New God Concept: Vathoros~ Emperor of the Swarm

[eharper256]

Vathoros: Emperor of the Swarm
Gains piety for: Discovering new monster species, offering corpses- 1 in 4 chance of getting 1 piety, (none for killing).

Gets angry over: You using Charms school spells [loss of piety], Abandoning him [Penance].

0*= ‘One of the Many’
Summoning Support: Whenever you cast a summoning spell, your spell has a D 4+(Piety/10)% [Max 20%] chance of summoning an additional creature of the same type. This is checked (Piety/40) times [Max 4 times]. Hence at max piety, you are very likely to have 2 of a kind, and very rarely you might get 5 copies of the same creature. More copies will reduce the time that each is out, however, for balance issues. May also cause the spell to cost additional MP if it triggers more times like Dragons Call already does (and if that much MP is unavailable; the effect is ignored).
1*= ‘Apostle of the Many’
No new abilities.
2*= ‘Pied Piper’
Join Us: You gain an aura of domination that expands with piety. Whenever you or your summons hit a natural creature into HP that equals less than [Piety/3], there is a [Summonings %] chance that they are hit with a Wand of Enslavement effect, with power based off your Summonings skill and which is resisted by monster HD. Summons that are hostile to you are hit with an Abjuration effect instead. Undead and ‘natural’ demons are unaffected.
3*= ‘Disciple of the Few’ –
No new abilities.
4*= ‘Swarm Alpha’-
33% Protection from Summoning Miscasts, like Vehumet gives with conjurations.
5*= ‘[Speciesname] Legion’.
Swarmform [costs 7-12 piety, 1000 food, halves HP {self torment?}]: Melds all your equipment and turns you into a swarm of creatures. Your tile/player glyph becomes butterflies, you get +60 EV and Flight, and around you 7-12 friendly creatures appear including giant roaches, butterflies, rats, bats and similar weak ‘swarm’ themed things. Naturally meant as an escape ability; but probably not useful against hellfire, torment and other auto-hit/smite type stuff.
6*= ‘Lord of the Swarm’.
Vathoros grants you a copy of the Grand Grimoire.

A couple days ago I was getting a bit angsty over the loss of swarms of summonable minions for summoners and wondered aloud if there should be a summoning god to cover for that aspect being lost from Vehumet. So rather than being unproductive, here is my idea for this.

I've themed him as Vehumet's twin/brother of sorts, Vathoros. He is lord of swarms, packs and communities; and supports bringing more creatures into the world; and making them uniform and under his control. Rather than letting it all end in hellfire, he'd prefer to strip the world dry with fauna instead. Things that are not his, though, do not really please him and killing potential recruits does nothing to earn his favour either. However, the praying over corpses is themed with 'Vathoros appreciates you adding this soul to his menagerie' or (if it fails) 'This soul was too willful to join the swarm'. I like the idea that he got into a drunk betting game with Veh and they put odds on how the world explodes but it somehow turned into a massive argument and they fell out.

He doesn't like Charms and the idea of making yourself directly more powerful; even though you are a leader among the many, you shouldn't be trying to make yourself too unique or strong. This one's open to debate, but I like the idea that you can't get away with using RMsl; you'll have to use meatshields instead for a similar effect; and if you're desperate for flight you have to turn to Swarm Form. Its possible that he also doesn't mind haste from potions or wands in a pinch. May also have an option for Clarity due to the fact you start to think like a swarm.

As you might imagine, he is not a 'morally good' god by any stretch of the imagination. Anyway, let us know what you all think.

Game restart/join religion quote: "You are never alone. You are legion."

[Berder]

That first ability seems too powerful when summonings are already plenty powerful. The enslave ability would be really annoying when you don't want to enslave things, you just want to kill them - especially because you'll have allies turning back into enemies in the middle of fights or after fights while wandering around.

Suggestion: ditch the 0* ability (maybe replace it with something else). As a 2* ability, instead of enslaving enemies, have them become "infected" by vermin parasitically inhabiting its body. Infection counts as a kill. An infected enemy will serve you for a couple hundred turns, but its hit dice and max HP gradually decrease, until finally it decomposes into a large number of vermin of the type that could be produced by Rod of the Swarm. The vermin will follow you up and down stairs, but must remain in your LOS or they will quickly forget about you and vanish into the woodwork.

[eharper256]

I like that idea for the 2*, actually, probably more thematic as well.

On the other hand, the 0* is the core thing (the whole point was a return to the old versions of Spamammals and Savage it with dogs which made summoners so fun in the older versions), so I'm reluctant to let that go completely. Perhaps a further reduction of the % activation chance based on the level of the spell would work? I.e. D 4+(Piety/10)-(Spells level x 2)% [Max is instead 2-18% in this version]. It makes your low level summons swarm better (as was the idea), but means that haunt and hydras are unlikely to clone often. How about that?

