Scroll of Brand Accessory

[wisp412]

A while back I read somewhere for an idea of branding armour, but I think there are alot of problems with that, unless, maybe you go with the idea of changing scrolls of Brand Weapon, into scrolls of Branding. So would being able to change the brand on random jewelry, random evocables, and random armour slots (boots, gloves, hat, cloak) be interesting enough to add or change a scroll?

I think it is because branded armour slots are really rare, because there are bad, or really niche armor slot brands, and because this does more than just brand your extra slots, it also can be used to brand wands, rechargeable envocables, and weird things like decks, heck we could go all the way and let you brand ammo! I think this has enough uses to warrant another scroll to find, or if thats really a problem, to improving a current scroll that is useless for over 50% of character types (those that don't use weapons, and those that have a good brand already). This changes a really niche scroll into a scroll that is useful for every character, regardless of class, playstyle, or current finds. We could also go one step further and let this brand books, potions, and, other scrolls, thus changing the book into a new book and changing a max of 5 consumables of a stack into other consumables (all different). This might make it better than scrolls of acquirement so maybe thats going to far..

I also think that the majority of the uses listed above are interesting, and add enough new potential decisions to make it worth adding or changing a scroll. Thoughts?

Edit: I just wanted to say that if Scrolls of Branding become a thing, they can not brand Dragon Armour, or if they could, theres 33% chance its negative, 33% positive, or 33% of both a negative and positive brand. Because making a max enchantment, dual resistance piece of body armour from scratch is kind of dumb and overpowered if theres no risk involved. Although, that does make me think that when you brand an already branded something, that there should be a 33% chance of keeping the previous brand and making a dual branded thing.

[starhawk]

I was thinking earlier today that a branding scroll that could re-roll the numeric bonus on a branded piece of jewelry could be fun as a very rare item. For instance, a ring of protection +1 or strength +1 is not worth your time unless you are an octopode...

Something like what you're describing might make branding scrolls a more interesting choice -- do you brand a weapon, or do you hope to roll a useful brand on those boots you've enchanted to +2?

[crate]

wait is this serious?
i assumed this was in cyc because it's a joke post but now i am less sure

[wisp412]

wait is this serious?
i assumed this was in cyc because it's a joke post but now i am less sure

I'm feeling really, really inspired lately, and I don't want to clutter the developer's room with all my strange ideas. So keeping it in Yiufs makes me feel less nervous about posting ideas. I can keep future "serious" ideas in the dev room if you want.

Edit: In all honesty though, there are alot of good ideas in Yiufs. Just look at the Transformation Jewelry thread! That has the potential to make entirely new character builds and playstyles possible!

[jejorda2]

Boot brands are too good for a scroll of brand auxillary armour to exist. Cloak, hat, and robe brands are pretty strong, too, even when they mainly free up a ring slot.

Turning a -2 Int ring into a +4 Int ring would be a nice use of a scroll, though. But there are usually better rings than stat rings by the time you have a rare scroll and a bad stat or defense ring.

And I guess you wouldn't really agonize over "Should I risk losing my +2 Int, or just improve my +2 Dex ring?" because there are only so many ring slots, so you probably won't use the product of the scroll in the first place unless you're an octopode.

[Sar]

I think the scroll of brand weapon as it exists now is a pretty cool thing and I think it has its place for multiple reasons. Firstly, you probably have one weapon. You invest enchant armour scrolls into it, you work on your skills. Unless you have the worst brand, applying ?bw is a gamble - you can get something great, something that is barely an upgrade or just something strictly worse. The scrolls you propose would just encourage hoarding aux armour and gamble for better auxes (note that there is not much aux brands) - if you get an undesirable ego you don't really lose anything. Same with rerolling badly enchanted AC/EV/stat rings.

I just don't see it working, sorry.

[wisp412]

Boot brands are too good for a scroll of brand auxillary armour to exist. Cloak, hat, and robe brands are pretty strong, too, even when they mainly free up a ring slot.

Turning a -2 Int ring into a +4 Int ring would be a nice use of a scroll, though. But there are usually better rings than stat rings by the time you have a rare scroll and a bad stat or defense ring.

And I guess you wouldn't really agonize over "Should I risk losing my +2 Int, or just improve my +2 Dex ring?" because there are only so many ring slots, so you probably won't use the product of the scroll in the first place unless you're an octopode.

This is fixable by both making more brands for aux armour, and making branded aux armor more common to compensate.

I think the scroll of brand weapon as it exists now is a pretty cool thing and I think it has its place for multiple reasons. Firstly, you probably have one weapon. You invest enchant armour scrolls into it, you work on your skills. Unless you have the worst brand, applying ?bw is a gamble - you can get something great, something that is barely an upgrade or just something strictly worse. The scrolls you propose would just encourage hoarding aux armour and gamble for better auxes (note that there is not much aux brands) - if you get an undesirable ego you don't really lose anything. Same with rerolling badly enchanted AC/EV/stat rings.

