Give Dg rMut

[kroki]

I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for Dg to have innate rMut to go with their SustAb. Not too great, niche and i think it fits the flavour perfectly.

[Sandman25]

I would not call rMut not too great provided Dg cannot join Zin/Jiyva.
I hope Dg will not end with rMut/rRot/Clarity/rHellfire/rTorment

[n1000]

rMut is boring and halflings already have some mutation resistance. However, I agree, it would not be unreasonable. It is also not a good idea.

[wheals]

Rename them Godlings? Halfgods?

[nicolae]

Rename them Godlings? Halfgods?

Dalflods.

[Berder]

Going off on a tangent here - rMut is something Zin can give you. What if demigods acquired random god abilities that they can use for themselves, as they level up? That could be pretty fun. They could gain piety (with themselves) by killing monsters, and be able to train invocations. Abilities could be passive (like umbra) as well as active (like imprison). Each random ability the demigod gets might have a "type" (good, evil, chaotic, or antimagic in case of a trog ability) and from there on they can't get abilities from an opposing type.

[duvessa]

I'm pretty sure the point of demigods is that they don't worship a god

[Berder]

The other point is that they themselves are part god.

[xentronium]

Rename them Godlings? Halfgods?

Dalflods.

Daffodils.

[basil]

The other point is that they themselves are part god.

That's the flavour of Dg, not their point or purpose.

[Giant Orange Brainbow Dash]

Did dpeg ever make any more progress on that wacky demigod Build-A-Worshiper-Base-Through-Bitchin'-Arena-Combat mod?

[Berder]

The other point is that they themselves are part god.

That's the flavour of Dg, not their point or purpose.

Well, why not rename Demigod to something else that fits with atheism (planeswalker? watcher? Deep One? Forsaken? Moonfolk? Lurbian?), and introduce a new Demigod race that can worship itself. That's not a fatal problem. The real question to ask yourself is whether a race that can get random god abilities as they level up would be interesting - and based on the success of demonspawn and draconians who get random mutations as they level up, which is similar, I think it would be.

[Sar]

None of the names you suggested is better. Furthermore, the real question is, is a race that cannot worship gods at all interesting, and for many people the answer is yes. Demogods role is unqiue and making them play more as Dr/Ds (as you yourself mentioned!) would make them less unique!

[Berder]

None of the names you suggested is better.

It doesn't have to be better, it just has to make room for a new race to be called demigod (because what else would you call a race that can worship itself?)

Furthermore, the real question is, is a race that cannot worship gods at all interesting, and for many people the answer is yes. Demogods role is unqiue and making them play more as Dr/Ds (as you yourself mentioned!) would make them less unique!

You say this as if I hadn't just suggested keeping demigods around under a different name. So you wouldn't lose anything and the race that can't worship gods would stick around.

The playstyle would be significantly different from Dr/Ds since the things they get as they level up would be different, and it would work under the piety system. Maybe one playthrough you get mak healing and sunlight, another time it's spellbook gifts, deal four ability, and umbra. A system would have to be arranged to make sure the abilities are fair and you don't get amazing ones one game and total junk the next.

[Sar]

Okay, I guess I didn't understand your post then.

[XuaXua]

There is a thread for renaming Demigod: Bikeshedding Demigod.

There is also a thread for making Demigod a class: Make demigod a class instead of a race....

The issues that constantly crop up are twofold, and are directly due to the name "Demigod".

• The name implies that one is god-like and could potentially inherit abilities or is otherwise looked upon by the gods. This is not true with a "Crawl Demigod".
• The other issue is that while all "Crawl Demigods" are conceivably "half-Human, half-divine", one could alternately conceive it to be a "half-any-other-race, half-divine". Much like if you added psychic abilities to the game, conceptually, demigod could be generically racially applicable.

The simplest solution would be to rename demigod and change the background to imply that it is a distinct race. Then we'd stop having these threads where people debate the nature of the "Crawl Demigod race".

One proposal I made, which "solves" both of these issues, is to rename it as follows:

Rename "Demigod" to "Disgraced". This name both maintains the "Dg" and implies the "cannot worship a deity" mechanic that "Demigod" does not.

