The Tavern

"Mundane and average"?

Is that how we represent ourselves in a game? How about "a race of strong, intelligent, dexterous, industrious, hard-working, adaptable, ingenious, resourceful, multi-talented and flexible?"

Srsly, I rarely see anyone play humans (except one person, you know who I mean) and if you ask them why they will tell you "'cause I haven't won one yet." Rly?
Sadly there is no real reason to play us over any of the more fancy races because the "jack-of-all-trades" bonus we get in most video games doesn't rly account for much in crawl. I think that has to change! Who's with me?
A fully armoured fighter defeated by an adder? Is this how we show the world what a great race we are?
Let's stop hiding ourselves! We have a right to exist! We are just as strong as any orc and elf and ogre and dwarf and whatnot! Why belittle ourselves?

Buff humans!

IMO Hu is already stronger than DE, Ds, Fo, Gh, Gr, Ha, HE, Ko, Mu, Na, Op, and Te.

Dunno about Gr and Ha though, but I understand why you say so (HP).

Humans don't have enough tentacles.

I really like Humans, and play them almost exclusively.

filthy humanophile

Sar wrote:filthy humanophile

Omeg I will report you for "abbrassive tone" kappa not

comebackshane wrote:Sadly there is no real reason to play us over any of the more fancy races because the "jack-of-all-trades" bonus we get in most video games doesn't rly account for much in crawl.

Really, the "generic jack-of-all-trades" characterization that many games attribute to humans strikes me as just lazy thinking -- surely humans must have some distinguishing feature as compared to other species.

I think it makes sense gameplay-wise, a new player understands that Hu is the baseline feature-wise.

nicolae wrote:
comebackshane wrote:Sadly there is no real reason to play us over any of the more fancy races because the "jack-of-all-trades" bonus we get in most video games doesn't rly account for much in crawl.

Really, the "generic jack-of-all-trades" characterization that many games attribute to humans strikes me as just lazy thinking -- surely humans must have some distinguishing feature as compared to other species.

The only other adaptation we humans have besides our adaptability that I can think of in the short time I have to write this post is that we are crazy good at running ridiculously long distances.

e: dexterous hands too

Humans are extremely endurant, great at recovering from wounds, cunning as fuck and very good killers that are also capable of mind-boggling skill.

yeah clearly they're just average jack-of-all-trades sure
(why the hell do you think they got to the top of the food chain in the first place)

Bloax wrote:why the hell do you think they got to the top of the food chain in the first place

because Trolls do not actually exist

Sar wrote:
Bloax wrote:why the hell do you think they got to the top of the food chain in the first place

because Trolls do not actually exist

They do exist on this forum

Bloax wrote:(why the hell do you think they got to the top of the food chain in the first place)

Agriculture.

i preferred "medium-sized creature prone to great ambition"

How about Hu starting with random aptitudes?

hooray for startscumming

Sar wrote:hooray for startscumming

I just found out the next thread title.

comebackshane wrote:"Mundane and average"?

Is that how we represent ourselves in a game? How about "a race of strong, intelligent, dexterous, industrious, hard-working, adaptable, ingenious, resourceful, multi-talented and flexible?"

Srsly, I rarely see anyone play humans (except one person, you know who I mean) and if you ask them why they will tell you "'cause I haven't won one yet." Rly?
Sadly there is no real reason to play us over any of the more fancy races because the "jack-of-all-trades" bonus we get in most video games doesn't rly account for much in crawl. I think that has to change! Who's with me?
A fully armoured fighter defeated by an adder? Is this how we show the world what a great race we are?
Let's stop hiding ourselves! We have a right to exist! We are just as strong as any orc and elf and ogre and dwarf and whatnot! Why belittle ourselves?

Buff humans!

Back on topic, I think people underestimate the power of being a Jack of All Trades. The sheer adaptability of having 0 in everything means you can do anything; and I have as several Hu characters. It just means that background matters alot more for Humans; and your D1 - D3 drops can determine your future gameplan alot more than some characters.