I just don't see it working, sorry.

If you wasted the scroll on your aux armour, then you miss a chance to brand anything else. Its an interesting choice because you can use it to brand three wildly different things with the scrolls. So do you roll for a better weapon? Better armour? Or better evocables? If you miss it usually doesn't matter right now anyways, and personally, I use scrolls of Brand Weapon on random +x weapons of the same category, and not my main weapon. So theres no risk involved currently either, unless you choose to make it a risk.

Ideally, you would want to use these on wands or evocables that you don't like for a chance to get something better, I think its really unlikely that the primary use for these would be for branding equipment given the popularity of evocables. Everyone seems to love acquirement just for the chance of getting a good wand going by some forum posts.

[grisamentum]

More armor brands isn't a bad idea, especially if it meant the possibility of burning more scrolls of remove curse. Things like boots/gloves of fumbling, ponderous/noisy on boots, etc. Right now you auto-equip every runed boots you find, right? I mean why wouldn't you?

If there were more aux armor brands, then scrolls of branding (ie targets weapons and armor alike) would make sense.

[dornbeast]

More armor brands isn't a bad idea, especially if it meant the possibility of burning more scrolls of remove curse. Things like boots/gloves of fumbling, ponderous/noisy on boots, etc. Right now you auto-equip every runed boots you find, right? I mean why wouldn't you?

If there were more aux armor brands, then scrolls of branding (ie targets weapons and armor alike) would make sense.

(So Not Serious)
Boots of Kicking: functionally equivalent to Hooves 1.
Boots Made For Walking: Can be evoked to trample an adjacent opponent. Possible cooldown timer.
Boots of Dancing: May cause player to dance, reducing evasion to 0. Higher risk of triggering if equipped with Singing Sword.

[jejorda2]

This is CYC, right?
Hat of Whistling: Makes shouts into a beam targeted noise generator so you can awaken or attract targeted enemies.
Hat of Peering: Activate to move you to the next space, update the screen, then get you a prompt to decide whether you really want to move there before anything else gets an action. Takes up time of one movement either way.

[eharper256]

Boots of kicking would actually be awesome for unarmed characters.

Anyway, since we're cyc'ing here:
The Iron Boots: -5 EV & Ponderous, but +2 AC, Immune to trample and removes penalties for standing/fighting in shallow water. (fixedart thats obviously a Zelda reference)
The +27 Hat of Zot: Surrounds you with Zot traps in all directions whenever you put it on. Monsters do not trigger them. But hey, +27 AC from a hat.
The +1 Miscellaneous Superhero no.5's Cape: Permanent Flight, +6 EV.
The +4 Helm of the Knights of Nii: Evoked to cause terror and confusion (Nii!). Plants (Shrubberries) become friendly to you.

[duvessa]

Boot brands are too good for a scroll of brand auxillary armour to exist. Cloak, hat, and robe brands are pretty strong, too, even when they mainly free up a ring slot.

Turning a -2 Int ring into a +4 Int ring would be a nice use of a scroll, though. But there are usually better rings than stat rings by the time you have a rare scroll and a bad stat or defense ring.

And I guess you wouldn't really agonize over "Should I risk losing my +2 Int, or just improve my +2 Dex ring?" because there are only so many ring slots, so you probably won't use the product of the scroll in the first place unless you're an octopode.

This is fixable by both making more brands for aux armour, and making branded aux armor more common to compensate.

I think the scroll of brand weapon as it exists now is a pretty cool thing and I think it has its place for multiple reasons. Firstly, you probably have one weapon. You invest enchant armour scrolls into it, you work on your skills. Unless you have the worst brand, applying ?bw is a gamble - you can get something great, something that is barely an upgrade or just something strictly worse. The scrolls you propose would just encourage hoarding aux armour and gamble for better auxes (note that there is not much aux brands) - if you get an undesirable ego you don't really lose anything. Same with rerolling badly enchanted AC/EV/stat rings.

I just don't see it working, sorry.

If you wasted the scroll on your aux armour, then you miss a chance to brand anything else. Its an interesting choice because you can use it to brand three wildly different things with the scrolls. So do you roll for a better weapon? Better armour? Or better evocables? If you miss it usually doesn't matter right now anyways, and personally, I use scrolls of Brand Weapon on random +x weapons of the same category, and not my main weapon. So theres no risk involved currently either, unless you choose to make it a risk.

