Lets just remove felid already

[Glenstorm]

I'd like to be a greatplayer someday.

[Sandman25]

I am not sure why you don't want to ask some advise instead. Fe is not that hard and can be quite enjoyable.

[Lasty]

I am not sure why you don't want to ask some advise instead. Fe is not that hard and can be quite enjoyable.

I agree with one half of that second sentence.

[XuaXua]

I am not sure why you don't want to ask some advise instead. Fe is not that hard and can be quite enjoyable.

I agree with one half of that second sentence.

Fe are quite enjoyable when paired with a nice merlot.

[dornbeast]

Fe are quite enjoyable when paired with a nice merlot.

What race goes with Chianti?

[XuaXua]

Fe are quite enjoyable when paired with a nice merlot.

What race goes with Chianti?

Hu, with a side of fava beans.

[Magipi]

Fe is not that hard and can be quite enjoyable.

Quite enjoyable, if you enjoy being one shot away from death all the time.
The "not that hard" part maybe comes from another universe.

[cerebovssquire]

How are felids hard? You have good UC, decents apts and more importantly speed, fantastic EV and extra lives. There is no way that the low HP/AC and limited equipment (you can even zap wands now, so this became less of a penalty) are so bad that they outweigh the fact that you can repeatedly die and still win.

[and into]

The great irony of Felids (and often DD), is that you want to die, but it doesn't happen easily.

[Magipi]

The great irony of Felids (and often DD), is that you want to die, but it doesn't happen easily.

That sentence is amusing of course, but my experience is different. With felids often the average monsters are deadly. Say, an orc warrior in Orc, I have killed a dozen of them already, and now BAM! he lands a lucky hit, I am at 30% HP, and have to run away (if I can). This constant running away from almost-popcorn monsters is frustrating and frequently deadly.

Another thing: felids seem to hit the wall quite often in the midgame. There are frequently no safe options after Orc, all Lair branches are too dangerous. And after that, Vaults are even more deadly, and Depths are even more so.

(And the same is also true for octopodes, who are like felids but worse.)

[crate]

octopodes are like felid but good design

if felids aren't going to be removed I think they should at least go back to not being able to use wands, but I seem to be alone there

[tasonir]

I don't really feel like wands are that big of a difference, but either way, I find felids to be very fun once you learn a transmutation that gives you some ac. Not going transmutations is a terrible, terrible choice. I came fairly close to placing on the top AC/EV scoreboard in .15 tournament with a felid. Being off by 11 points probably put me from 3rd to 50th, but hey, it was pretty high. (http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 155739.txt)

Fe/Op are all about playing carefully until you have some method of mitigating the lack of armor. You're supposed to do that by being a better player, but I'm lazy so I do statue form.

I suppose "casters" could use ozo's armor or something but I rarely play "casters".

[Sandman25]

if felids aren't going to be removed I think they should at least go back to not being able to use wands, but I seem to be alone there

Why would you want to do that? To make them harder? Players can avoid using wands if they want, it's even reported in morgue file. I would rather remove innate abilities like rElec or +20 AC on Gr, there is no way for player to play Gr without them.

[Glenstorm]

I find felids to be very fun once you learn a transmutation that gives you some ac. Not going transmutations is a terrible, terrible choice.

I can 100% get behind the idea that the most fun way to play felid is to magic away being a felid.

[Sprucery]

I say this again: FeBe is very good.

[Siegurt]

Also FeEn is damn good in trunk now.

[crate]

if felids aren't going to be removed I think they should at least go back to not being able to use wands, but I seem to be alone there

Why would you want to do that? To make them harder? Players can avoid using wands if they want, it's even reported in morgue file. I would rather remove innate abilities like rElec or +20 AC on Gr, there is no way for player to play Gr without them.

Felids with wands are pretty much just spriggans that can live multiple times. Do you support giving felids weapons too? How about armour? They were somewhat more different when they couldn't use wands.
It's a purely design-oriented concern that has nothing to do with power level.

[WalkerBoh]

Is it possible to thank a post more than once?

[Sandman25]

Felids with wands are pretty much just spriggans that can live multiple times. Do you support giving felids weapons too? How about armour? They were somewhat more different when they couldn't use wands.
It's a purely design-oriented concern that has nothing to do with power level.

Felids have much lower speed than spriggans, slightly less HP, cannot use any weapons, throw anything, have multiple lives, cannot have decent AC without transmutations, of course you know it all so I don't see how they are more similar to spriggan than any normal size race to each other. As far as I remember you stopped playing species with HP penalty, I guess you want to remove Sp as well so similarity between the two is not main reason, right?

[Sandman25]

The great irony of Felids (and often DD), is that you want to die, but it doesn't happen easily.

I had 7 Fe who reached Lair, all 7 won and I enjoyed all of them. What am I doing wrong?

[bel]

Slightly tangential to this post, but according to this, FeBe is one of the top 20 easiest combos to win (better than HOBe!).

