Make Oklob plants scary again

[Pereza0]

Basically the tread title.

Back when corrosion was permanent, these things were real trouble.
The way corrosion works now its mostly scary when you have to deal with multiple enemies while corroded, never the case with Oklob plants if you play properly.
Dealing with Oklob plants is basically about spamming summons, clouds or just trying to kill them regularly and just run away and repair your items if things go awry. With the old corrosion system just popping in and out was not as recommendable as it is now.

So I wanted this to be a thread were we brainstorm and try to find a way to make them interesting/scary again.

Here are some thoughts that don't necessarily go together but they are not mutually exclusive either:

1 ) They summon allies that are fast and hit fast, each hit does not do a lot of damage if you have good armour - but if you get heavily corroded these hits will be trouble.
2 ) They radiate an aura of corrosion or cause acidic rain, meaning it will affect you even if there are allies in the LOS
3 ) They have some way to affect your movement, much like thorn hunters or shambling mangroves, they could block exits and/or slow you down while they pelt you with acid projectiles

[Tedronai]

With old corrosion you did just switch to some shitty secondary armor, killed them, and equipped your regular gear again. Oklob plants were never scary in my opinion...

[Sandman25]

4) Make them apply new "Oklob Acid" status when their acid bolt hits player. Similar to rot but affects gear enchantment instead of HP. Can be cured by potion of curing.

Edit. Oops, I forgot how everyone dealt with old corrosion.

[XuaXua]

Corrosion is a current flat -3 per hit.

An alternative could be to make a corroded state where corrosion increases over time, rate of corrosion can be increased by additional hits, eventually peaks, then recedes.

A current hit that might do -3 immediately now does -2 first turn, -1 for next 2 turns, peaks at -4; subsequent hit makes it go further. rCorr slows or reduces the states.

EDIT: SORT OF LIKE WHAT SANDMAN POSTED A SECOND BEFORE ME.

[Pereza0]

With old corrosion you did just switch to some shitty secondary armor, killed them, and equipped your regular gear again. Oklob plants were never scary in my opinion...

I might have exaggerated how bad they were, but still, right now they are very easy and I think something could be done about it. The acid aspect of them made sense in old versions, now it really doesn't and if someone were to add oklob plants to the game now (instead of having them from previous versions) it wouldn't really sound like a good idea.

4) Make them apply new "Oklob Acid" status when their acid bolt hits player. Similar to rot but affects gear enchantment instead of HP. Can be cured by potion of curing.

Edit. Oops, I forgot how everyone dealt with old corrosion.

Corrosion is a current flat -3 per hit.

An alternative could be to make a corroded state where corrosion increases over time, rate of corrosion can be increased by additional hits, eventually peaks, then recedes.

A current hit that might do -3 immediately now does -2 first turn, -1 for next 2 turns, peaks at -4; subsequent hit makes it go further. rCorr slows or reduces the states.

EDIT: SORT OF LIKE WHAT SANDMAN POSTED A SECOND BEFORE ME.

This could be interesting, combined with summon it could mean just running away and resting is not as safe as it is right now.

Another alternative could be giving them a very inaccurate but powerful shot, remind those heavy AC users of their mortality

[Tedronai]

if someone were to add oklob plants to the game now (instead of having them from previous versions) it wouldn't really sound like a good idea.

I wouldn't mind seeing enemy oklob plants gone. You mostly encounter them in some annoying gimmick vault anyway. Removing them completely would be a major nerf to Fedhas, though.

[Pereza0]

if someone were to add oklob plants to the game now (instead of having them from previous versions) it wouldn't really sound like a good idea.

I wouldn't mind seeing enemy oklob plants gone. You mostly encounter them in some annoying gimmick vault anyway. Removing them completely would be a major nerf to Fedhas, though.

I agree they don't add a lot to the game as they currently stand, but I still feel that they could be made more interesting rather than outright removed.

And I had forgotten about Fedhas entirely, maybe Oklob plants and Fedhas enhanced plants should have different properties if Oklobs turn out to be too exotic

[duvessa]

Crawl has a lot of stationary monsters, and they have gone through a few changes. New ones have even been introduced. In spite of all this effort, nobody so far has managed to make a stationary monster actually dangerous, because it can't freaking move and players can. The only reason old oklob plants were consequential was that you could discover one and have it permanently corrode your armour in the same turn. They were certainly never scary after you discovered them, since you could permanently stop their attacks with a single move, and if you wanted to kill one you could just take off your useful armour. There was, and still is, no meaningful difference between an oklob plant and an "acid trap" that corrodes your armour when you step on it, except that the oklob plant gives you free XP.
If you want to add a monster and have it actually threaten players, you're probably going to have to make it able to move. Even most of the monsters that do move aren't dangerous. A stationary monster gets ONE player move's worth of actions (which usually means one action) as soon as it's discovered, and then never gets any actions again. How can you possibly expect to make such a monster dangerous, short of making it instantly kill you when you enter LOS?

