird. I originally made this account to post this and made a few more relevant posts when people mentioned Duvessa in certain contexts, then it became my main account when "minmay" was deleted.

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Post Thursday, 12th March 2015, 01:39

Re: The Culling Question

dolphin: Oh, I don't mind the thread. It *is* interesting to see what players think on the matter. However, it is important to realise that even if you don't like a feature, it can still be good for something. This is not the dreaded "if you don't like it, then don't do it" argument!

For example, species, backgrounds and god are independent of each other, and while it is bad to increase their numbers, in principle more do no harm. Of course, you have witnessed removals of species and backgrounds, when we thought they weren't sufficiently distinguished (a notion that also changes with time... I believe the metric for species distinction has become coarser over the years). It's true that no god has ever been removed (one god came close), but gods are a bit better protected, since you don't see them when starting a game. So the list of gods can only overwhelm a new player when she is reaching the Temple for the first time, whereas the long lists of species or backgrounds can scare away people before they have started.

This point does not hold for monsters, spells, branches, items -- content that can come up in every game. While it is true that at large more gets added than removed (for reasons I explained elsewhere), things do get cut. PleasingFungus recently pointed out that the net gain in new monsters is much smaller than often bemoaned on these pages. Also, it is one thing to scream "off with their heads" all the time, but something very different to come up with good monster designs. In general, it's hard to say whether a new monster will work or not. So it's great when someone steps up and implements a new idea. Time and testing will tell if it is good enough to keep, or even to spread the gimmick to other monsters, or whether it's better culled.

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Post Thursday, 12th March 2015, 03:36

Re: The Culling Question

Can I remove Gozag twice?

Actually I'd probably go for Gozag and Qazlal either way since in addition to personally hating the way Q noise changes the game the clouds in general just promote some bad things (walk around to kill any melee monster for free, how fun) that aren't really fixable without a big rework.

idk about races, definitely dd/fe and I don't actually play anything but humans so idk about any others

monk and warper backgrounds

the way charms are implemented in crawl is generally bad but at least the spells in it make sense, necromancy has a weird mix of random effects for not a lot of reason plus some effects are problematic (permanent allies) so it could use a redoing, though a lot of the non-ally spells are fun

not going to bother answering the rest since like minmay I'd probably have a lot of spells and monsters (probably not as many spells) and I don't want to figure out a list

I'd probably remove fcloud over pcloud because yes they're pretty redundant and while yes fcloud is better I think pcloud has a better spot within poison magic than fcloud does within ice magic (alternatively you could get rid of both since they do cause some problems but there are ways to fix them) and that's the most important consideration to look at when deciding which one to remove

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