Ideally, you would want to use these on wands or evocables that you don't like for a chance to get something better, I think its really unlikely that the primary use for these would be for branding equipment given the popularity of evocables. Everyone seems to love acquirement just for the chance of getting a good wand going by some forum posts.

"Let's add something totally broken, then add 5 billion more things so that the first thing works"

This is scroll of inversion reincarnated. Give it up.

[Aean]

Given that the accessory brands tend to be rarer, and (often) more powerful, it'd be a dangerous scroll to offer. Imagine if every game you could pretty much guarantee things like boots of running. Seems like it'd either need to be incredibly rare, or capable of inducing as many negative qualities as positive ones (sure, maybe you get boots of running, but maybe your boots are now cursed and give you teleportitis).

Given the choice, I'd rather introduce something more like what others have suggested here, with a wide range of positive and negative effects. Though maybe instead of something targeted directly at accessories, maybe a "Scroll of Chaos," or something, as sort of a Potion of Mutation that affects your gear. Anything from turning gear into artifacts, to changing the enchantment level/properties, to animating them as friendly (or enemy) dancing weapons or ghosts, etc. You could read one on D1 and have your starting spear turned into a powerful randart, or maybe it'd give your armour a contam property.

[Lasty]

Keep in mind that for a design to be accepted, there has to be a case for its inclusion making things better. Right now the argument seems to be basically "this would allow me to make my equipment better," but that's not a compelling design reason. You would need to demonstrate that players don't have sufficient access to branded equipment or quality equipment, and, honestly, I think the opposite is closer to true.

[wisp412]

snip

This is fixable by both making more brands for aux armour, and making branded aux armor more common to compensate.

snip

If you wasted the scroll on your aux armour, then you miss a chance to brand anything else. Its an interesting choice because you can use it to brand three wildly different things with the scrolls. So do you roll for a better weapon? Better armour? Or better evocables? If you miss it usually doesn't matter right now anyways, and personally, I use scrolls of Brand Weapon on random +x weapons of the same category, and not my main weapon. So theres no risk involved currently either, unless you choose to make it a risk.

Ideally, you would want to use these on wands or evocables that you don't like for a chance to get something better, I think its really unlikely that the primary use for these would be for branding equipment given the popularity of evocables. Everyone seems to love acquirement just for the chance of getting a good wand going by some forum posts.

"Let's add something totally broken, then add 5 billion more things so that the first thing works"

This is scroll of inversion reincarnated. Give it up.

I was actually only suggesting changing one thing to make the scroll better. If branding armor is actually that broken, then rerolling jewelry, consumables, or evocables is still interesting. I don't see how this is perceived as "lets make the player stronger", but "lets add more uses to a scroll with limited uses". Branding weapons is already really strong, but only useful on so many character types. Furthermore, I think it would be nice to have more aux brands anyways, along with negative brands, but that belongs in a different discussion, and perhaps, needs to be discussed before this is added. If it is decided that branding aux armor could be interesting, than more aux armor brands should be discussed, and decided separately if that is an interesting system by itself, and if it isn't then that part of the scroll would be dropped. Just saying that this is bad because it would cause more discussion sounds like bad reasoning to me. A good reason to drop this idea is that it might overlap with scrolls of acquirement too much, but those seem weighted to give things you haven't seen so you can influence the roll, and seems to scale with evocations.

Now if you want to say rerolling rings/ amulets, and wands/ rechargeable evocables is too strong then I have to disagree. Most wands are already really good, except for a wand of magic darts. So you could get rid of 'bad' things with this scroll like wand of magic darts, or extra copies of wands you have, scrolls of random uselessness, and potions of poison, which I don't see being stronger than branding a weapon. Its the same with most consumables, but not with most jewelry. Jewelry would be one of its main uses, but given that having copies of jewelry is pointless, and the number of bad existing brands for jewelry this would just improve your odds of having some resistances. Most of the really good jewelry seems quite rare already as well.

This keeps the theme of a scroll that can reroll an item, but is quite random if it gives you anything decent. Adding more uses to a scroll doesn't seem like powercreep to me, but maybe I am wrong. I also think that all the extra uses are interesting, and each use of the scroll has to be decided by the player on a case by case basis. At worst this is a scroll to make up for what the range doesn't give you. No weapon brands? Not enough potions? No resistances? Playing an Artificer but only have wands of magic darts? These give a chance to give you more of what the range didn't, but isn't as useful if you already have everything. On a character that had some of everything, then this would be used for a chance of a benemut, exp potion, scroll or acquirement, enchantment scrolls, heal wand, or haste wand. Give the chances of getting any of those, I would say that another chance at those isn't broken enough to drop the idea, and if that is the sole reason the idea would be dropped, then you could just lower the chances for the better rolls.