That said, humankind actually prevails as a species due to co-operation + specialisation. Are all people strong, intelligent and dexterous in equal measure? Not bloody likely... but strong man, directed by intelligent man, and tempered by dexterous man makes for an OP combo. Our species also prevails because we are the weakest, ironically. We're angry, bloodthirsty, merciless, cunning, backstabbing bastards precisely because most of us couldn't take a troll in a fist-fight; but would be willing to do anything to win.

Game mechanics wise, I'd love the idea that human could allow you pick 3 skills to have at +2 or something to show your natural interests. It would be a nice compromise and wouldn't require start-scumming.

fwiw human is my favorite race

crate wrote:fwiw human is my favorite race

comebackshane wrote:Srsly, I rarely see anyone play humans (except one person, you know who I mean)

Well I definitely like Hu better than Ce, DD, DE, Dr, Fe, Fo, Gh, Gr, Ha, HE, HO, Ko, Mf, Mi, Na, Og, Op, Sp, Te, Tr, Vp, or VS.

When I am in the mood to play a flexible "play with what the dungeon gives me" character, I generally play demonspawn.

I like all races equally!

(Disclaimer: still never played Fo or VS, but I'm sure I'll like them equally too.)

duvessa wrote:IMO Hu is already stronger than DE, Ds, Fo, Gh, Gr, Ha, HE, Ko, Mu, Na, Op, and Te.

There is a typo in your post, you wrote Gr instead of Fe.

Notice the alphabetical order. I believe that human is stronger than gargoyle and not stronger than felid.

Code:: <halberd> !lg greatplayers recent playable !boring / won s=crace o=% <Sequell> 2461/23820 games for greatplayers (recent playable !boring): 89/413x Deep Dwarf [21.55%], 113/539x Gargoyle [20.96%], 82/419x Centaur [19.57%], 89/553x Ghoul [16.09%], 110/733x Draconian [15.01%], 118/847x Merfolk [13.93%], 56/405x Felid [13.83%], 68/561x Halfling [12.12%], 65/539x Naga [12.06%], 111/939x Ogre [11.82%], 68/604x Vampire [11.26%], 112/1029x Human [10.88%], 94/897x Hill Orc <Sequell> [10.48%], 66/635x Spriggan [10.39%], 88/853x Demigod [10.32%], 87/846x Troll [10.28%], 109/1102x Formicid [9.89%], 85/897x Tengu [9.48%], 211/2236x Demonspawn [9.44%], 120/1294x Minotaur [9.27%], 62/698x Kobold [8.88%], 75/918x Deep Elf [8.17%], 68/912x High Elf [7.46%], 82/1104x Mummy [7.43%], 140/2274x Vine Stalker [6.16%], 93/1573x Octopode [5.91%]

Note that some races - particularly minotaur, spriggan, and vine stalker - may place artificially low here due to speedrunning.

Oh my fucking god.

nicolae wrote:
comebackshane wrote:Sadly there is no real reason to play us over any of the more fancy races because the "jack-of-all-trades" bonus we get in most video games doesn't rly account for much in crawl.

Really, the "generic jack-of-all-trades" characterization that many games attribute to humans strikes me as just lazy thinking -- surely humans must have some distinguishing feature as compared to other species.

Ketone metabolism! Atherosclerosis! What more could you want?

Humans are my favorite species in crawl too, and I agree that they're better than a lot of races. More importantly, because they aren't pidgeonholed, they could reasonably choose anything that characters can do, so you're forced to make meaningful choices. That's much more exciting than having stupidly high apts in a few things.

Humans have no special properties because we judge all races based on their differences from humans. If minotaurs were default, humans would have the special property of great magic apts and ability to wear helmets.

Arrhythmia wrote:
Bloax wrote:(why the hell do you think they got to the top of the food chain in the first place)

Agriculture.

Humans are considered specialist-generalists. We specialize at excelling in every ecosystem role.