[Pereza0]

I dislike his dislike of charms, hasting allies is fun

I would probably make it less summoning oriented too, rather, something useful to any character that uses allies. It should also provide ways to give the players summons in case he doesn't want to invest in summoning so much. As it stands it is a no-brainer for summoners and a no-go for everybody else.

I like the idea of having an "Enslavement" effect. I kinda like having summoning spells enhanced/extended.

However, I would drop the swarm form thing. Alllies are already great for escaping anyway.

Instead I would add an ability that buffs all your minions in some way you can't control. Using this ability makes your allies berserk/hastened/invisible/mighty/resistant for a while, and the game checks the effect is not completely useless in that given situation.

[Aean]

Thoughts:

If he's a god associated with swarms and summoning, he really needs to have at least one of his abilities provide allies. Just as Vehumet supports conjurations, but also provides them, Vathoros should probably do the same. You can join Vehumet, and he'll give you spells; with the current setup, Vathoros loses a lot if you don't already have summoning spells. Maybe he could gift you one or two different summoning books? Or maybe the 0* or 1* ability should be a basic "summon small mammals"-ish spell.

And if his big thing is bringing creatures into the world, under his control...and he's not big on you boosting yourself...maybe everything should be summon-dependent? Here's a few musings on it:

-Piety given for summons killing things (not sure about this - maybe summon disappears when it kills something, as it 'adds the [creature] to Vathoros' menagerie'), for converting things to add to your swarm
-Maybe an increased chance of piety depending on whether you've converted that species before, or whether you currently have one in your swarm?
-Maybe chance of piety/amount of piety depends on your current swarm size? I see two ways to take this - either to have it dependent on your current number of converts, or your total allies (summoned + converts). Either way, it encourages you to maintain a large swarm.
-Along with the previous point...maybe if your swarm is too small, or you've gone too long without adding to the swarm (maybe converts only?), you lose piety faster? At present, only his escape option costs piety, and corpse sacrificing is an easy way to gain piety. If you don't convert often (or at least burn the mana to keep a large swarm at all times), your piety drops fast.

[comebackshane]

Shouldn't say "We are never alone. We are legion."

wait no, now im confused, I think in the bible it say "my name is legion, for we are many"

so maybe: "you are never alone. We are legion".

yes, that sounds right

I also wanted to inform you, my fellow chaps, that I support the notion of a summoning school based diety since veh went to being conjurations only. other schools have their own god, y not summons

[Arrhythmia]

Since this is in CYC and I'm not obliged to make worth-while posts in here, I'd like to point out every God starts with a different letter of the alphabet*, so Vehumet is going to demand his spot back.

*Before you ask, TSO's letter is "1".

[Sprucery]

Make it Wehumet (sorry Wulndraste).

[eharper256]

I dislike his dislike of charms, hasting allies is fun

This is true, so do I, but you've gotta have some things as balance if you're going to have more summons.

I would probably make it less summoning oriented too, rather, something useful to any character that uses allies. It should also provide ways to give the players summons in case he doesn't want to invest in summoning so much. As it stands it is a no-brainer for summoners and a no-go for everybody else.

If he's a god associated with swarms and summoning, he really needs to have at least one of his abilities provide allies. Just as Vehumet supports conjurations, but also provides them, Vathoros should probably do the same. You can join Vehumet, and he'll give you spells; with the current setup, Vathoros loses a lot if you don't already have summoning spells. Maybe he could gift you one or two different summoning books? Or maybe the 0* or 1* ability should be a basic "summon small mammals"-ish spell.

Absolutely, but I was trying to be careful not to step on Yredelemnuls bony toes. I didn't want Vath to just be a non-necromancy version. I did consider dropping Books of Callings/Summonings etc. as well as the Grand Grimoire; but that was Vehumets old behaviour and it was pulled, so bringing it back would be counterproductive; I assume. I also didn't want it to be a copy of Veh's memorisation that he currently had. It was a hard thing to ponder... however, it does lead me back onto...

I like the idea of having an "Enslavement" effect. I kinda like having summoning spells enhanced/extended.

I just had an idea related to that: if you enslave or offer a sufficient amount of the correct corpse type; THAT is when you get offered spells. Once you've dominated/offered enough corpses of enough Rats, Bats, and Quokkas, for example, you get offered Summon Small Mammals, since you've contributed the requisite souls to the swarm. Of course, since you may not get an altar until D9, if this was the chosen option, the game would have to do an analysis of your kills list when you join Vath, and perhaps offer those spells, if not instantly, certainly at 1* or something. And this...