Obligatory Background:
The Disgraced were once a human clan who worshiped a singular deity. This deity was eradicated when it transgressed against the other deities. The worshipers absorbed their destroyed deity's divine powers, enhancing their natural abilities {explaining the attributes} to such an extent that reliance on learned trades atrophied {explaining the low skills}, but cursing their descendant bloodlines from being able to worship any other deity {explaining the inability to worship others}.

Obligatory Rationale:
There. NO MECHANICS ARE CHANGED. We maintain the abbreviated name scheme (Dg), and the background explains how they (1) can't worship (2) have enhanced attributes (3) have lamed skills, and (4) eliminates any "Can I inherit from my parent god?" questions and (5) curbs the "Why can't I be a Centaur/Vampire/Spriggan Demigod?" questions. It also (6) maintains that they are part-god.

[Berder]

Disgraced sounds like a good alternative name to me.

[Lasty]

XuaXua, thanks for linking to some of the previous iterations of this suggestion. I, of course, still am absolutely opposed to renaming or giving new mechanics to demigods, because a) they are a fine species mechanically as-is, and 2) the only "problem" is that a few people think that something called "demigod" would be more cool if it were a holy demonspawn instead. I've posted before on why I think demigod is an apt name for the species as it stands, so I won't repeat myself on that point. I haven't yet heard any name or lore that seems more interesting or compelling.

[XuaXua]

XuaXua, thanks for linking to some of the previous iterations of this suggestion.

Those are the most recent; I know that there are other iterations. This is the newest iteration and IMHO it won't be the last until demigod is renamed.

I, of course, still am absolutely opposed to renaming or giving new mechanics to demigods, because a) they are a fine species mechanically as-is, and 2) the only "problem" is that a few people think that something called "demigod" would be more cool if it were a holy demonspawn instead. I've posted before on why I think demigod is an apt name for the species as it stands, so I won't repeat myself on that point. I haven't yet heard any name or lore that seems more interesting or compelling.

At this point, I've accepted what a "Crawl Demigod" is; my suggestion to rename is simply to help those who {have not | do not | new gamers} to help increase clarity while maintaining consistency along the lines of the Crawl Philosophy.

People would be less-inclined to want to change demigod from what it is to a "holy demonspawn" if the name didn't imply some sort of otherwise divine connection, and "traditional" interpretations of demigods weren't so different from the "Crawl Demigod".

We don't see this issue crop up with any other race except human, and that's only because those are the "plain" race.

[Sar]

People regularly complain about ogres being glass cannons (not necessarily true) and mummies being shit.

Edit: also about Vp/Gh/Ds/Mu not being modifiers to existing races.

[XuaXua]

People regularly complain about ogres being glass cannons (not necessarily true) and mummies being shit.

But no one comes out and says that there should be a mechanic where an ogre eats a target, or a mummy can entangle with its wrappings.

Granted, I did at one time debate how a mummy can use a blowgun...

Edit: also about Vp/Gh/Ds/Mu not being modifiers to existing races.

Same for Dg. Perhaps some renaming to imply they are their own races, or changing the background "lore" a bit to explain they were once humans, could help.

[Sar]

I've seen a suggested mechanic to make mummies randomly "remember" their past lives in forms of random apt buffs or random skill buffs.

As for ogres, people usually just suggest "making them tankier".

[XuaXua]

SOLVING VAMPIRES:

  Code:

Vampires
  Vampires are another form of undead, but with a peculiarity: by consuming
  fresh blood, they may become alive. A bloodless Vampire has all the traits of
  an undead, but cannot regain lost physical attributes or regenerate from
  wounds over time - in particular, magical items or spells which increase the
  rate of regeneration will not work (though divine ones will). On the other
  hand, a Vampire full with blood will regenerate very quickly, but lose all
  undead powers. Vampires can never starve. They can drink from fresh corpses
  with the 'e' command. Upon growing, they learn to transform into quick bats
  and, later, how to draw potions of blood from fresh corpses.


could become

  Code:

Vampires
  Vampires are a peculiar form of undead reborn from Humans: by consuming
  fresh blood, they may become alive. A bloodless Vampire has all the traits of
  an undead, but cannot regain lost physical attributes or regenerate from
  wounds over time - in particular, magical items or spells which increase the
  rate of regeneration will not work (though divine ones will). On the other
  hand, a Vampire full with blood will regenerate very quickly, but lose all
  undead powers. Vampires can never starve. They can drink from fresh corpses
  with the 'e' command. Upon growing, they learn to transform into quick bats
  and, later, how to draw potions of blood from fresh corpses.