I do want to point out that my original inspiration for this was for branding jewelry and evocables.
Edit: Underlined a key point that I think addresses why this would be useful in most games.

[Siegurt]

This keeps the theme of a scroll that can reroll an item, but is quite random if it gives you anything decent. Adding more uses to a scroll doesn't seem like powercreep to me, but maybe I am wrong. I also think that all the extra uses are interesting, and each use of the scroll has to be decided by the player on a case by case basis. At worst this is a scroll to make up for what the range doesn't give you. No weapon brands? Not enough potions? No resistances? Playing an Artificer but only have wands of magic darts? These give a chance to give you more of what the range didn't, but isn't as useful if you already have everything. On a character that had some of everything, then this would be used for a chance of a benemut, exp potion, scroll or acquirement, enchantment scrolls, heal wand, or haste wand. Give the chances of getting any of those, I would say that another chance at those isn't broken enough to drop the idea, and if that is the sole reason the idea would be dropped, then you could just lower the chances for the better rolls.

I do want to point out that my original inspiration for this was for branding jewelry and evocables.
Edit: Underlined a key point that I think addresses why this would be useful in most games.

So the question I have is, given that not-currently-useful items are effectively unlimited, what is the effective difference between your suggestion and acquirement? Jewelry, potions and evocables have no "base type" to carry over to the rebranded item, their type is effectively the same as their brand, so in effect branding jewelry or evocables is the same as acquirement but with a more complicated and annoying interface (Having to go pick up an unused item to brand it)

Branding armour is actually *more* powerful than acquirement, since you get to select the type of equipment you'd like to try to improve, and generally speaking a non-artifact branded armour is better on average than an artifact bit of armour (since you can enchant non artifacts)

It seems like your suggestion boils down to "more acquirement scrolls, perhaps with limitations" and even if properly balanced this doesn't add anything beyond "more loot" which can already be added more simply to the game, if needed, without overly complicated effects or need for weird interactions or indeed really much in the way of more code.

[wisp412]

snip

So the question I have is, given that not-currently-useful items are effectively unlimited, what is the effective difference between your suggestion and acquirement? Jewelry, potions and evocables have no "base type" to carry over to the rebranded item, their type is effectively the same as their brand, so in effect branding jewelry or evocables is the same as acquirement but with a more complicated and annoying interface (Having to go pick up an unused item to brand it)

Branding armour is actually *more* powerful than acquirement, since you get to select the type of equipment you'd like to try to improve, and generally speaking a non-artifact branded armour is better on average than an artifact bit of armour (since you can enchant non artifacts)

It seems like your suggestion boils down to "more acquirement scrolls, perhaps with limitations" and even if properly balanced this doesn't add anything beyond "more loot" which can already be added more simply to the game, if needed, without overly complicated effects or need for weird interactions or indeed really much in the way of more code.

I'm not sure what should be done to make them different than Acquirement. But I think just limiting the branding options to one thing other than Brand weapon would be enough. Perhaps the situations where you already have a good weapon brand/ artifact weapon, and when you are playing unarmed characters don't need a specific use for it. There are other useless items in the game afterall.

I also think you guys are focusing too much on the brand armour part. You don't think rerolling jewelry, consumables, or evocables could individually be interesting alternative uses? I agree that doing all of them might be too much, and would create too much overlap with Acquirement, but having one or two of those wouldn't be too strong. What if it could brand any offensive item instead? This would limit it to weapons, ammo, wands/ rechargeable evocables and maybe staves.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

The +4 Helm of the Knights of Nii:Evoked to cause terror and confusion (Nii!). Plants (Shrubberries) become friendly to you.

this would actually be a cool addition to some fixedart.

[Lasty]

I was actually only suggesting changing one thing to make the scroll better. [. . .] I don't see how this is perceived as "lets make the player stronger", but "lets add more uses to a scroll with limited uses".

Adding more uses for something inherently makes the player stronger. In particular, this isn't just adding more uses, but very powerful uses. Let me give a similar example that I think will be immediately clear is a huge buff to players: "Let's add more uses to enchant weapon scrolls! Right now they're limited because sometimes your weapon is already +9 or you have an artefact weapon. I propose that you can use enchant weapon to add slaying to anything -- rings, armour, whatever. If that's too powerful, we can scale it back to just add slaying to jewelry." Clearly being able to add slaying to one type of thing (weapons) results in weaker players than being able to add slaying to anything, right? Similarly, being able to add and switch brands on one type of thing results in weaker players than being able to add or switch brands on anything and also transmute items you don't like into good items. As Siegurt says, the latter is like a better acquirement in most ways.

Moving back from the issues with the proposal, why do you think it would be good for the game for players to have better loot overall? Why would it be better for the game if a narrowly-useful but very powerful item became always very powerful?