-Piety given for summons killing things (not sure about this - maybe summon disappears when it kills something, as it 'adds the [creature] to Vathoros' menagerie'), for converting things to add to your swarm

...could help reduce the annoyance over enslaved things sticking around too long? Not sure though, it may be too powerful.

-Maybe an increased chance of piety depending on whether you've converted that species before, or whether you currently have one in your swarm?

Nice, but as you've also pointed out, it could make piety rise too quick. We'd need more ways to burn it.

However, I would drop the swarm form thing. Alllies are already great for escaping anyway. Instead I would add an ability that buffs all your minions in some way you can't control. Using this ability makes your allies berserk/hastened/invisible/mighty/resistant for a while, and the game checks the effect is not completely useless in that given situation.

I guess that's one idea; but almost feels like encroaching on Beorgh's territory.

Well, anyway, still needs some further thought I guess, but I like these ideas.

I'd like to point out every God starts with a different letter of the alphabet*, so Vehumet is going to demand his spot back.

You know, I didn't even notice that until now and I've been playing DCSS for years (lol). If we must keep to that rule, then Paithoros, Gethmendos are slight alterations (I'm assuming R is used for Ru). Or ironically, you could make him called 'Nil', implying zero, which is funny in contrast to the swarm encouragement. 'And then there were none!' would be his death of worshipper quote in that case.

I also wanted to inform you, my fellow chaps, that I support the notion of a summoning school based diety since veh went to being conjurations only. other schools have their own god, y not summons.

High five!
Also: "You are never alone. We are legion". <= Yes absolutely, that does sound better.

[Lasty]

This god is narrow in focus in a way that almost no other gods are -- Kiku, Trog and Veh are the only ones that come close, though Kiku and Veh at least will help induct people into their specialties, and Trog supports all sorts of magic-free characters. On top of that, I feel quite strongly that we don't need a god specifically to buff summoning magic for two additional reasons: 1) summoning is already very strong and doesn't particularly need support, and 2) many gods already provide "summoning support" in the form of granting you minions; TSO even grants explicit summoning support by buffing your allies.

The reasoning that the god is warranted because there are already support gods for every other magic school doesn't hold up: even assuming we lump all the elemental schools under Veh, Charms, Translocations, and Transmutations don't have support gods, and Hexes don't unless you stretch things enough to call Dith a hex support god. Really, the only school support gods are for Conjurations and Necromancy.

[TeshiAlair]

I do however really like the no Charms conduct. This gives me an idea...

[dynast]

Since this is the god of the "actual" summons, he needs an ability that prevents or at least gives resistance to abjuration.

Losing half your hp is not a good idea for escape.

[eharper256]

This god is narrow in focus in a way that almost no other gods are -- Kiku, Trog and Veh are the only ones that come close, though Kiku and Veh at least will help induct people into their specialties, and Trog supports all sorts of magic-free characters. On top of that, I feel quite strongly that we don't need a god specifically to buff summoning magic for two additional reasons: 1) summoning is already very strong and doesn't particularly need support, and 2) many gods already provide "summoning support" in the form of granting you minions; TSO even grants explicit summoning support by buffing your allies.

The reasoning that the god is warranted because there are already support gods for every other magic school doesn't hold up: even assuming we lump all the elemental schools under Veh, Charms, Translocations, and Transmutations don't have support gods, and Hexes don't unless you stretch things enough to call Dith a hex support god. Really, the only school support gods are for Conjurations and Necromancy.

Alas, Lasty has spoken. Though I want to poke at the bold underlined part: is the idea I proposed for this not ok? This:

I just had an idea related to that: if you enslave or offer a sufficient amount of the correct corpse type; THAT is when you get offered spells. Once you've dominated/offered enough corpses of enough Rats, Bats, and Quokkas, for example, you get offered Summon Small Mammals, since you've contributed the requisite souls to the swarm. Of course, since you may not get an altar until D9, if this was the chosen option, the game would have to do an analysis of your kills list when you join Vath, and perhaps offer those spells, if not instantly, certainly at 1* or something. And this...

As for 1), apparently I'm mostly alone in thinking its no longer as great as it once was; but all the counterbalances I added in were placed on the assumption that it was broadening, rather than empowering, summons. And for 2), that is why I was being careful in not stepping on the toes of other godly abilities.

Charms is already OP and certainly doesn't need a support god. Translocations is ~kind of~ supported thematically by Lugonu. I was considering adding some Transmutations support here as well but couldn't fit it in. And hexes actually probably does need a support; they can be rather weak for the late-game when everything resists.