[crate]

I just don't understand why felids were changed to be more similar to other existing races. Demonspawn aren't going to lose their mutations, octopodes aren't going to get more armour slots (well I hope not), etc. But felids get fewer equipment restrictions?

[bel]

I just don't understand why felids were changed to be more similar to other existing races. Demonspawn aren't going to lose their mutations, octopodes aren't going to get more armour slots (well I hope not), etc. But felids get fewer equipment restrictions?

Also, it seems that the jump-attack ability has been removed, so they're even closer to Spriggans now.

[twelwe]

early in dc:pt development i had to make a rough decision to cut spriggans. anyone could see they would be missing out on most of the 19 pizza toppings and thus the benefits and mutations that came from them. and though later added back in as a challenge race it ultimately came down to tossing them or the herbovore mutation and the mutation won for reasons of interesting decisions. we (i) (but now we) learned something that day about race in this world. aside from some zombies, ghosts and animals everyone can eat pizza and most allies demand it. a race that could only feed others pizza didn`t belong and always starved so i just fuckin deleted them man. i feel the same way about felids is all

[Sprucery]

I just don't understand why felids were changed to be more similar to other existing races. Demonspawn aren't going to lose their mutations, octopodes aren't going to get more armour slots (well I hope not), etc. But felids get fewer equipment restrictions?

I guess the devs thought that the initial equipment restrictions for felids were too harsh.

But I agree, felids should go back to not being able to use wands.

[MrRokkomies]

I just leave this here:

[kroki]

But I agree, felids should go back to not being able to use wands.

how many felids did you win before they could use wands, or at all?

[Sprucery]

how many felids did you win before they could use wands, or at all?

None. I played one FeBe without wands, got 5 runes, cleared Zot:1 - 4 and half of Zot:5 then died on Dis:7.

[Sar]

how many felids did you win before they could use wands, or at all?

I wonder* why you didn't address this question to crate.

*I actually don't.

[johlstei]

Making races easier or harder to win is not very important compared to making them fill a distinct part of the design space. To me "felids without wands would be hard to win with" is a non-issue.

[Siegurt]

Indeed the question is "are felids more interesting as a racial choice with or without wands"

Personally I find felids too one-note without wands, I think even if it does make them less distinct from spriggans, it makes them a more interesting race to play. I would also be just as fine with re removing the wands and adding something else to give them additional flexibility (I found that jump attacking, for all its flaws, made felids interesting too, I don't suggest re introducing it, but I feel like with neither I would probably not want to ever play felids, out of sheer boredom not for power reasons)

[tasonir]

I'd give up wands in a heartbeat if I could get jump attack back.

[Magipi]

I'd give up wands in a heartbeat if I could get jump attack back.

The best option: get back the jump attack and keep wands - play 0.15.

[johlstei]

Getting rid of them using wands means they either can't dig without dragging a monster around, or a workaround needs to be made. Not the end of the world but worth mentioning.

[Glenstorm]

Indeed the question is "are felids more interesting as a racial choice with or without wands"

Personally I find felids too one-note without wands, I think even if it does make them less distinct from spriggans, it makes them a more interesting race to play. I would also be just as fine with re removing the wands and adding something else to give them additional flexibility (I found that jump attacking, for all its flaws, made felids interesting too, I don't suggest re introducing it, but I feel like with neither I would probably not want to ever play felids, out of sheer boredom not for power reasons)

I feel this is symptomatic of the problems with felid. Extra lives are really really powerful, so the compensation was to take away access to most resources. The problem is, crawl is at its heart a game about managing resources and fighting monsters, so felids lose out on a huge part of what crawl gameplay is. Adding resources back makes the felid more fun by bringing back that side of the game, but takes away from what felid is and makes it into more of a spriggan. Tangentially, healer got cut from the game because removing the fighting monsters half of the game wasn't fun, though I'm not sure that's really relevant to this discussion.

As an aside, jump attack was my favorite felid feature last I played one.

[Sprucery]

Getting rid of them using wands means they either can't dig without dragging a monster around, or a workaround needs to be made. Not the end of the world but worth mentioning.

No need for a workaround, imo. Digging is by no means obligatory. Not being able to zap heal wounds, hasting or attack wands felt much more challenging in my experience.

[johlstei]

Getting rid of them using wands means they either can't dig without dragging a monster around, or a workaround needs to be made. Not the end of the world but worth mentioning.

No need for a workaround, imo. Digging is by no means obligatory. Not being able to zap heal wounds, hasting or attack wands felt much more challenging in my experience.

Yeah with the existence of Ru sac evocations, I think it's just fine. (I was only thinking of getting the slimy rune honestly.) I worded my post weirdly, I intended for "ignore the issue" to be one possible option.

[tasonir]

I just leave this here:

Feature request: Felid barding, is a body armor that covers all other slots (think Lear's hauberk). Huge AC and low encumbrance because they're giving up all their other slots like boots/gloves/helmet to use it! They need to be compensated for those helmets they can no longer use! They can still use cloaks and shields of course, like Lear's allows.

[MrRokkomies]

Ok, remove felids as a race, make them a god. Because you know, cats.