[tedric]

nobody so far has managed to make a stationary monster actually dangerous, because it can't freaking move and players can

There is one exception: When the way forward requires passing through the stationary monster's LOS. Placement can function in place of movement if the player can't avoid the situation (or at least has sufficient motivation to move forward). I'm thinking of that Lair vault that places all three down-stairs in a room full of Oklobs, or those Ice Cave layouts in which you have to pass through the LOS overlap of two Ice Statues to get to the loot.

Granted, you can get around these or at least minimize the danger with various tactics -- Invis, digging/disintegrating through the walls -- which makes them more like puzzles to be solved than enemies to be defeated. But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, and there are probably more creative vault layouts that could eliminate such tactics and force a confrontation every time, or at least more often. Then the question would be whether unavoidable confrontations are a good thing for Crawl.

[Magipi]

A stationary monster gets ONE player move's worth of actions (which usually means one action) as soon as it's discovered, and then never gets any actions again.

Unless it guards something important, in which case you have to fight it. Oklobs guarding Slime is common, but I have also seen them guard the Lair itself, whick is a bit too brutal for my taste.

[Siegurt]

Well the other option for non moving monsters is rather than having the monster move, you can have the player be unable to move (our unable to escape from los of a ranged monster)

I actually would like more monsters that did that sort of thing. If oklobs could summon a bramble wall that would be interesting.

[Sandman25]

If we can brainstorm stationary monsters in this thread, there are several ideas to deal with "Retreat and forget" problem.
1) Make player have permanent Mark status on the level as long as the statue is alive
2) Make player suffer some minor draining which can be cured only by killing the statue
3) Make the level have -cTele as long as the statue is alive
4) Make the statue generate permanent summons. Total number of summons is limited (10, for example), they don't expire, don't give XP and can travel anywhere on the level. If you kill one, the statue will create another summon after some time.
5) Seal 2 downstairs so only one downstairs will be available and it can make entering deeper level harder.
6) Killing statue gives award depending on time elapsed after noticing it. If you kill the statue on the same turn, you get 500 gold. If you delay for 400 turns, you will get only 100 gold. If you delay for 500 turns, you get no gold.

[and into]

Stationary monsters can present an obstacle that you have to (or want to) deal with in some fashion, but that's not really the same as being dangerous.

[TeshiAlair]

Here's a few ideas:

Simpler idea: Have Oklob's acid do less corrosion damage, but slow you, to make them more of a zoning threat when dealing with other enemies.

More complicated idea: Same, but have there be a Oklob "trunk" and vines coming out of it that lead to flower buds. The buds open into smaller, lower health Oklobs when you get close, or when you attack the trunk, but killing the trunk kills all of them.

I feels like this plays off of the strategic theme that plants have regarding zoning an area (spores, brambles, etc).

[fearitself]

Make them summon Panlords...somebody has to water them when Fedhas is busy.

[XuaXua]

Here's a few ideas:

Simpler idea: Have Oklob's acid do less corrosion damage, but slow you, to make them more of a zoning threat when dealing with other enemies.

More complicated idea: Same, but have there be a Oklob "trunk" and vines coming out of it that lead to flower buds. The buds open into smaller, lower health Oklobs when you get close, or when you attack the trunk, but killing the trunk kills all of them.

I feels like this plays off of the strategic theme that plants have regarding zoning an area (spores, brambles, etc).

Plant Kraken

[daggaz]

Crawl has a lot of stationary monsters, and they have gone through a few changes. New ones have even been introduced. In spite of all this effort, nobody so far has managed to make a stationary monster actually dangerous, because it can't freaking move and players can. The only reason old oklob plants were consequential was that you could discover one and have it permanently corrode your armour in the same turn. They were certainly never scary after you discovered them, since you could permanently stop their attacks with a single move, and if you wanted to kill one you could just take off your useful armour. There was, and still is, no meaningful difference between an oklob plant and an "acid trap" that corrodes your armour when you step on it, except that the oklob plant gives you free XP.
If you want to add a monster and have it actually threaten players, you're probably going to have to make it able to move. Even most of the monsters that do move aren't dangerous. A stationary monster gets ONE player move's worth of actions (which usually means one action) as soon as it's discovered, and then never gets any actions again. How can you possibly expect to make such a monster dangerous, short of making it instantly kill you when you enter LOS?

What if they put out tendrils (similar to spore tracks) which then randomly budded into a baby oklob plant, etc, etc..? Now you are forced to deal with them fairly quickly, before they spread over the level and turn it into a new version of the slime pits.

I hate this idea, by the way, because I fucking HATE spores and levels that turn into a goddamn dwarf fortress mushroom farm. But there it is.

[Siegurt]

Give Oklobs the "Wall of brambles" spell (from thorn hunters)