Since this is the god of the "actual" summons, he needs an ability that prevents or at least gives resistance to abjuration.

Losing half your hp is not a good idea for escape.

I was considering that; but I didn't feel I could fit it in with the other abilities. The HP loss was a balance idea; since a massive EV boost and minions all at once is pretty good, IMHO, but if it were considered un-needed I guess thats fair enough.

[Lasty]

Alas, Lasty has spoken. Though I want to poke at the bold underlined part: is the idea I proposed for this not ok? This:

I just had an idea related to that: if you enslave or offer a sufficient amount of the correct corpse type; THAT is when you get offered spells. Once you've dominated/offered enough corpses of enough Rats, Bats, and Quokkas, for example, you get offered Summon Small Mammals, since you've contributed the requisite souls to the swarm. Of course, since you may not get an altar until D9, if this was the chosen option, the game would have to do an analysis of your kills list when you join Vath, and perhaps offer those spells, if not instantly, certainly at 1* or something. And this...

I don't think the idea of having to grind a certain species, particularly an early-spawning species, to get a summoning book is a good idea -- it incentivizes hanging around on levels until OODs start spawning just to get enough vermin corpses. However, even if this were a great way to get summoning books into the hands of the worshipper, I'm not sure it's good idea to create new gods in the narrow mold that Kiku and Veh occupy; for one thing, it means stealing gimmicks from existing gods, and for another, gods that suit a broad range of playstyles tend to be much more interesting additions to the game. For example, look at Dith: that god supports pretty much every type of play, but how Dith's support impacts each character will be noticeably different for characters that do different things.

As for 1), apparently I'm mostly alone in thinking its no longer as great as it once was; but all the counterbalances I added in were placed on the assumption that it was broadening, rather than empowering, summons.

I didn't read it as broadening summon play -- you get more summons, you get a powerful summoning book, you get to enslave wounded monsters by using summons (summons making summons, effectively), you get summoning miscast protection. The only thing that's a real departure that I see is the escape ability, but it doesn't really broaden summon play as such, it's just a powerful escape ability. Could you explain how it broadens summoning play?

[eharper256]

I don't think the idea of having to grind a certain species, particularly an early-spawning species, to get a summoning book is a good idea -- it incentivizes hanging around on levels until OODs start spawning just to get enough vermin corpses. However, even if this were a great way to get summoning books into the hands of the worshipper, I'm not sure it's good idea to create new gods in the narrow mold that Kiku and Veh occupy; for one thing, it means stealing gimmicks from existing gods, and for another, gods that suit a broad range of playstyles tend to be much more interesting additions to the game. For example, look at Dith: that god supports pretty much every type of play, but how Dith's support impacts each character will be noticeably different for characters that do different things.

I wasn't proposing a need for grinding; I realize this isn't a JRPG! Generally the idea was that it would be exceedingly likely you would already have enough by the time you joined the religion (since it would analyse your kills list). I was thinking along the lines of 10-15 of those creatures. Same with hounds. Imps of all varieties would count for summon imp, stuff like that. And getting 15 odd hydras is usually doable by the end of Swamp and Lair assuming you've not been running from them (and if you got spider, well it would be nice if there were also a Summon Arachnids spell for that purpose, like the bag of spiders currently does).

As for niches, I was very much trying to avoid a direct parallel with Veh/Kiku. Miscast protection is about the only thing they'd share. I suppose if you mean they are all focused down one route of spells, well yeah, that's true, never denied that. But its already a bit of no-brainer that you play Kiku as a Necro, and Veh as a Conjurer, isn't it? Mages only go Sif in my experience if they can abuse Channelling or really want a wide variety of spells and don't trust their luck. And... maybe they go Ash if they want the binding boost to skills (i.e. do alot of different spells). And Dith purely because of increasing the lacklustre late-game for hexes. Other than that, there aren't many pure mage choices typically until/unless they're going extended.

I didn't read it as broadening summon play -- you get more summons, you get a powerful summoning book, you get to enslave wounded monsters by using summons (summons making summons, effectively), you get summoning miscast protection. The only thing that's a real departure that I see is the escape ability, but it doesn't really broaden summon play as such, it's just a powerful escape ability. Could you explain how it broadens summoning play?

Broadening as in they do more things; rather than different things. Your summons doing summon-y things; and making you get more bang for buck, and having something more interesting happen than just you sitting behind a meat-wall. Perhaps its not the best word for it, admittedly, but 'focus' wasn't really the right term either.

Other abilities were also considered to spruce it up: for example, summons restoring your life when they attack was also a thought, but obviously things like that had high potential to be broken, and I didn't want things to be overpowered in the initial pitch.