[XuaXua]

I've seen a suggested mechanic to make mummies randomly "remember" their past lives in forms of random apt buffs or random skill buffs.

This can be "Fixed" with a few choice words in the description. The first sentence of the current description (below) implies a recollection of the past.

  Code:

Mummies
  These are undead creatures who travel into the depths in search of revenge,
  redemption, or just because they want to.

  Mummies progress slowly in levels, half again as slowly as Humans in all
  skills except fighting, spellcasting and necromancy. As they increase in
  levels, they become increasingly in touch with the powers of death, but cannot
  use some types of necromancy which only affect living creatures. The side
  effects of necromantic magic tend to be relatively harmless to Mummies.
  However, their desiccated bodies are highly flammable. They also do not need
  to eat or drink and, in any case, are incapable of doing so.


[crate]

i suggested this in irc, but the clear solution is to just swap the name of the "demigod" and "demonspawn" species

demigods get all kinds of weird funky mutations from their divine heritage ... i dont have a reason for tso or ely to hate them (you can surely invent one) but zin hate is there
demonspawn are hated by all gods because ewwww they're demons (for makhleb and such you apply the same logic that is currently applied for gods hating dg)

!!

[Pereza0]

Eh...

I dislike it personally.

I always imagine Demigod's as Disney's Hercules (all of my knowledge of Greek mithology stems from there), just like humans but better.

I don't see how physical mutations represent Divine heritage either, Gods are not necessarily physical beings. Demigods properties were a bit more subtle than having horns and resistance to fire.

It also don't see how it make sense for Makh to hate demonspawn. Makh is a god, not a demon, why would having a half-demon worshipper bother him?

Also, suddenly having Pandemonium filled with Demigods (yes, apparently having divine heritage is pretty common around these places) sounds weird.

[Sar]

(I think it was a joke?)

[Pereza0]

Probably is.

This forum has changed me, I can't tell when people are being facetiously or genuinely silly anymore

[crate]

It's not really a serious suggestion because it suggests changing names for no real reason (except crawl actually has done this in the past: see honeycomb). But it's less silly than literally making demigod into the opposite of what demigod is supposed to be, which is a much more common suggestion.

[XuaXua]

But it's less silly than literally making demigod into the opposite of what demigod is supposed to be, which is a much more common suggestion.

Which only comes up (more than twice) because they're named "Demigod", which is a situation that can either be ignored or resolved through bikeshedding.

[PleasingFungus]

imho just shuffle all races' names at random and come up with new flavor justifications for each

a fun exercise imho. try it at home!

[PleasingFungus]

halflings are half-fish, half-man. merfolk were brutally mer-dered and are now cursed to devour the flesh of the living. ghouls have a ghoulish appetite for mutagenic meat, and as a result have acquired partial immunity to it (and shrunk in the process). etc

[duvessa]

kenku

[Arrhythmia]

imho just shuffle all races' names at random and come up with new flavor justifications for each

a fun exercise imho. try it at home!

i tried to do this but everything came out "MOUNTAIN DWARF"

[nicolae]

imho just shuffle all races' names at random and come up with new flavor justifications for each

a fun exercise imho. try it at home!

in the far flung future of crawl, humans have evolved entirely new body plans with eight tentacles

[XuaXua]

kenku

kerkellkum.

[johlstei]

Rename felids to "mountain dwarves"

[tasonir]

Rename felids to "mountain dwarves"

Give these "mountain dwarves" +4 armor aptitude. They still cannot equip armor.

[all before]

what else would you call a race that can worship itself?

humanity?