In MoO2 the main special power of Humans was that their government was a Democracy, which gave them some really strong boosts (but forbade you from exterminating species). In Twilight Imperium humans are the best at conquering worlds using their marines. In MoM humans were divided into Barbarians, Nomads, and High Men, and each had awesome unique units. In AoW 1 humans were sort of a baseline race, but their top tier unit was an airship, the best transport in the game, rather than being a powerful combat unit.

At first I didn't like that humans were just the "generic" race in Crawl. Some other races also have 0 apt in nearly everything, but their species mutations heavily impact their development and playstyle. Given the nature of Crawl, it is actually really useful to decent aptitudes in everything and be able to use (nearly) everything so that you can adapt to what the game provides. The unique ability of Crawl Hu is their adaptability.

And Hu also happen to make great "hybrid" Ne.

I'm surprised the thread got this far without mentioning humans have +1 experience aptitude. Probably because experience aptitudes are so hidden for some reason I don't understand (probably just don't have a good spot to display them).

There are a few other races with +1 exp, but it's fairly rare.

I think the reason humans are always seen as the Jack-of-all-Trades races in fantasy is because they seem the most normal to us, since they're our only reference point. A lot of people in this thread have suggested, with varying levels of sincerity, hilighting certain talents of humanity like dexterity or endurance -- but that's only the cased if we're talking relative to animals, not other sapient races.

I like calling them "A medium-sized creature prone to great ambition." If there's any trait I'd like to ascribe to humanity, it's being too big/just big enough for our britches.

FR: humans get bonus for cunning/treacherousness: increased spell power for Inner Flame, 100% stab chance for attacking enslaved monsters etc.
We have many species with aux melee attacks but we don't have any species with ranged or magic aux attacks (Dith is close though).
Unrandart: Diabolic Sling, chance to create one of the following status effects on hit monster: Inner Flame, Slow, Confuse, Berserk, Frenzy. Cannot be used with good gods.
Unrandart: Staff of Weird Love, chance to cast Enslavement (subject to MR as usual, spell power depends on damage taken) after actual spell hits the monster (works for single target spells only). Cannot be used with evil gods.

Alright, how is this for a description:

"Bland and boring, humans are masters of inconspicuousness and mediocrity. Outstandingly unremarkable, they don't excel or under-perform at any particular background."

Alternatively,

"Squishy and unfit, humans are the masters of sedentary life. They excel at paperwork, videogames and public commuting"

Probably because experience aptitudes are so hidden for some reason I don't understand (probably just don't have a good spot to display them).

?%
(or % at char creation)

"They're okay I guess."

"Mostly harmless" doesn't fit as well as I would like it to.

Yes they get xp quickly but what does it matter if im level 3 and still weaker than a character of a different race at level 1?

comebackshane wrote:Yes they get xp quickly but what does it matter if im level 3 and still weaker than a character of a different race at level 1?

By this logic I guess you'd have to buff or remove all species that aren't deep dwarves (and maybe centaurs and trolls)?

You got to level 3 earlier than "a character of different race". You can learn level 3 spells now. You have more HP and MP (or "comparable amounts" if we're talking about huge HP pool races), more MR. How is that not good?

Humans are unique in the world of Crawl. Unlike all other magic-using races, their appendix is too small and withered to store mana. Instead, they have a unique connection to the raw magic that permeates the world.

Compared to other races, Humans have a very tiny reserve of mana, but regain it at a much greater rate.

Humans are uniquely able to grow a second set of teeth. This means that only humans can eat bread rations that are over 200 000 turns old.

Zooty wrote:Humans are uniquely able to grow a second set of teeth. This means that only humans can eat bread rations that are over 200 000 turns old.

Oh god I wish my teeth are terrible. Please, please someone invent regrowing your teeth.

what if when old people's teeth fall out it's because humans are actually supposed to grow a 3rd set of teeth eventually, and what we think is the adult set of teeth is actually just the 2nd set of baby teeth. but due to a defect in human dna the 3rd set of teeth grows inside your feet or something instead of your mouth, so we don't know that it exists

If you want to make humans unique and flavorful, making them unable to cast spells is a good start.

re the title: who is this ``we?``

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=345uegSj-zQ

The Tavern

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